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I just heard on the news that Toronto won the Pan Am Games in 2015.

No online link yet. More to come...

Are my taxes paying for it either directly or indirectly? By directly, I mean the government actually giving money towards the Pan Am games. By indirectly, I mean the government allowing the games to use public facilities free of charge or even under the market price going for the use of those facilities.

If my taxes aren't going towards it in any way, I'm happy for them.

Otherwise...

Down with the games!

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Are my taxes paying for it either directly or indirectly? By directly, I mean the government actually giving money towards the Pan Am games. By indirectly, I mean the government allowing the games to use public facilities free of charge or even under the market price going for the use of those facilities.

If my taxes aren't going towards it in any way, I'm happy for them.

Otherwise...

Down with the games!

I'm surprised you can ask the question, Machjo! OF COURSE there's huge amounts of tax money from all levels of government!

Look at what happened in Montreal with Expo 67 and their stadium. The official line was that tax money would be an investment. Afterwards the facilities would more than pay back that investment by renting out to private sports teams, concerts and the like.

In actuality, what happened is that cost over-runs put the cost at several multiples of the original estimates and the revenue in the years after was nowhere near enough. The media was reporting a few months ago that Montreal had finally paid its Olympic debt, more than 30 years after the fact!

This financial snafu has been the case of virtually every such scenario anywhere in Canada, ever! Try googling up the history of the Toronto Skydome financing if you want an eyeful.

Everyone wants to get in front of the parade. They all know that ordinary folks will be taxed for years but everyone is so excited about the glamour of the event that no one wants to think about financial reality. It's assumed that the official line will prove true and when it doesn't - it's several years later. Lots of time for denial, evasion and outright lying by the politicos.

If the question posed is "Is it worth it, regardless of the high cost?" that's one issue. Asking "Will it cost us more than you're telling us?" is simply naive.

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I'm surprised you can ask the question, Machjo! OF COURSE there's huge amounts of tax money from all levels of government!

Of course. My question was mainly rhetorical to get all the Pan Am fans out there thinking with their heads rather than just their nationalistic chest beating.

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Now don't get me wrong. I'm all for paying my taxes for worthy causes, educaiton, etc. But is anyone going to die or suffer dearly in any way if we don't have the Pan Am games? I think not.

Really? That is your bottom line? Let's get rid of symphonies and art galleries while we are at it.

Sports have been around as long as anything else in all human cultures from every corner of the planet. Sports, athletic games and play is just as every bit important as "education" and greatly contribute to life long physical and emotional health, the economy and social order.

For many athletes, the PAN-AM Games are a stage where they can put all those years of hard work in minor sports to a test of competition against their counterparts from other regions of the Americas as a prelude to Olympic competition and beyond. Hopefully the staging of the PAN-AM Games will inspire more youngsters to become involved in athletic sports and games and avoid the sorry state of lard-ass-ism that compels people to sit in front of a computer and bitch on the Internet.

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Really? That is your bottom line? Let's get rid of symphonies and art galleries while we are at it.

Sports have been around as long as anything else in all human cultures from every corner of the planet. Sports, athletic games and play is just as every bit important as "education" and greatly contribute to life long physical and emotional health, the economy and social order.

For many athletes, the PAN-AM Games are a stage where they can put all those years of hard work in minor sports to a test of competition against their counterparts from other regions of the Americas as a prelude to Olympic competition and beyond. Hopefully the staging of the PAN-AM Games will inspire more youngsters to become involved in athletic sports and games and avoid the sorry state of lard-ass-ism that compels people to sit in front of a computer and bitch on the Internet.

Not that it's any of your business, but my buttux is firm enough thank you very much.

Now who ever said all worthy things must receive government support. If that's the case, what about clothes, food, shelter? Should all of that be free too? I'd say only when it comes down to necessity, but certainly not across the borad. At that stage, we'd be looking at a nearly communist economic system, and we've seen how well that worked out in the good ol' USSR.

As for sports, I'd categorize it in the same category as food, clothing, shelter, etc. Yes, it's necessary, but should have government invovlement only where necessary, such as in school physical education. I'm all for that. That's not the same though as benefitting big business over it either. There's a balance to everything. Such large scale events could be handled by the private sector just fine. Sitting in front of the tube watching the Pan Am games won't firm up anyone's bum as much as actually going out and playing himself, which is what school gym classes are all about.

Same with theatres, etc. Big arts events in Ottawa have little benefit for the average family in Calgary. Instead, let's just spend more on art education in public school, thus giving every person the chance to sing, play a musical instrument, etc.

