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A Hamas Parable


jbg

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How is it bad for Israel given the US has much to lose as well and, what Islamic roots does Obama have given he is Christian?

It is bad for Israel in that Israel's big brother is sending the message that "I no longer will support you in whatever you do".

Obama's Christian roots are not as deep as some given his being born a Muslim, attending a Muslim school early in life, and I believe it is called "life perspective" ala MS. Sotomayor.

Edited by ft.niagara
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You haven't done anything to explain what effort the Gazan government is making at economic development. Other than gratuitously killing people?

It may very well be an incompetent government with a narrow militaristic agenda. Which in no way exonerates past injustices that created the conflict; or ongoing injustices of occupation and ever sprawling illegal settlements; or complicity of foreign states, this country including, in the continuation of conflict by giving support to one side instead of insisting on a fair settlement.

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You haven't done anything to explain what effort the Gazan government is making at economic development. Other than gratuitously killing people?

the situation is not as simple as you are wording it.

when you have no control of your borders, airbase and economic relationship with other nations, then you have no way of improving your situation economically.

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It is bad for Israel in that Israel's big brother is sending the message that "I no longer will support you in whatever you do".

Obama's Christian roots are not as deep as some given his being born a Muslim, attending a Muslim school early in life, and I believe it is called "life perspective" ala MS. Sotomayor.

The US never unconditionally supported Israel in whatever they did so how is this different? As for Obama's Muslim roots, you have still yet to show them as attending a school as a child hardly qualifies one to be anything other than a kid who attended a school for a few years.

I think your peace plan is way too complicated and drawn out ever to reach a table of negotiation, and the "rich beyond their wildest dreams" part is really cute.

In what way is it too complicated? As for drawn out, it is quite the opposite as both Palestinians and Israelis would gain immediate benefits rather than results that took years of benchmarks to achieve before land would be turned over for use.

And tell me, why would you believe that getting rent from land usage in an area where tourism would flourish under peaceful conditions would not be an economic boon?

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It may very well be an incompetent government with a narrow militaristic agenda.

Hamas is a terrorist organization that happened to win a local election by killing and maiming its opponents.

Which in no way exonerates past injustices that created the conflict; or ongoing injustices of occupation and ever sprawling illegal settlements; or complicity of foreign states, this country including, in the continuation of conflict by giving support to one side instead of insisting on a fair settlement.

Jerusalem wasn't always a Muslim holy place. That came into being AFTER the conquest in 637 AD and the Law of Omar (paying the Jizya to avoid slaughter, etc). Omar decided Jerusalem happened to be the very spot where Mohammed accended to heaven w/ angel Gabriel (the 'furthest mosque' in the Koran). Right ontop of the old Jewish Temple, infact. Before Omar's decision, the 'furthest mosque' was just an allegory. Now it was real! Omar proceeded to commision the first Al-Aqsa mosque (then known as Omar's mosque) ontop of the former Jewish temple. It was in partial ruin after being used by the Romans as a garbage dump.

A the Church Lady would say...

How convienient...

Mohammed, of course, never set foot in Jerusalem during his lifetime. He was aware of the place's importance to the Jews and Christians, though. Before Muslims had to pray 5 times per day towards Mecca, the direction of prayer used to be towards Jerusalem. This was what can be called Islam's first big PR campaign in order to get the Jews and Christians to join Islam; the Koran essentially being a version of the Bible with changes and additions. When Mohammed was rebuffed by the two other religions, direction of prayer switched to Mecca.

Re: fair settlement.

Both sides had a state ready to go in 1947. The Arabs had already recieved Syria, Jordan, etc from the former Allied mandates. But the greedy fellow, who we're no longer supposed to mention as it upsets folks like you and dub, wanted all that remained for his pet project, Arab Palestine. He went to war over it (along with every other Arab/Muslim nation he rallied) and they lost. Lost badly...lost VERY badly.

But some wish to reward aggression. The war didn't work? No worries, leftie-hiptards will make sure the dirty Jews give the Arabs what doesn't belong to them.

