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Michael Ignatieff....A Fine American !


bush_cheney2004

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I see nothing wrong with it in the least. What's the difference whether he works in Canada or the US? He'll be paying his taxes and making a contribution to society either way, wouldn't he?
But he's not showing he has any stake in Canada other than winning office.
What if an Ontarian moves to Qubec to work? Does that make him a traitor to Ontario?
Remember, those are provinces, not countries.
Should Canadians forfeit potential opportunities abroad just so they can be Canadian?
Yes, if they want to be PM.
Now don't get me wrong; I'm all for people paying their taxes, and have no issue with raising taxes on the more successful to help the less fortunate. But at the end of the day, we have the freedom to leave.
Again, Joe Ordinary is not Opposition Leader hoping to become the Prime Minister.
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For some reason I just don't trust Ignatieff. I get the feeling he sees his Russian heritage as his divine right to rule as some type of Canadian Tsar.

I don't agree with everything the federal Tories do either, but I like Harper. I find most of the criticism leveled at him is sheer speculaltion and fantasy. It's easy to say he has some hidden agenda, but impossible to prove it.

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Isn't there value to the fact that Iggy being out of the country for "X" years, doesn't that make him more experience with the world outside of Canada and have an open-mind with other countries? I would think having friends, knowing other people in England and the US would be a plus.

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Isn't there value to the fact that Iggy being out of the country for "X" years, doesn't that make him more experience with the world outside of Canada and have an open-mind with other countries? I would think having friends, knowing other people in England and the US would be a plus.

You may be right but my own experience with people says that very few Canadians will agree with you. Again, this is one of those "how do you feel about it" issues, rather than one of "is it technically legal?".

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Isn't there value to the fact that Iggy being out of the country for "X" years, doesn't that make him more experience with the world outside of Canada and have an open-mind with other countries? I would think having friends, knowing other people in England and the US would be a plus.

Sure, as long as you don't care so much about a firm understanding of Canadian interests and like the idea of an ex-pat just coming home to take advantage of the very domestic politics he left. It reminds me of so called third world nations embracing well traveled ex-pats after all hell breaks loose.

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What I am looking for from Ignatieff is an insight into where he and his Liberals want to take this country that is significantly different from the Conservative view. On that score, he has not been accommodating or convincing.
I wouldn't trust anyone who can title a speech "Fearlessly Living in a Fearless World". Even if Ignatieff proposed a brilliant policy, I fear that he would change direction three months later.
Looking at it that way, Ignatieff's ability to develop an emotional affinity with the people surrounding him is a positive.
But has he done that? Or is he just an empty Zelig?
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I think you're missing the point. It's obvious you like Ignatieff and so you'll cut him some slack about being out of the country so much of his life.

I'm not very impressed with Ignatieff. besides, I vote candidate, not party, and Iggy's not in my riding. Last election, I leaned Green.

However, politics is not a courtroom, where we can defend with technicalities. It's all about perceptions. How will the average Canadian feel?

I agree. Unfortunately, Canadian politics has indeed lost much substance.

Remember, Ignatieff didn't just spend a few years in the US. He spent almost his entire adult life! What would someone's chances be of becoming premier of Quebec, if although he was born there he had grown up in Ontario?

I see your point. If Quebecers rejected a person just because he'd lived out of province would be silly. They should vote on his character, not on where he's been.

I'm starting to agree. Once the campaign writ is dropped the Tories are going to have a field day with this stuff! It's just the sort of thing to make the ordinary Canadian feel a total disconnect with Ignatieff. His speeches in the US are guaranteed to fan the flames of anti-Americanism latent in us all.

As for political cheap shots, I can agree. If I lived in Igggy's riding, I'd be hard pressed to vote for him, but where he's lived woudl play little role in that. If anything, having lived abroad coudl be advantageous in giving the candidate a different perspective that other MPs could lack. For example, Iggy could have applied soem good American ideas to the Canadian system. Instead, he just comes across as a miltarist.

The Liberals seem to value academia more than the common touch. They choose philosopher kings and not a barber shop sage.

I'll agree that formal education should play little role in the quality of a candidate. After all, remember Goebels? He had a PhD! And look at Tolstoy. He was a university drop out, yet his phylosophical works had a strong influence on Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. It's not the degree that counts, as that's just a piece of paper. What really matters is the content of his character, reflective of a deeper moral education, not academic.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong. It's just the way it is. To many Canadians Ignatieff is going to look more American than Canadian, or at least not an ordinary Canadian.

