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Guest American Woman

Mosque going up in NYC building

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Guest American Woman

In a building damaged by debris from the Sept. 11 airliners that brought down the World Trade Center and soon to become a 13-story mosque, some see the bridging of a cultural divide and an opportunity to serve a burgeoning, peaceful religious population. Others see a painful reminder of the religious extremism that killed their loved ones. link

It seems as if there's a really mixed reaction to having a Mosque so close to Ground Zero. Some are saying it's a great setting for moderate Muslims to try to bridge gaps and an opportunity for moderate Muslims' voices to be heard, but some who lost loved ones think it's more or less a slap in the face.

"I think it's despicable, and I think it's atrocious that anyone would even consider allowing them to build a mosque near the World Trade Center," said Rosemary Cain, whose son, George Cain, a firefighter, died on Sept. 11.

According to the article, the groundbreaking will be announced later this year, possibly coinciding with the tenth anniversary of the attacks. I'm thinking that could be viewed as a little insensitive by some, but of course moderate Muslims had nothing to do with 9-11, so I'm sure that's the message they want to get across.

Ultimately, while I can understand why some would be sensitive to the idea, if moderate Muslims do want to speak out and be heard more, it seems as if it's a good idea.

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Mosques go up all over these days...real nice buildings...as our churchs' rot and go into disrepair...and our kids smoke dope and have sex with anything that moves - male or female...looks like we are de-breeding ourselves out of existance..I have spoken to some young Muslims and they are taught at home that they will internally displace us.. as for the NYC thing..you would think that after 911 they would have gone after the Saudi financers..The oil rich Muslim nations have an agenda...to push us all into the sea....To bad no one got a good grip on real Christian concepts..instead all we have is an ugly mixture of church and state.

YES the moment our churches became tax exempt..was the moment that religion and state became the same force..WHAT do we have to show for secularization? Perhaps a stripper loving coke addict that is elected to parliment?

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In a building damaged by debris from the Sept. 11 airliners that brought down the World Trade Center and soon to become a 13-story mosque, some see the bridging of a cultural divide and an opportunity to serve a burgeoning, peaceful religious population. Others see a painful reminder of the religious extremism that killed their loved ones. link

It seems as if there's a really mixed reaction to having a Mosque so close to Ground Zero. Some are saying it's a great setting for moderate Muslims to try to bridge gaps and an opportunity for moderate Muslims' voices to be heard, but some who lost loved ones think it's more or less a slap in the face.

"I think it's despicable, and I think it's atrocious that anyone would even consider allowing them to build a mosque near the World Trade Center," said Rosemary Cain, whose son, George Cain, a firefighter, died on Sept. 11.

According to the article, the groundbreaking will be announced later this year, possibly coinciding with the tenth anniversary of the attacks. I'm thinking that could be viewed as a little insensitive by some, but of course moderate Muslims had nothing to do with 9-11, so I'm sure that's the message they want to get across.

Ultimately, while I can understand why some would be sensitive to the idea, if moderate Muslims do want to speak out and be heard more, it seems as if it's a good idea.

Just putting a Mosque around there is not a big problem, if there is demand for it. But having it publicized to coincide with the tenth anniversary of the attacks really would be a slap in the face. "10 years ago we blew up your buildings, and now we are building our Mosque here instead! Muahaha!"

The whole opportunity for moderate Muslims line is just crap either way, however. Who are they gonna bridge gaps with in person? How many non-Muslims are gonna go into the Mosque? If they wanna bridge gaps, that's done on the internet and through mass media in the 21st century, not in a physical building.

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Some are saying it's a great setting for moderate Muslims to try to bridge gaps and an opportunity for moderate Muslims' voices to be heard, but some who lost loved ones think it's more or less a slap in the face.

No such thing as a moderate muslim - but many think there are

Borg

Edited by Borg

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Guest American Woman

Just putting a Mosque around there is not a big problem, if there is demand for it. But having it publicized to coincide with the tenth anniversary of the attacks really would be a slap in the face. "10 years ago we blew up your buildings, and now we are building our Mosque here instead! Muahaha!"

I agree with you. I don't understand the mindset of having it coincide with the tenth anniversary of 9-11. If those involved feel the need to speak out more, have moderate Muslims' voices heard, seems to me there would be a lot of ways of going about doing that other than this. It will likely get a lot of press if it does play out that way, but I'm not sure it would be the type of press/reaction that would be considered good/positive; ie: attention that would help moderate Muslims' cause.

I've been to Ground Zero, and an 11 story Mosque in its shadow will likely upset some.

