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Explosion at Pakistan Marriott hotel kills 40


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My point is that many people who consider themselves "progressive" say that the West is not doing enough for the Third and Fourth World. Isn't this a case in point as to why that part of the world is in such misery?

Well Yah. Poverty, corruption, murder and mayhem go hand in hand with misery. So do traffic accidents; the deaths of beloved pets; Alzhiemers; jilted lovers and a myriad of many other things...

So 'progressives' are wrong and the West is doing enough because guys like Osama Bin Laden and Tim McViegh exist in the world? Why is it that in your world the jerks get to set the standards?

I see your point. Why do Israel and the US receive such criticism for the stray civilian casualties of operations with legitimate military targets and there is not a word of criticism for the cowards that send others to their deaths to kill people whose identity they don't know or care about?

Because Israel and the USofA are not - not - terrorists. They are more-or-less democratic in nature and tend to respond to criticism/opinion polls. I don't think Osama and other terrorists give two shits about what I think or what a whole bunch of Western 'progressives' think or even what you think or wether Roger Ebert gives them a thumbs down. Do you understand the difference between the two entities - democratic nations and terrorist organizations - and why criticism of a nations government may actually have some sort of effect whereas criticism of terrorists has no value or effect whatsoever?

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The war on terror started long before 9/11.

Maybe i'm wrong but i thought i seen US pres Bush declare it shortly after 9/11.

Even when the Taliban had offered to hand over Al-Queda persons, the USA refused. Afghanistan was invaded.

Yes they had and when the US government called them on it , somehow mr Bin Ladin could not be found.....imigine lost in a country that knew the where abouts of every last dog, and donkey, but could not find someone so well known as bin ladin....

Now that the Taliban and Bin Laden are hiding out in the remote area's of Pakistan, the US is now respecting borders and not going in to get the Taliban or Bin Laden. They do not want to upset an ally on teh War on terror. So, since Pakistan can be considered harbouring terrorists. They are not 'with' us anymore... correct??

Now your fishing, but i'll bite anyways...Techinical your right, they have not been very forth coming in there actions to keep the terrorist out of Afgan....but then again we are not dealing with the average run of the mill third world country here are we, this one has nukes....so needs to be handled alittle different don't you think.....but as the leader of Afgan government would you not expect a neibouring country to police it's own borders....So could we not expect the US and NATO government along with the Afgan government to do the same, put some presure on the Pakistani government to control it's own borders....and if they can not how long must Afgan submit to these conditions before it takes action....

Such as the remote attacks across the border we see now,,,

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Why do Israel and the US receive such criticism for the stray civilian casualties of operations with legitimate military targets and there is not a word of criticism for the cowards that send others to their deaths to kill people whose identity they don't know or care about?

Yeah, you never hear or see any criticism of terrorists. Why, the weekend coverage of this story was full of sentiments like "Great job, terrorists!" and "I can haz moar bombs?" :rolleyes:

Your problem, jbg, (and it's not yours alone) is that you equate digging into the roots of terrorism, the political or social context from which it emerges, with apologizing for it. To you, it's all white hats and black hats. Very childish.

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These desparately poor countries wonder why they can never get ahead. Look what happens to anyone who deigns to visit or do business.

1 - The militants seem to have been trying to target the president, whom was supposed to have been dining in the front area of the hotel.

2 - You're talking as if the government isn't concerned with attacks like this, which is an incredibly stupid comment to make (especially in light of the fact that the Prez's wife was killed by militants, and he's now being targeted).

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This is what happens when "Democracy" is artificially imposed on one of the most radical Islamic countries.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but Pakistan was born out of the independence movement against the British Raj (along with India) and declared itself a democracy - the democratic process was never imposed on it.

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...so killing guilty people is OK?

Killing period is not acceptable in any civlized society..seeing there are no civil societies left on the planet earth - I guess it's open season on the guilty and the innocent. So what's the big deal...as any observer knows - moral neurtrality has peaked and no where in the world can justice be found - so those ameteur luntic so-called freedom fighters that murder the hell out of everyone and attempt to justify it in a moral fashion are dellusional as per usual - plus you really don't know who is blowing up who - Had some short communications with a young intelligent officer during the early stages of the Iraq crisis. He said that American operatives on occassion would car bomb a market place hoping to keep the tribal factions at each others throat.. Eventually this young man lost an eye and leg...and - he lost heart in the system when his commander scratched out "American looking and speaking suspects" - and inserted "Arabs"...You really don't know what the hell is going on these days. Liars and lieing seem to rule.

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Now let me ask you a question - can you name a country neighboring Israel, or even in Israel's vicinity (should we go as far as the continent?) with whom the Zionist state maintains friendly economic, political, or any other kind of relations?
Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, India, Morocco, to name five.
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but Pakistan was born out of the independence movement against the British Raj (along with India) and declared itself a democracy - the democratic process was never imposed on it.
Good point.
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But you go beyond that and make the bold statement that someone actually called up Musharraf and threaten him with " Pakistan would be 'bombed back into the stone-age" if he did not comply.... Could you please provide a quote on that on who called, when they called you know some basic facts....