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Hamas got in there because the world was sending a billion bucks to Israel - and leaving Palistine impoverished - and virutal slaves to the Israelis...Hamas got in their by playing social worker - by providing care - with that care they seduced the Palistinians - If the west and Israel were not so cheap - they could have bribed the people instead of letting these jerks do it - the problem is about land and economy- not ideology.

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Hamas got in there because the world was sending a billion bucks to Israel - and leaving Palistine impoverished - and virutal slaves to the Israelis...Hamas got in their by playing social worker - by providing care - with that care they seduced the Palistinians - If the west and Israel were not so cheap - they could have bribed the people instead of letting these jerks do it - the problem is about land and economy- not ideology.

Now here's a hippy opinion. It's the West's fault for not pouring enough money on the fire. Spend time in San Francisco during the 60s, Oleg? Electric koolaid acid tests?

:lol:

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the situation is not as simple as you are wording it.

when you have no control of your borders, airbase and economic relationship with other nations, then you have no way of improving your situation economically.

Port Roberts, Washington (link) and Minnesota's Northwest Angle (link) are both surrounded by Canada. Their residents are not firing missiles into Canada.

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Port Roberts, Washington (link) and Minnesota's Northwest Angle (link) are both surrounded by Canada. Their residents are not firing missiles into Canada.

Time and time again, this and other excuses re: the Palestinian Arabs is used to justify their violent ways. Oppression, poverty, lack of control, etc. But, these are 'victim excuses'. These being the type of excuses one uses to justify one's position. Similar to someone on welfare blaming everyone but themselves for their lot in life.

So we hear crap like: suicide bombers originated because of the lack of hope in the Palestinian Arab territories. Using this logic, 1000s of Canadians should at this moment be putting on suicide vests due to 'lack of hope' after watching their lifestyles and pensions circle the toilet bowl.

What does make sense is that a religion with a particularly strong vision of a 'perfect afterlife' has managed to convince a good % of the local population that death isn't final. Therefore there's no real risk to killing one's self in the name of Allah. Your spot in heaven awaits. Hamas makes no secret about this, either...as this video shows.

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The establishement of Israel was a violent affair remember. From a Christian perspective as far as Israel and Palisitine are concerned can be summed up in this pharse "The poor (stupid) will always be with us". Christ was not talking about poor materially but the poor in mind and spirit and in basic intelligence - any religion that suggests that killing in the name of God is stating that God is not all mighty and is weak and needs human assistance - this is an insult to the concept of God - He is either God or he is not - Jews - Palistinians - Both - have it wrong. Both are stupid - if they were not these problems would have been sloved 40 years ago - most certainly the poor are with us to this day.

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The establishement of Israel was a violent affair remember.

No it wasn't. The people danced in the street and sang the Hatikva. What was violent was the Grand Mufti's reaction to the creation of Israel.

Edited by DogOnPorch
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Who gives a crap what they do to a Islamic terrorist???...........NOBODY!!

Torture the hell out of the filthy swine............they would do no less.

Islamic Terrorists can hardly be regarded as people in the first place! Torture the info out of them then dispose of them!

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No it wasn't. The people dance in the street and sang the Hatikva. What was violent was the Grand Mufti's reaction to the creation of Israel.

I should come in singing and dancing into the local biker bar - and pull up a chair and command the place - what were these people thinking? You have to be sensitive to others around you and adapt to a type of mutual co-operation - Israel was suffered from delerium and joy at the establishment of a "homeland" - they were so self centered that they did not bother looking around and evaluating their position in the middle east - of if putting up a fence or house might offend a neighour - not saying it was their fault - but they could have been more sensitive - and ASSIMULATED. Instead joy took over as did their sense of historical entitlement - You can't leave home for a thousand years and expect people to move over when you decide to return - you must enter with grace and care - Jew traditionally are exclustionary - that was the mistake - and their neighbours saw this...