The whole opportunity for moderate Muslims line is just crap either way, however. Who are they gonna bridge gaps with in person? How many non-Muslims are gonna go into the Mosque? If they wanna bridge gaps, that's done on the internet and through mass media in the 21st century, not in a physical building.

I tend to agree.

Edited by American Woman

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YES the moment our churches became tax exempt..was the moment that religion and state became the same force..WHAT do we have to show for secularization? Perhaps a stripper loving coke addict that is elected to parliment?

That, and child molesting priests.

We are seen as a degenerate society by the islamic nations, and in some ways we certainly are. Not that they don't have problems as well, I suppose. THe real war is between the liberal and conservative mndset, which divides the culture even in our own society. Liberals have dominated over the past several decades, probably since the 1960's. But today we see some of the problems that has created, and there is a definite swing taking place. Conservatism is on the rise, worldwide. Not that I completely applaud it, because there are clearly problems with extremism, either way. Striking the right balance is what this struggle is all about. And it will likely never end.

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I think it is a terrible idea that must have an agenda since the line they are giving just doesn't jive.

But the growing number of congregants at the only other nearby mosque, open only one day a week, created a need for an additional space for Muslim prayer in the neighborhood, said Daisy Khan, the executive director of the American Society for Muslim Advancement and a board member of the Cordoba Initiative, the two organizations sponsoring the project.

There's another nearby mosque that is only open 1 day a week. So open it more than one day a week to meet the needs of the area. There may or may not be a need for additional space, but a 13 storey structure is so obviously going beyond what is needed that it's laughable. Are they even saying it with a straight face? It also says they have Friday prayers at the existing building they want to replace. So it's obviously functioning. Fix it up if it needs it. Use it.

Muslims are very well known for having a strong connection with dates, most muslim extremist attacks occur on the dates of previous attacks or such, and for them to want to coincide anything on the 10th anniversary is indeed a slap in the face.

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I think it is a terrible idea that must have an agenda since the line they are giving just doesn't jive.

There's another nearby mosque that is only open 1 day a week. So open it more than one day a week to meet the needs of the area. There may or may not be a need for additional space, but a 13 storey structure is so obviously going beyond what is needed that it's laughable. Are they even saying it with a straight face? It also says they have Friday prayers at the existing building they want to replace. So it's obviously functioning. Fix it up if it needs it. Use it.

Despite all that, there is no law against it. If white folks believe they have the right to say and do whatever they want, where and when they want, as long as it's not illegal, well...

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"I think it's despicable, and I think it's atrocious that anyone would even consider allowing them to build a mosque near the World Trade Center," said Rosemary Cain, whose son, George Cain, a firefighter, died on Sept. 11.

I think it's pretty clear that this Rosemary Cain is prejudiced against Muslims. When she says "them", it's clear to me that she's grouping the terrorists and all Muslim into the same category of people. In other words, it's not just terrorists who executed the 9/11 attacks, but the entire Muslim world. So, we don't need to take this lady too seriously.

Ultimately, while I can understand why some would be sensitive to the idea, if moderate Muslims do want to speak out and be heard more, it seems as if it's a good idea.

I agree. If whatever Muslim association has the money and the desire to build a mosque, let them do it. America's a free country. I'm sure there are more than enough Muslims in NYC who with become patrons of this new mosque if it comes into being.

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Just putting a Mosque around there is not a big problem, if there is demand for it. But having it publicized to coincide with the tenth anniversary of the attacks really would be a slap in the face. "10 years ago we blew up your buildings, and now we are building our Mosque here instead! Muahaha!"

Don't you see how this statement comes across as bigoted? You're grouping the entire Muslim world and the terrorists together with that statement. Unless you meant to suggest that this is how the establishment of a mosque in that exact spot and time would be interpreted by other prejudiced people.

If you wanted to, you could interpret the establishment of a mosque as a statement against Islamic fundamentalism in several ways. I don't feel like elaborating right now, as I feel too tired to think creatively, but I'm sure if you use your imagination you can conceive of arguments supporting the future establishment of this mosque as a statement against Islamic terrorism.

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Despite all that, there is no law against it. If white folks believe they have the right to say and do whatever they want, where and when they want, as long as it's not illegal, well...

It doesn't come down to whether it's legal. When good sense fails, then the city bureaucrats can stall permit approval of this new construction indefinitely. And I hope they have the good sense to do just that.

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It doesn't come down to whether it's legal. When good sense fails, then the city bureaucrats can stall permit approval of this new construction indefinitely. And I hope they have the good sense to do just that.

I fully understand your comment. There's doing what's legal, and there's doing what's RIGHT.

-George W Bush.

But I'm not convinced it's appropriate in this context.