Musharraf's book, 'In the Line of Fire', is the source of the bold statement I made, you can read about it in this article: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2021516.cms

then the US government had the nerve to ask the Pakistani government to control thier own borders, to keep thier problems from spilling into afganistan....

But see, the problems at the border weren't there before the war started. We go in there, mess up Afghanistan and spill the war into Pakistan, and then have the nerve to ask the Pakistani government to control their own borders.

Capitalism and the free market are what built most western countries, if you feel guilty about having so much then move, another great option of Capitalism and the free market your not forced to take part....And while you are quick to piont our our shortfalls you neglected to piont out that any of it's good pionts, maybe you where saving that for another post.....

This "if you don't like it, you can leave" argument is really original, you should be proud you came up with it. You should try and recognize the purpose people like me have in society. Unions. Abolitionism. Civil rights. Women's rights. Gay rights... If it were up to people like you and we all just settled for what we have, you wouldn't have all these things you take for granted.

And yeah, let's talk about the good points of capitalism. While we're at it, want to talk about the positive aspects of slavery? There's quite a few positive things it, I'm sure.

Anyway, I won't have time in the next few days to keep following up on this, so this will likely be last post in the topic. That should be alright, I've gotten across what I've wanted to.

As a final comment: What happened on September 11, 2001, was not the fault of the Afghan people. 3,000 innocent people died that day. Almost 30,000 innocent people have died in Afghanistan since then. This war isn't a "good war", as opposed to the war in Iraq. There is no "good" war. The motives here are just as misconstrued, the people of Afghanistan are not al-Qaeda or the Taleban.

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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but Pakistan was born out of the independence movement against the British Raj (along with India) and declared itself a democracy - the democratic process was never imposed on it.

Thanks, I didn't know that.

Do we need to argue whether the "War on Terror" was imposed on Pakistan?

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Musharraf's book, 'In the Line of Fire', is the source of the bold statement I made, you can read about it in this article:

Thats some source, Musharraf would not confirm it in front of the US pres, because of a book contract....your source does not even say in what context is was given .....but i guess you read the book, oh wait it's not due out yet, according to your source .....give me a break. give us all a break....where not buying it either....

Reporters, columnists and bloggers weren't buying the story though, and subjected the promo to much ridicule on TV and in print. "Musharraf turned an appearance yesterday with President Bush into a cheesy attempt to hawk his memoirs..." the New York Daily News reported.
But see, the problems at the border weren't there before the war started. We go in there, mess up Afghanistan and spill the war into Pakistan, and then have the nerve to ask the Pakistani government to control their own borders.

I think you should read some history about Federally Administered Tribal Areas, and the North-West Frontier Province ,of Pakistan it suggests that there was problems in these areas dating back to 1979, sorry but thats well before the twin tower attacks, in fact it's well before any US or NATO coalition decided to attack in fact it even sugests that most of the area is control by pakistani taliban...imigine that.

1979-1991

[edit] Soviet invasion

The decade-long war in Afghanistan had a negative impact on the tribal areas and their infrastructure. With Pakistan becoming the frontline state in the war of resistance against the Soviet forces, the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan virtually ceased to exist. The tribal belt became the main supply route for the Mujahideen fighting the Soviets. The tribal areas provided a base for the Mujahideen, and weapons, supplies, and other war sustenance efforts were routed from these areas.[citation needed]

Large numbers of Afghan refugees arrived in the FATA, placing pressure on the local resources. In some cases, refugees outnumbered the local population. The war also brought a culture of guns and drugs.[citation needed] During this period, the economy of the tribal areas, which was already underdeveloped, suffered enormously.

The local administration, which already exercised only nominal control over the tribal population, was rendered totally ineffective under the impact of the ongoing war in Afghanistan. The result was that all kinds of illegal activity, like smuggling, drug trafficking and gun running, flourished in these areas.

tribal areas.

And with everything that was on going it was not until 2007 that the Pakistani government decided to get serious....

2007 anti-militancy campaign

On June 4, 2007, the National Security Council of Pakistan met to decide the fate of Waziristan and take up a number of political and administrative decisions to control "Talibanization" of the area. The meeting was chaired by President Pervez Musharraf and it was attended by the Chief Ministers and Governors of all 4 provinces. They discussed the deteriorating law and order situation and the threat posed to state security. To crush the armed militancy in the Tribal regions and the NWFP, the government decided to intensify and reinforce law enforcement and military activity, take action against certain madrassahs, and jam illegal FM radio stations.[13]

waristan

This "if you don't like it, you can leave" argument is really original, you should be proud you came up with it. You should try and recognize the purpose people like me have in society. Unions. Abolitionism. Civil rights. Women's rights. Gay rights... If it were up to people like you and we all just settled for what we have, you wouldn't have all these things you take for granted.