I agree, and that's a shame. I woudl like Canadians to vote on the content of the character of their local candidates, and not worry about stereotyped perceptions of party leaders. But, alas, what can we do?

This WILL hurt him! How much? I'm not certain. Still, it's definitely a weak spot.

I agree.

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But he's not showing he has any stake in Canada other than winning office.

You have some point there. But again, in principle, a canadian could live abroad and still genuinely care, giving some of his money to charities, etc. I'm not saying this is the case with Iggy, but still. Or it could also be simply that he has many friends in the US and is used to it there. Though then I'd agree that the US should change its policy requiring runners up for prez to be born in the US, thus allowing him to run for US prez. You do have a point there. It would make more sense for an immigrant to Canada to run for MP than for an ex-pat Canadian.

Remember, those are provinces, not countries.

The same principle applies.

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Though then I'd agree that the US should change its policy requiring runners up for prez to be born in the US, thus allowing him to run for US prez. You do have a point there. It would make more sense for an immigrant to Canada to run for MP than for an ex-pat Canadian.
Thanks for the compliments.

What you should realize is that any proposals for altering the "born in the U.S.A." rule provide for lengthy periods of U.S. citizenship. Ignattief would most certainly not benefit.

Where is it any G-d given right for a "man without a country" to be a political leader?

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Thanks for the compliments.

What you should realize is that any proposals for altering the "born in the U.S.A." rule provide for lengthy periods of U.S. citizenship. Ignattief would most certainly not benefit.

Where is it any G-d given right for a "man without a country" to be a political leader?

No man is ever without a country. His country may change at times, but he is enver without a country.

I remember the story of Verda Majo (pen name. her real anme was Hasegawa Teru.

If you can read Esperanto, French, Japanese, or Chinese, you can read her story here:

http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verda_Majo

In summary, she worked on the Chinese side in the Sino-Japanese War, not out of imposition, but out of conviction. She was convinced that China was right in this war and that Japan was wrong. Was she a traitor? Well, to her nation, on a superficial level, yes. But to her deeper principles, no.

Could she have gone back to Japan to run for office. Certainly not. Even today only a handful of Japanese respect what she did. At that time, an even smaller percentage of Japanese would have resepcted her. Zhou Enlai, though, when he'd met her, once said that she was a true patriot, a true lover of her nation, referring likely to the idea that by standing up for her principles against her nation, she was essentially holding her nation to a higher standard and, in this way, doing her nation a great favour. By the way, few Chinese even know of her, but those who do have a great respect for her. Even though many Chinese hate Japan, she can serve as a bridge between them, a kind of Japanese Bethune if you will.

My point in all of this is that we should look at a wider patriotism beyond our own borders. Here's what Verda Majo once wrote in her 'En Chinio Batalanta" (In China Fighting)...

Oh, good news. I just found a short version of her story in English here:

http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/149180.htm

OK, as I was saying, in her 'En Chinio Batalanta', she wrote...

Sorry again, a more detailed version:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/esperanto/41972

Now as for her quote:

"For us Esperantists, nationality is not absolute. It means only difference of language, custom, culture, skin color, etc. We look upon ourselves as brothers in one great family, "mankind." For us this is no theory, it is a feeling. Externally, we are joined by a common language; internally, by a common feeling. We may love our own nation. But this love is not such as cannot coexist with love and respect for other nations."

I do believe that one's place of residence and one's love of country are by no means necessarily linked. Hasegawa Teru even fought against her own nation out of principle.

Now I'm certainly not equating Iggy with her by no means. She is considered a hero by many, had sacrificed her life for a cause, and in the process laid the groundwork for a possible future friendship between China, Korea, and Japan.

Iggy doesn't even compare. All I'm saying though is that Iggy's place of residence bears no relevence to his qualities as an MP. The content of his character, and only the content of his character, should be judged in the process. Based on that, he still fails in my book. But at least on a relevent footing.

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Who? I'm a Canadian. A PM who's not a sitting MP does not get a vote in Parliament.

No. That you've had some examples such as Turner. Our President does not get a vote in Congress. A Vice-President only gets to vote to break a tie.

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So I'd forgot about Turner. Thanks for the reminder. I was out of country for a few years too.
That's what I meant by:
A Yank teaching a Canadian about their history?

Ha.

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