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Guest American Woman
I think it's pretty clear that this Rosemary Cain is prejudiced against Muslims. When she says "them", it's clear to me that she's grouping the terrorists and all Muslim into the same category of people. In other words, it's not just terrorists who executed the 9/11 attacks, but the entire Muslim world. So, we don't need to take this lady too seriously.

I don't think she's prejudiced against Muslims. She has said that she realizes that not all Muslims are terrorists, but when you lose someone you love to an organization made up entirely of Muslims, I can see why it would be difficult to see a Mosque at the site of the memorial. Fact is, it's not only true that not all Muslims are terrorists, it's also true that not all Muslims are moderates; so the Mosque could attract extremists along with the moderates. In fact, one has to wonder if the location wouldn't be a draw to extremists. So I can see why some people would see it as a slap in the face; I can understand where they are coming from.

If whatever Muslim association has the money and the desire to build a mosque, let them do it. America's a free country. I'm sure there are more than enough Muslims in NYC who with become patrons of this new mosque if it comes into being.

Yes, they are free to build it there. I still question whether they are doing the right thing in doing so, however. In other words, I question their judgement and whether or not this will help moderate Muslims' cause. Perhaps having sensitivity to those who suffered loses there, choosing to build the Mosque elsewhere, would have done more to further their cause.

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I don't think she's prejudiced against Muslims. She has said that she realizes that not all Muslims are terrorists, but when you lose someone you love to an organization made up entirely of Muslims, I can see why it would be difficult to see a Mosque at the site of the memorial. Fact is, it's not only true that not all Muslims are terrorists, it's also true that not all Muslims are moderates; so the Mosque could attract extremists along with the moderates. In fact, one has to wonder if the location wouldn't be a draw to extremists. So I can see why some people would see it as a slap in the face; I can understand where they are coming from.

I also understand where she's coming from, but I reject her position. Yet I only understand her perspective when I put myself in the mind of a prejudiced person. Yes, her son was murdered by Islamic extremists. Yes, I can understand how she has extrapolated the guilty parties to include most (if not all) Muslims. Still, it's bigoted. I understand how a mosque being built on the same grounds as the former WTC would be a "slap in the face" to those who are prejudiced against Muslims.

Yes, they are free to build it there. I still question whether they are doing the right thing in doing so, however. In other words, I question their judgement and whether or not this will help moderate Muslims' cause. Perhaps having sensitivity to those who suffered loses there, choosing to build the Mosque elsewhere, would have done more to further their cause.

You're very subtly implying that ordinary Muslims should be apologizing for the acts of the terrorists by not building a mosque at ground zero. At the very least, whether you realize it or not, you're suggesting that ordinary Muslims should show "sensitivity" to those who were murdered by Islamic extremists by not building a mosque at ground zero. Don't you see how that's tacitly associating ordinary Muslims with Islamic terrorists? I'm Jewish, myself, and I'd hate to have to adjust my actions in accordance with wrongs that may be perpetrated by other Jews. See what I'm getting at? I'm not going to allow myself to be "guilty by association" simply because I belong to the same ethnic group as some terrorists - because I don't share their beliefs. Yes I know I'll be associated with them by some simple-minded people, but I don't have to accept that association.

Edited by Bob

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Yes, they are free to build it there. I still question whether they are doing the right thing in doing so, however. In other words, I question their judgement and whether or not this will help moderate Muslims' cause. Perhaps having sensitivity to those who suffered loses there, choosing to build the Mosque elsewhere, would have done more to further their cause.

Your objection seems found in the notion that all of Islam is somehow responsible, even in some indirect or nebulous fashion, for 9-11. It strikes me that this sensitivity you refer to is a very polite euphemism for prejudice. What you're asking the Muslims building the mosque to do is essentially accept responsibility for acts that they very likely had nothing to do with at all. It's no different than all those Protestants after the Gunpowder Plot insisting that English Catholics one and all somehow bore responsibility for a few terrorists.

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Guest American Woman

I also understand where she's coming from, but I reject her position. Yet I only understand her perspective when I put myself in the mind of a prejudiced person.

So when you say you also understand her position, you are in the mind of a prejudiced person? :huh: So basically you don't understand her position.

Yes, her son was murdered by Islamic extremists. Yes, I can understand how she has extrapolated the guilty parties to include most (if not all) Muslims. Still, it's bigoted. I understand how a mosque being built on the same grounds as the former WTC would be a "slap in the face" to those who are prejudiced against Muslims.

Except she hasn't extrapolated the guilty parties to include most, much less all, Muslims. She has said that she knows that all Muslims are not terrorists. I know that all Muslims are not terrorists, yet I can understand her feelings about this Mosque. As I pointed out, not all Muslims are moderate Muslims, and there's a very real possibility that some extremists will be visiting/attending that Mosque. I can understand why that prospect would be upsetting, and there's nothing bigoted about it.

