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Where should the new NYC mosque be built?


  

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Guest American Woman

Seeing that some think building the mosque 2 blocks away from ground Zero is too close, I'd like to know how far away we think the mosque should be built so as to avoid offense.

Feel free to comment.

Try to wrap your head around this; it shouldn't be built on property damaged by other Muslims on 9-11; it shouldn't be built on property in the shadow of the WTC memorial on property that's available only because it was damaged in the acts of terror that occurred that day. It shouldn't be built where it otherwise would not have been able to be built but for the murderous, destructive actions of other Muslims.

In other words, it should be built anywhere other than property that's available only because of 9-11.

Edited to add:

But oddly enough, I see that's not even a choice in your poll. :rolleyes:

Edited by American Woman
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Try to wrap your head around this; it shouldn't be built on property damaged by other Muslims on 9-11; it shouldn't be built on property in the shadow of the WTC memorial on property that's available only because it was damaged in the acts of terror that occurred that day. It shouldn't be built where it otherwise would not have been able to be built but for the murderous, destructive actions of other Muslims.

In other words, it should be built anywhere other than property that's available only because of 9-11.

Those murderers were Muslim in name only. They had nothing to do with Islam beyond that, except in the figment of their imagination. For whom precisely should that congregation feel empathy? For the members of that congregation who'd lost family members on 9/11? For those non-Muslim victims who don't care where the mosque is built? For those non-Muslims, victims or otherwise, who do associate the building of that mosque with the perpetrators of the attacks on 9/11 in their minds?

Depending on the answer to that, then the answer as to whether the mosque ought to be built there or not will vary too.

If it's about empathy for the members of that congregation who did lose family members, or to show other non-Muslim victims that they stand for peace and justice, then building the mosque there is a very fitting symbolic gesture.

If, however, empathy must be given to those who associate that community and the mosque with the attackers on 9/11, then yes I agree with you.

But as you can see, the answer will vary depending on the angle. It can be anything ranging from a very fitting tribute to victims of 9/11 all the way to an insult, depending n the group to be empathized with.

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Guest American Woman

Those murderers were Muslim in name only. They had nothing to do with Islam beyond that, except in the figment of their imagination.

Oddly enough, in spite of your claim as to what they are, they seem to believe that they are Muslims. Seems there are quite a few like-minded Muslims who also claim to be Muslim, in spite of your denial.

I can't believe how you simply dismiss people's beliefs and assign your beliefs on them as theirs whenever it suits you. You don't deal with reality at all; you make it all up! And then discuss your version of what people are/think as if it were the way it really is.

Being that I can comprehend what people say and what they claim to believe, and being that I give them credit for knowing what they think/believe more than I know what they think/believe, I will take them at their word.

So if you want to discuss reality, let me know, because I'm not interested in discussing the "reality" that you assign to people.

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Oddly enough, in spite of your claim as to what they are, they seem to believe that they are Muslims. Seems there are quite a few like-minded Muslims who also claim to be Muslim, in spite of your denial.

I can't believe how you simply dismiss people's beliefs and assign your beliefs on them as theirs whenever it suits you. You don't deal with reality at all; you make it all up! And then discuss your version of what people are/think as if it were the way it really is.

Being that I can comprehend what people say and what they claim to believe, and being that I give them credit for knowing what they think/believe more than I know what they think/believe, I will take them at their word.

So if you want to discuss reality, let me know, because I'm not interested in discussing the "reality" that you assign to people.

If you want to define it that way then their Is;am was clearly different from that of the community building the mosque. But again, I do agree that depending on the group that community ought to empathize with, building the mosque there could range from being a beautiful symbol of peace and justice for one segment of the population, to an insult to another segments of the population. The question then is which group should they empathize with, and that will answer the question of whether the mosque ought to be built there or not. It's a question of whether in our minds the builders of that mosque stand for peace and justice, or whether they stand for terror.

But again, both answers are valid depending on how we perceive the local congregation that is building that mosque.

