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Erm...Because I was obviously talking about what goes on in the ring...Trapezoid...Or whatever they call it...

As usual,your professorial skills at comprehension are on full display...

Then please elaborate on how it's exactly the same as WWE.

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Then please elaborate on how it's exactly the same as WWE.

In it's administration...Which is what WIP was getting at...

Perhaps staying out of a converstion you are'nt really involved in and is most likely beyond your comprehensions skills is the best policy?

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In it's administration...Which is what WIP was getting at...

But WIP is wrong. Maybe you should just stick to boxing. MMA is a little out of your league. Especially since you admit you don't follow it.

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I think it would be a good idea for most women to learn some martial arts for self defense; but if there are some who think that cardio kickboxing classes are going to teach anything useful, that's a bad thing, since they could have an unreasonable sense of overconfidence.

A couple of drinks and just about everybody develops an unreasonable sense of overconfidence. :lol: I do often get to deal with young people who have had too much to drink, and often even young people who are more or less sober but for reasons of abject stupidity or social maladjustment feel like getting belligerent anyway. I believe that 90% of women do not know how to punch. They throw like they're holding a fly swatter.

See, I'm not saying your wrong...my point is that if the UFC values money and impressing the crowd more than allowing an open fight within the limitations of UFC rules and gear, then it won't seem legitimate to fans who don't want MMA turned into kickboxing.

Well, guys like Josh Koscheck and Gray Maynard have gone out of their way to try and prove they can do more than "lay and pray". Maynard's match against Frankie Edgar turned into a pretty wild striking contest... was it because Gray wanted to entertain the fans, or was it because Frankie Edgar's impervious takedown defense made "lay and pray" a poor strategy? Probably the latter.

It'll hurt a guy's career potential if that's all he can do. That's what I hope, anyway.

So that's why I never noticed a page or a tab for rankings whenever I went on UFC's website. I'm surprised they don't have a formal ranking system; I would have though this would have been essential when UFC went from being a round-robin tournament to individual matches. No wonder the arguments over fighters gets so nasty.

It's a little subjective, but a formalized ranking system would be a little subjective too. Vitor Belfor knocks out Rich Franklin on one card and Yushin Okami gets a decision win over Nate Marquardt on the next card, who should be ranked higher? Well, it depends if you think Franklin or Marquardt was the tougher opponent, and it depends if you think the knockout is more impressive than the judges decision... so really it's not any more scientific than Joe Silva deciding who should be the next up. It's like NCAA championship voting.

But it's really not much of an issue. Keep winning and you'll get there. The big problem the UFC has isn't that there are too many guys who deserve a chance. The biggest problem they have is not enough guys who prove they deserve a chance. So you get situations like Dan Hardy fighting GSP, or Patrick Cote fighting Anderson Silva. How did those mooks get title shots? Well, Anderson and GSP had beaten the piss out of everybody else, and they had to find somebody for them to fight. Cain Velasquez and Jon Jones look like they'll be two more champions who are head and shoulders above everybody else in their divisions. Then again, BJ Penn looked like he was head and shoulders above everybody else too, until Frankie Edgar came along.

The creme rises to the top in UFC. It always does. The same can't be said for boxing.

This is also something that touches on one of the biggest beefs about the way the UFC is operated. For all of the corruption that goes on in boxing, there's no one in control of the whole entire sport. There are likely too many sanctioning organizations, but one thing that boxers have that UFC fighters don't, is the capacity to act independently. The sanctioning bodies may demand that a champion fight certain contenders or risk losing the belt, but in the UFC, everybody fights who Dana White says they have to fight. The operation is more similar to the WWE than to boxing. And if they put more emphasis on entertainment than sport, the UFC will be almost identical to the WWE.

UFC isn't the only employment option for MMA fighters, even with Strikeforce now being purchased by UFC. There's smaller organizations in Canada and the US, and there's options in Japan and Europe as well. Guys who don't want to fight for the UFC don't have to, but most of them do because UFC pays the best and provides by far the most exposure and opportunity.

And considering the damage that has been done to boxing by promoters, I can't imagine anybody thinking the UFC is doing things poorly. The fighters who earn better opponents get better opponents. Fighters who deserve title shots get title shots. Compared to how things run in boxing? Boxing is a freaking disaster. Your fighter can't fight for my fighter's title unless you agree to these terms, which guarantee me and my guy a $5 million dollar cut of the gate off the top, and by the way, if your guy somehow beats my guy, the contract says that your guy signs me on as his new manager and you're out of luck, and if you don't like it your fighter can go fight some nobody instead because he's not fighting the champ unless you like my terms and conditions. Outside the ring, boxing sucks. It's disgusting. It has destroyed its own credibility.