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I should come in singing and dancing into the local biker bar - and pull up a chair and command the place - what were these people thinking? You have to be sensitive to others around you and adapt to a type of mutual co-operation - Israel was suffered from delerium and joy at the establishment of a "homeland" - they were so self centered that they did not bother looking around and evaluating their position in the middle east - of if putting up a fence or house might offend a neighour - not saying it was their fault - but they could have been more sensitive - and ASSIMULATED. Instead joy took over as did their sense of historical entitlement - You can't leave home for a thousand years and expect people to move over when you decide to return - you must enter with grace and care - Jew traditionally are exclustionary - that was the mistake - and their neighbours saw this...

Nonsense. The "Zionists" knew exactly what they were getting into as did the "Pallys" when they went to bed with the Nazis.

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Nonsense. The "Zionists" knew exactly what they were getting into as did the "Pallys" when they went to bed with the Nazis.

Don't mention that aloud - it's not polically correct and you may suffer some concocted artifical discrimination. - It all goes back to Austria - the Nazi movement and the Zionist dream...what are we to do - say that all parties involved are not legitimate? I was effect - when I read of the first major riff that took place in about 1890 - the Zionists met in Austria - and a feud errupted at that meeting that carries to this day - maybe they had all better go back to Austria and settle the matter - seems like unfinished buisness - and Jews persecuting Jews is problematic for all.

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As well, if one wants an accurate picture of the 'Holy Land' circa 1869, look no further than Samuel Clemens's (Mark Twain) "Innocents Abroad" where he travels all through the Mediterranean region describing what he sees in vivid detail.

Full work here...

http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/TwaInno.html

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Don't mention that aloud - it's not polically correct and you may suffer some concocted artifical discrimination. - It all goes back to Austria - the Nazi movement and the Zionist dream...what are we to do - say that all parties involved are not legitimate? I was effect - when I read of the first major riff that took place in about 1890 - the Zionists met in Austria - and a feud errupted at that meeting that carries to this day - maybe they had all better go back to Austria and settle the matter - seems like unfinished buisness - and Jews persecuting Jews is problematic for all.

Gee...I wonder why the Jews wanted out of Europe? Rain?

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Gee...I wonder why the Jews wanted out of Europe? Rain?

Not the rain - they had a few brothers that were bucking for power - I personally think that there were two camps - those that were secularists and atheistic - and those that were believers waiting for the messiah - national socialism would not tolerate people that believed in God - they would not make good members of the group - because they would not comply nor submit to these socialist theorists....wonder why the Ukrainians wanted out of the Ukraine - 16 million genocided though starvation and execution....I really am not into this whole poor Jewish thing - I care for all humanity if it is being oppressed or genocided in part - My point was - there is a division within the Jewish community and they had better resolve their problems- the world is tired of their bikering - as they bicker - the irritation increases - Frankly with all due respect - time to assumulate also..that is the only route to survival in the long run - nukes will not preserve these people for eternity - eventually the fire will burn...I hope not.

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Who gives a crap what they do to a Islamic terrorist???...........NOBODY!!

Torture the hell out of the filthy swine............they would do no less.

Islamic Terrorists can hardly be regarded as people in the first place! Torture the info out of them then dispose of them!

Personally, I don't think torture is really our "bag". I don't think you do either, really. But, like me, you feel the frustration of having an enemy that wants to kill you but doesn't want to fight in the tradtional sense. The British felt this with the Provos...The Ceylonese/Sri Lankins with the Tamils...Russians with the Chechyan Muslims...Israel with the Hammies and Hezzies...etc, etc.

The terrorist or partisan or freedom fighter knows he/she enjoys an advantage only if he/she appears to be one of the regular civilian crowd (no uniforms for one).

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Not the rain - they had a few brothers that were bucking for power - I personally think that there were two camps - those that were secularists and atheistic - and those that were believers waiting for the messiah - national socialism would not tolerate people that believed in God - they would not make good members of the group - because they would not comply nor submit to these socialist theorists....wonder why the Ukrainians wanted out of the Ukraine - 16 million genocided though starvation and execution....I really am not into this whole poor Jewish thing - I care for all humanity if it is being oppressed or genocided in part - My point was - there is a division within the Jewish community and they had better resolve their problems- the world is tired of their bikering - as they bicker - the irritation increases - Frankly with all due respect - time to assumulate also..that is the only route to survival in the long run - nukes will not preserve these people for eternity - eventually the fire will burn...I hope not.