Any government spending ought to be directed at the grassroots, not big business events.

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Any government spending ought to be directed at the grassroots, not big business events.

It is. The PAN-AM Games are amateur sports and are the result of (mostly) privately funded athlete training. The various levels of government will be partners, along with big business, to facilitate the games including grassroots things like jobs, tourism, infrastructure improvements, etc.

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I just heard on the news that Toronto won the Pan Am Games in 2015.

No online link yet. More to come...

Toronto needs the games just about as much as they need the gay day parade of a proverbial hole in the head. Who needs to see a bunch of selfish athletic twits running around in a circle on some chezzy track? Competion brings out the destructive worst in society - Look at Tiger Woods - a real gentleman and great contributor to society - the selfish son of a bitch - can't contribute to his own wife and children let alone the world - competion brings out the worst in humanity - it is the basis for war...It's stupid.

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Toronto needs the games just about as much as they need the gay day parade of a proverbial hole in the head. Who needs to see a bunch of selfish athletic twits running around in a circle on some chezzy track? Competion brings out the destructive worst in society - Look at Tiger Woods - a real gentleman and great contributor to society - the selfish son of a bitch - can't contribute to his own wife and children let alone the world - competion brings out the worst in humanity - it is the basis for war...It's stupid.

You were always the last one picked for teams,were'nt ya"?

You got picked on by football players,did'nt ya"?

;):lol:

Edited by Jack Weber
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Then finally the world can see what sort of left wing brain storm it really is. I hope country officials like having their windows squeegeed and begged for money aggressively at every turn. Too bad that Miller will be gone from office before it gets here, I wanted him to wear the mess the city is currently in.

Answer me this. IS Toronto really better off now then it was before Miller took office?

Edited by Mr.Canada
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Then finally the world can see what sort of left wing brain storm it really is. I hope country officials like having their windows squeegeed and begged for money aggressively at every turn. Too bad that Miller will be gone from office before it gets here, I wanted him to wear the mess the city is currently in.

Answer me this. IS Toronto really better off now then it was before Miller took office?

"left wing brain storm" You made yourself completely irrelevant and out of touch before the period was typed on the end of your first sentence. Good for you.

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Then finally the world can see what sort of left wing brain storm it really is. I hope country officials like having their windows squeegeed and begged for money aggressively at every turn. Too bad that Miller will be gone from office before it gets here, I wanted him to wear the mess the city is currently in.

Answer me this. IS Toronto really better off now then it was before Miller took office?

What do you care. You don't live there ....

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Really? That is your bottom line? Let's get rid of symphonies and art galleries while we are at it.

Sports have been around as long as anything else in all human cultures from every corner of the planet. Sports, athletic games and play is just as every bit important as "education" and greatly contribute to life long physical and emotional health, the economy and social order.

For many athletes, the PAN-AM Games are a stage where they can put all those years of hard work in minor sports to a test of competition against their counterparts from other regions of the Americas as a prelude to Olympic competition and beyond. Hopefully the staging of the PAN-AM Games will inspire more youngsters to become involved in athletic sports and games and avoid the sorry state of lard-ass-ism that compels people to sit in front of a computer and bitch on the Internet.

Isn't that what the olympics are for? And I really don't think the PAN-AM games do much to inspire youngsters to become involved in sports. I know, i used to be one (a youngster)

Then finally the world can see what sort of left wing brain storm it really is. I hope country officials like having their windows squeegeed and begged for money aggressively at every turn. Too bad that Miller will be gone from office before it gets here, I wanted him to wear the mess the city is currently in.

Answer me this. IS Toronto really better off now then it was before Miller took office?

You obviously don't live in Toronto... But I agree to disagree with the PAN AM Games:)

Me neither, so I don't care what Miller says or does. It doesn't affect us and besides Torontonians are in their own weird little world.

This is somewhat true, but like most people in Toronto we're not originally from Toronto. We do know there's an outside world, but I can only speak for myself...

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Isn't that what the olympics are for? And I really don't think the PAN-AM games do much to inspire youngsters to become involved in sports.

Really? Then no more world mens hockey championships, junior or women because they already have hockey in the Olympics. No more world championship in any sport because if it isn't in the Olympics it won't inspire youngsters anyway. Why bother with the Grey Cup, Superbowl or World Series because, you know, it isn't the Olympics.