You're very subtly implying that ordinary Muslims should be apologizing for the acts of the terrorists by not building a mosque at ground zero.

I'm doing no such thing. I'm outright saying exactly what I think. I do not think that Muslims should be apologizing for the acts of terrorists by not building a mosque at Ground Zero; I think they could empathize with those who were killed by extremists acting on their religion and build elsewhere. That spot has no particular meaning for them, while it has great meaning for those who lost loved ones. I'm not expecting any more of Muslims than I would myself or any other group/religion/nation/whatever under the circumstances. Just because they themselves aren't guilty doesn't mean they can't understand where the victims' families/friends/survivors are coming from.

At the very least, whether you realize it or not, you're suggesting that ordinary Muslims should show "sensitivity" to those who were murdered by Islamic extremists by not building a mosque at ground zero.

Yes, I am.

Don't you see how that's tacitly associating ordinary Muslims with Islamic terrorists?

No, it's not. Not in the least.

I'm Jewish, myself, and I'd hate to have to adjust my actions in accordance with wrongs that may be perpetrated by other Jews.

Not the same thing at all. If a group of extremist Jews wiped out a neighborhood of Muslims with bombs, do you think it would be perfectly ok for other Jews to then build a synagogue on land that became available to them because of the mass murders/destruction at the hands of the extremist Jews? Or would you, as a Jew, see that as a bit insensitive?

See what I'm getting at? I'm not going to allow myself to be "guilty by association" simply because I belong to the same ethnic group as some terrorists - because I don't share their beliefs. Yes I know I'll be associated with them by some simple-minded people, but I don't have to accept that association.

I think you're on the wrong track. I'm not saying the Muslims wanting to build there are guilty by association. It's not about them. It's about the people who lost loved ones, and the Muslims wanting to build the mosque understanding where they are coming from.

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Guest American Woman

Your objection seems found in the notion that all of Islam is somehow responsible, even in some indirect or nebulous fashion, for 9-11. It strikes me that this sensitivity you refer to is a very polite euphemism for prejudice.

Wrong. There's absolutely nothing prejudiced about my feelings.

What you're asking the Muslims building the mosque to do is essentially accept responsibility for acts that they very likely had nothing to do with at all.

Not at all. I'm expecting them to understand the feelings of those who lost loved ones, which has nothing whatsoever to do with "accepting responsibility."

It's no different than all those Protestants after the Gunpowder Plot insisting that English Catholics one and all somehow bore responsibility for a few terrorists.

I won't repeat what I just wrote in my response to Bob, but it's not the same thing at all. I'm in no way blaming all Muslims for 9-11 nor do I expect them to take responsibility. I've made that quite clear.

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Your objection seems found in the notion that all of Islam is somehow responsible, even in some indirect or nebulous fashion, for 9-11.

But Islam was responsible. All of the terrorists were Muslims. They were all from Muslim countries. The leaders that helped plan the attack were Muslims. They were also all from Muslim countries. But nope, Islam had nothing to do with it. Even indirectly. :blink:

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But Islam was responsible. All of the terrorists were Muslims.

That doesn't mean that islam was responsible. It means that muslim people were responsible, but it doesn't mean that all of Islam is responsible.

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But Islam was responsible. All of the terrorists were Muslims. They were all from Muslim countries. The leaders that helped plan the attack were Muslims. They were also all from Muslim countries. But nope, Islam had nothing to do with it. Even indirectly. :blink:

And if you were a radical feminist, you'd be saying it was because they were all men. What else did they have in common ?

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Let's see, they all think America is the great Satan, we are all infidels who need to bow the knee to Islam or face the sword, Jews are pigs, homosexuals are an abomination, women are property... I'd go on but I know you are not interested in negative comments about Muslims. Too bad they keep trying to bomb American cities, eh?

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Let's see, they all think America is the great Satan.

Do you think that ALL the muslims who've chosen to move to America believe that?

Too bad they keep trying to bomb American cities, eh?

"In September 28, a spokesman for the Pakistani army condemned Washington's killing of Pakistani civilians and warned of retaliatory action: "Border violations by US-led forces in Afghanistan, which have killed scores of Pakistani civilians, would no longer be tolerated, and we have informed them that we reserve the right to self defense and that we will retaliate if the US continues cross-border attacks."

Looks like the US is doing some bombing of it's own.

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Your objection seems found in the notion that all of Islam is somehow responsible, even in some indirect or nebulous fashion, for 9-11. It strikes me that this sensitivity you refer to is a very polite euphemism for prejudice.

I agree, I don't understand her claim that it could be based on anything else.

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