Oleg...that's crap and you know it.

The Jews had a rotten time in Europe post 70AD. While loved by the nobility @ times due to Usery Laws, they were hated by the average Joe for being 'Christ Killers' as per the old Blood Libel.

When not blaming the Jews for things like the Black Death, they were conducting regular pogroms for reasons ranging from cows not giving milk to eclipses of the Sun. Another favorite trick was to take out huge loans from local Jews then get together with local nobility to bannish them from the Kingdom/Duchy/Barony/What-Have-You thus forfeiting the loans. Great fun...but as a Jew, I'd be rather miffed.

The majority of Jews all started heading east towards the Kingdom of Poland and surrounds due to the friendliness of the rulers (like the various Kasimirs) towards them. Once there, they thrived...I'll let Ralph Fiennes tell the rest of the tale.

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Personally, I don't think torture is really our "bag". I don't think you do either, really. But, like me, you feel the frustration of having an enemy that wants to kill you but doesn't want to fight in the tradtional sense. The British felt this with the Provos...The Ceylonese/Sri Lankins with the Tamils...Russians with the Chechyan Muslims...Israel with the Hammies and Hezzies...etc, etc.

Very true, but at the intellectual level, I don't know why we must entertain a small detour from the very broad spectrum of control, violence, and 'killin just to appease civilized sensibilities, particularly given that the attributes of "torture" have taken on so large a scope for political reasons.

The terrorist or partisan or freedom fighter knows he/she enjoys an advantage only if he/she appears to be one of the regular civilian crowd (no uniforms for one).

Correct...the rules of the game do not favor those who play by the rules.

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The majority of Jews all started heading east towards the Kingdom of Poland and surrounds due to the friendliness of the rulers (like the various Kasimirs) towards them. Once there, they thrived...I'll let Ralph Fiennes tell the rest of the tale.
Until the Polish people gave the Nazis unparelled cooperation that is. Poland's kill percentage was actually higher than Germany's.
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Until the Polish people gave the Nazis unparelled cooperation that is. Poland's kill percentage was actually higher than Germany's.

Half of them were non-Jewish Poles, systematically eliminated - intelligentsia/professional class ... democide:

The Soviets arrested and imprisoned about 500,000 Poles during 1939-1941, including former officials, officers, and natural "enemies of the people," like the clergy. This was about one in ten of all adult males,1 and murdered. But those the Soviets only arrested and inprisoned were lucky. They also murdered about 65,000 Poles in this terror.2 In one notorious massacre, in incredibly cold calculation, the NKVD-the Soviet secret police--systematically executed possibly 14,471 former polish officers, including political leaders, government officials, and intellectuals.3 Some 4,254 of these were uncovered in mass graves in Katyn Forest by the Nazis in 1941, who then invited an international group of neutral representatives and doctors to study the corpses and confirm Soviet guilt.4

Then there were the Soviet deportations. During 1939 to 1941 the Soviets deported 1,200,000 Poles deported to the Soviet Union for forced labor or resettlement, of which perhaps 146,000 died. This number does not include those shot for failing or straying out of line during deportation, or disobeying an order.5

To all this polish misery, pain, and death we must add what the Germans did in the Poland they ruled. They shot former politicians, and government, cultural, professional, and intellectual leaders, or sent them to die in concentration camps. Just in the city of Bydgoszcz, for example, Germans murdered about 10,000 non-Jewish civilians in four months of occupation. And from 1939 to 1941, they deported en mass about 1,600,000 Poles, including 400,000 Jews. About 700,000 Poles were sent to Germany for forced labor,6 many to die there. And the most infamous German death camps had been located in Poland. Overall, during German occupation of pre-war Polish territory, 1939-1945, the Germans murdered 3,900,000 to 6,400,000 Poles, probably about 5,400,000, including near 3,000,000 Jews.7

Edited by tango
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