:blink:

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Really? Then no more world mens hockey championships, junior or women because they already have hockey in the Olympics. No more world championship in any sport because if it isn't in the Olympics it won't inspire youngsters anyway. Why bother with the Grey Cup, Superbowl or World Series because, you know, it isn't the Olympics.

:blink:

I think you're confusing the idea of government leaving it to the free market on the one hand, and the government actively banning it on the other. Did someone propose banning it and I just overlooked it?

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I think you're confusing the idea of government leaving it to the free market on the one hand, and the government actively banning it on the other. Did someone propose banning it and I just overlooked it?

PAN-AM games are "free market." You have to make a "bid" on hosting them. All kinds of international competition inspire youngsters to become involved in sports, even the PAN-AM games which many athletes use a proving ground for the Olympics.

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PAN-AM games are "free market." You have to make a "bid" on hosting them. All kinds of international competition inspire youngsters to become involved in sports, even the PAN-AM games which many athletes use a proving ground for the Olympics.

And the Pan Am games get no government funding whatsoever, whether directly or indirectly?

If so, then I'm all for it. I highly doubt it though. I wouldn't mind seeing a confirmation of whether there is any government funding or not, including hidden funding such as renting out venues at below market rate, etc.

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And the Pan Am games get no government funding whatsoever, whether directly or indirectly?

If so, then I'm all for it. I highly doubt it though. I wouldn't mind seeing a confirmation of whether there is any government funding or not, including hidden funding such as renting out venues at below market rate, etc.

Of course there is going to be government funding, like every other international sporting event in Canada. What would you expect?

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Of course there is going to be government funding, like every other international sporting event in Canada. What would you expect?

And that's the whole point. The money for that all goes to Toronto, thus benefitting (or hindering, depending on point of view) Torontonians disprotortionately to other Canadians. Add to that that it's essentially subsidizing the entertainment of those who will watch the Pan Am games while those who are not interested in them still have to foot part of the bill.

By redistributing that money to schools, then local schools, be they urban or rural, would all benefit equally in funding to improve their arts and sports education for all, and not just a few in urban centres.

And before you accuse me of city bashing, I'm an urbanite myself living in Ottawa, and so also benefit more than other Canadians from Canadian arts funding. While I can just go downtown and select from a bunch of museums, the Arts Centre, etc., others around Canada are footing the bill, at least in part, for my entertainment. Would it not be more fair to redistribute that funding through school system through arts education to ensure all benefit equally, and then leave arts centres, theatres, arenas, etc. to the private sector completely?

In otehr words, provide children with the skills, and then let them do what they want with them.

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...I'm an urbanite myself living in Ottawa....

That is not only really funny but it explains alot. Ottawa - the place where the National Capital Corporation spends billions of dollars in free arts, entertainment and beautification. There are plenty of free international sports and entertainment that spending on the Pan Am games for Toronto would seem as "excess". Your problem in trying to explain your position is that you have no clue what the rest of the country is like and from the comfort of your leather Lazyboy, I could see how you think you do.

There is no question that Torontonions think they are special but none of that even compares to Ottawa, where virtually everything is provided for you, and where your most serious complaints have to do with the weather (or those ignorunts from the valley who yall come in to shop now and then....)

:rolleyes:

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That is not only really funny but it explains alot. Ottawa - the place where the National Capital Corporation spends billions of dollars in free arts, entertainment and beautification. There are plenty of free international sports and entertainment that spending on the Pan Am games for Toronto would seem as "excess". Your problem in trying to explain your position is that you have no clue what the rest of the country is like and from the comfort of your leather Lazyboy, I could see how you think you do.

There is no question that Torontonions think they are special but none of that even compares to Ottawa, where virtually everything is provided for you, and where your most serious complaints have to do with the weather (or those ignorunts from the valley who yall come in to shop now and then....)

:rolleyes:

I've lived most of my life iin Canada in Victoria, BC.

Also, this thread is not about Ottawa's museums, art galleries, arts centres, etc., but about the Pan Am games. needless to say, I'm not going ot get all off topic and start pointing out what goes on in Ottawa on a thread regarding the Pan Am games. So going back to topic, yes I do oppose government spending on the Pan Am games, as I do government spending on all thearts venues in Ottawa. I'm not sure what part of my previous post was too hard for you to understand, but I thought it was clear enough from that post that I don't appreciate all the benefits Ottawa gets for being the Capital. And yes, I'd be all in favour of cutting government arts funding n ottawa, as I am about government funding for the Pan Am games in Toronto. If you see any contradiction in my position, pelase point it out 'cause I'd love to know about it.

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