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Try to wrap your head around this; it shouldn't be built on property damaged by other Muslims on 9-11;

Because you blame all muslims. I can't see any other possible (sane) answer.

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Yup. The US Bill of Rights is highly overrated, ain't it. Likewise with the UDHR.

What we need is another inquisition. You don't believe what we believe, off with your head.

Ah the Crusaders.

I would have said the Moon...but then I remembered those that go to it will need oxygen.

:P

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Guest American Woman

Because you blame all muslims. I can't see any other possible (sane) answer.

Thank you for once again telling me what I believe. If you are incapable of seeing any other possible answer, the problem can't be with you. It has to be with me. Therefore I don't believe what I do believe. Because you said so.

Yeah. That's a sane line of thought.

:D

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How magnanimous of you.

Indeed. How tolerant of you to tolerate intolerance. Does it give you a warm fuzzy feeling to keep women in "their place". Or do you "allow" your wife freedom while supporting the removal of these same freedoms for others?

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Indeed. How tolerant of you to tolerate intolerance. Does it give you a warm fuzzy feeling to keep women in "their place". Or do you "allow" your wife freedom while supporting the removal of these same freedoms for others?

People in the US do not have no freedom of religion? That's new.

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People in the US do not have no freedom of religion? That's new.

Yeah...I'm sure they all had the 21st century's problems with so-called radical Islam in mind when they came up with that wee gem. Hindsight is 20/20...

In some religions, all manner of weird stuff happens including burning witches. Shall we allow the burning of witches in the name of freedom of (lol) religion?

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I think the fact this issue is causing so much controversy and bad feeling is a pretty good indicator that it is a bad idea. It won't heal anything. Quite the contrary and I think those who are promoting it are displaying at the least, poor judgment.

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I think the fact this issue is causing so much controversy and bad feeling is a pretty good indicator that it is a bad idea. It won't heal anything. Quite the contrary and I think those who are promoting it are displaying at the least, poor judgment.

AW's point all along.

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I think the fact this issue is causing so much controversy and bad feeling is a pretty good indicator that it is a bad idea. It won't heal anything. Quite the contrary and I think those who are promoting it are displaying at the least, poor judgment.

Yep, building the mosque there is clearly provocative to many people and will only continue to deepen rifts between Muslims and other Americans, as the mere discussion of it has already done.

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Yep, building the mosque there is clearly provocative to many people and will only continue to deepen rifts between Muslims and other Americans, as the mere discussion of it has already done.

I remember watching one documentary about Islam and other religions and the usual question came up re: why churches usually don't get built in the Islamic world...and never in places like Mecca. One fellow explained it as a simple math problem...Islam: 2+2=4, Christianity, etc: 2+2=5...one doesn't commit to something he KNOWS is wrong.

Edited by DogOnPorch
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Thank you for once again telling me what I believe.

You keep saying it over and over again, talking about other muslims and how these muslims shouldn't build because of them. By doing that, you're linking the radicals with all muslims....for some reason. These muslims should be able to build anywhere they want, because they have done nothing wrong and have nothing to do with 9/11. They shouldn't feel shame, they shouldn't feel guilt, and they don't have to feel empathy. That's really all there is to it.

Either you believe in freedom or religion (limited by a country's legal framework), or you don't. Either you believe all muslims are to blame, and they shouldn't be allowed to build here, or you don't. You can't keep saying that you don't blame all muslims, and then make a bunch of statements that would lead almost anyone to the conclusion that you do blame all muslims. Following it up with I DON'T BLAME ALL MUSLIMS, or I'M NOT A BIGOT, doesn't somehow erase the statements that you already made. The thing is, when it comes right down to it; if you don't blame or even hate all muslims, your position doesn't make any sense at all. That's the reality.

Edited by Smallc
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I think the fact this issue is causing so much controversy and bad feeling is a pretty good indicator that it is a bad idea. It won't heal anything. Quite the contrary and I think those who are promoting it are displaying at the least, poor judgment.