Actually i did'nt come up with it, so i won't take credit....I do recognize the purpose of people that challange our everyday practices and way of life, and i do think that some people who invoke change for the better are productive and nessicary for our society to grow.....but i think you give yourself way to much credit...

i don't see your posts as challanging our everyday practices or our way of life, but rather as whinning, coming across as someone who is not happy with our way of life, in fact blaming it for some of the worlds more serious problems....your a finger pionter....you offer no solutions,in fact you don't really even piont out the problem....except to say our entire way of life is why the third world is the way it is today....

And while you pat your self on the back, wrap yourself up in the flag and start including yourself as one of the great evisionaires of our country, you seem to forget that this country was built by and defended by us little common people that put aside our lifes, to ensure that those rights and freedoms you say you gave us which are really just fancy words strung together and mean nothing until they are put into action and defended by us common folks.

SO really what i'm trying to say is sit back down, and put your hands together for the real hero's of the nation....the little people....

And yeah, let's talk about the good points of capitalism. While we're at it, want to talk about the positive aspects of slavery? There's quite a few positive things it, I'm sure

I'm sure there is, if your pionting to the fact that we are all slaves in todays world, all chasing the almighty dollar then yes lets talk about it....my slavery has paid for 3 kids education, a new home and guess what just purchased a new dodge truck, that eats gas like it's poring out of the ground....and you know what i one happy SOB....i'm sure most Canadians can share a good slavery story with us....But for some reason i don't think your so lucky....or maybe your luckier than most and have reached that piont you have everything and don't see the piont....well i'm not there yet...

Anyway, I won't have time in the next few days to keep following up on this, so this will likely be last post in the topic. That should be alright, I've gotten across what I've wanted to.

As a final comment: What happened on September 11, 2001, was not the fault of the Afghan people. 3,000 innocent people died that day. Almost 30,000 innocent people have died in Afghanistan since then. This war isn't a "good war", as opposed to the war in Iraq. There is no "good" war. The motives here are just as misconstrued, the people of Afghanistan are not al-Qaeda or the Taleban.

I'm still looking for the piont actually, help an old guy out.....your right it was not the Afgan peoples fault, they where held like hostages by thier government of the day, which decided to play chicken with the US and NATO and lost....Nations must pay the price for thier misdeed....The Taliban and Al-Qaeda are still trying to force the Majority of Afgans into a way of life and they want nothing to do with....Our Nation has decided that we will help with both crushing those little scumbags into dust, plus assist where we can to re build a nation....it's the crushing the scumbags into dust that you have a problem with , i know you intelects are a bit squimish....but if you have seen with your own eyes what this group of men have done to thier own people, you may not be of the same mind frame...Holy shit your right again, there is no good war, all wars bring about nothing of any real value except death and destruction, it's out of the ashes of war that good things grow...things like freedom, basic rights for all, hey even the right to post shit on the internet....

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So we go from a suicide bombing in Islamabad to Israel.

Incredible.

This was a strike at the heart of the western presence in Pakistan. Hotels like the Marriott are like Western ex-pat clubs. Western ex-pats congregate around places like this. They become social clubs. Watch Hotel Ruanda. Lays it all out.

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Thats some source, Musharraf would not confirm it in front of the US pres, because of a book contract....your source does not even say in what context is was given .....but i guess you read the book, oh wait it's not due out yet, according to your source .....give me a break. give us all a break....where not buying it either....

Wow. I don't even know how to react to this. The book came out in 2006. That's an old article talking about it before it was released. I don't understand how you didn't figure that out, the article is dated September 23, 2006.

You're a complete and utter idiot. I didn't read the rest of your post, partly because I don't have the time, but mostly because you're an idiot.

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Wow. I don't even know how to react to this. The book came out in 2006. That's an old article talking about it before it was released. I don't understand how you didn't figure that out, the article is dated September 23, 2006.

Ok i'll own that mistake , did'nt notice the date, that makes me an idiot so be it...i asked you for a quote which would prove that bold statement "you made was in fact true, and you gave us something that proves nothing....

You're a complete and utter idiot. I didn't read the rest of your post, partly because I don't have the time, but mostly because you're an idiot.

I think you did read the entire post, and thats the best you can come up with is idiot, but then again is'nt that what you call everyone that does not share your opinions or thoughts......i know you busy guy, and got important things to do, so really what did you think of the rest of the post....you see all i'm doing is sitting in the back of some LAV (light armoured veh) (for you intelect types) here in Afgan, setting some facts straight getting ready to watch the sun come up....

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Honestly, with Pakistan having the terrorist problems that it does, if I were a security guard and a big truck came crashing into the security booth and a small explosion went off, I would think that something was up and would be running for the hill, not grabbing a fire extinguisher and trying to put out the subsequent fire.

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Inter net is every where here. across the road from KAF is a Afgan inter net cafe, i don't recommned the coffee, Can't really comment on what type of inter net we have here, lets just say it would be the same as home, some is military, some of it's provided by Canadian companies....

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Inter net is every where here. across the road from KAF is a Afgan inter net cafe, i don't recommned the coffee, Can't really comment on what type of inter net we have here, lets just say it would be the same as home, some is military, some of it's provided by Canadian companies....

Cool. I bet it helps :)

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