I will agree that it is likely a bad idea on the part of the Muslims to build a mosque there owing to its provocative nature.

If I were a Muslim, I might have liked the idea at first, perhaps not realizing how provocative it would have been. Once realizing how provocative it is though, assuming no money'd been spent on it yet and no legal commitment had yet been made to buy the place, I'd likely have backed out.

On the one hand, I honestly can't understand why this would be provocative, but that's beside the point. It is clearly provocative, and while I can understand why that congregation would not have realized how provocative it would have been in the beginning, should back out of it if no plans are yet finalized, or alternatively offer to any other organization the chance to take over any legal obligation that it might have made.

Generally speaking, I tend to be harsher on my own group than on others. So, if I were a Muslim, I think I'd likely be campaigning, albeit diplomatically behind closed doors within the Muslim community, to back out of the project if possible.

Since I don't profess Islam however, I therefore find myself more outspoken against those who do take offense at it for reasons I cannot fully understand (not their fault that I can't understand it, but that's beside the point), and so defend the Muslims' right to build the mosque there without harassment.

I guess it's just in the nature of my character to be harsher on my own group than on the other, regardless of where I stand on a topic.

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I will agree that it is likely a bad idea on the part of the Muslims to build a mosque there owing to its provocative nature.

I completely aree with that. People are being completely irrational about this, and it's stirring up all kinds of trouble....but it's not the fault of the people building the Mosque.

If I were a Muslim, I might have liked the idea at first, perhaps not realizing how provocative it would have been. Once realizing how provocative it is though, assuming no money'd been spent on it yet and no legal commitment had yet been made to buy the place, I'd likely have backed out.

I'm not sure I would. They may be going forward simply on principle now. They have the right to build this, andI don't see why they should have to back off. If someone else is offended, that's their problem.

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....I guess it's just in the nature of my character to be harsher on my own group than on the other, regardless of where I stand on a topic.

...and just what do you consider to be "your own group" in this context?

Does this mean you won't contribute to my B-29 museum in Nagasaki?

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Now of course there is also the issue of the slippery slope. If Muslims don't build there, then where can they build without provocation?

I know the Imam of that mosque had consulted with the leaders of the local Jewish and other religious communities before making his decision and did get their blessings. He'd also consulted with the local government and got their approval too, none of which he was obligated to do. And he'd made the mistake of assuming that because all of those groups had no issue with it, that there was therefore no issue with it. Had I been the Imam of that congregation, I admit I'd likely have made the same mistake of assuming that if the leaders of the various local religious communities had given me their blessings, that their flock would have given me their blessings too.

But mistakes do occur, and so had I been the Imam of that mosque, and assuming that after having made the announcement I'd then witnessed how provocative the issue may have been among the grassroots of the community regardless of the official approval of their different religious organizations, I'd likely have pulled the plug on the idea and go back to the drawing board.

Had the leaders of the different communities stood shoulder to shoulder to show solidarity on this, and that proved sufficient to calm the flock, then I'd have gone ahead with it. But seeing that that is not the case, I'd likely have gone back to consulting not with the heads of the religious communities this time, but rather with the leadership of the very groups resisting this the most vocally and ask them where they think the mosque should be built and see if their recommendation is reasonable.

Again, I can certainly understand how the Imam could have made such an error, but perhaps he should reconsider now that he's seen the response, assuming again that there is no legal commitment yet to building the mosque.

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...and just what do you consider to be "your own group" in this context?

In this context, seeing that it's mainly a conflict between the members of that congregation and non-members, and I'm a non-member, I therefore fall into the category of those who are not members of that congregation, which is where most of the resistance is coming from.

Does this mean you won't contribute to my B-29 museum in Nagasaki?

Hell no. And I think it's pretty obvious that that would be intended to provoke. As for the Islamic centre, it's intended as a place of worship (or at least the mosque portion of it is) and community solidarity, to try to bring Muslims and non-Muslims together.

A B29 museum in Nagasaki would be for what purpose?

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