As you can see, I watch some of the fights, but have never bothered to keep track of the play by play. Obviously Jake Shields is really going to be hyped now that he's in the main event against GSP....so we'll see just how good he really is! I'm sure Dana White wants someone else as welterweight champion. When SPIKE has rebroadcast some of the older pay-per-view events, they've skipped over GSP's matches.

Well, based on his long winning streak and the beating he laid on Dan Henderson, Jake Shields deserves the hype. Then again, based on his fight against Martin Kampmann, where only very generous judging gave him the win, Jake Shields might be a little overhyped. Personally, I think GSP is going to turn him into Salisbury steak.

I was just checking Youtube and came up with one where Shayna Baszler got rocked by Cyborg. Early on it appeared that Shayna had Cyborg caught in a knee bar, but couldn't hold on to it. It didn't look like a good position to go for a knee bar, especially early in the match. I don't know how many weight divisions they have in women's MMA, but I think that one I saw who was an impressive grappler was

who, obviously fights only in Japan, because all of her videos are in Japanese. This one was apparently a title fight against a stronger opponent. It seems that her jiu jitsu is so good, that she is able to control most of her opponents without having any advantage in upper body strength.

Well, Shayna is a bit like Demian Maia... really exciting grappler... pretty bad at striking. She'll either win by submission or lose by knockout. She was in a hurry to get Cyborg on the mat because Cyborg on her feet is just brutal. Most women in MMA fight at 135... they only recently came up with a 145 pound class, basically because Cyborg and Carano both struggle (and often fail) to make weight at 135.

-k

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But WIP is wrong. Maybe you should just stick to boxing. MMA is a little out of your league. Especially since you admit you don't follow it.

Then take it up with WIP,Professor..

I was'nt talking to you at all...

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Actually professor, you referenced me specifically.

Professor...

Where in post #347...The one you directly quoted that started you down this path...

Did I reference you specifically??

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Professor...

Where in post #347...The one you directly quoted that started you down this path...

Did I reference you specifically??

You've already referenced me specifically several timed. I'm simply responding professor.

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You've already referenced me specifically several timed. I'm simply responding professor.

Only after you went after me for something I said in post #347...

Again,and being quite specific...

Could you point out anything in that post that references you specifically?

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I watch it. Have gotten really into it in the last year.

Anderson Silva is my favorite fighter, though i don't like how he's turned into a complete jerk.

Can't wait for the Brock Lesnar fight coming up.

Everytime I pass that stuff on TV, there is a guy on his back with his legs wrapped around the waist of a guy laying on top of him. It looks like gay porn.

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Everytime I pass that stuff on TV, there is a guy on his back with his legs wrapped around the waist of a guy laying on top of him. It looks like gay porn.

:lol::lol::lol:

That's been my take...

The Professor will be along shortly to tell you that he's never seen gay porn intimating that you have and are probably gay...

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:lol::lol::lol:

That's been my take...

The Professor will be along shortly to tell you that he's never seen gay porn intimating that you have and are probably gay...

Exactly. I've never watched gay porn, so I'll have to take your word for it. :lol:

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A couple of drinks and just about everybody develops an unreasonable sense of overconfidence. :lol: I do often get to deal with young people who have had too much to drink, and often even young people who are more or less sober but for reasons of abject stupidity or social maladjustment feel like getting belligerent anyway.

It's just one of the ways that many people lose their inhibitions when they get drunk, but they don't learn that booze doesn't improve fighting ability until it's too late.

I believe that 90% of women do not know how to punch. They throw like they're holding a fly swatter.

There are a lot of guys who can't learn how to throw a decent punch, so it doesn't surprise me that a majority of women -- who have smaller hands and less upper body strength than men, would not be good in a fist fight. I have a good friend who does some martial arts instruction in Aikido and Wing Chun, and also teaches some basic self defense classes for novices who want to learn a few things to protect themselves. Anyway, he usually advises women and the majority of men he trains, to learn how to do effective palm strikes rather than throwing punches....less risk of injury to the hands, and most of the non-boxers can strike harder with the palms than with fists. Plus, a palm strike provides a better opportunity of finding something to grab hold of in an actual fight.

Well, guys like Josh Koscheck and Gray Maynard have gone out of their way to try and prove they can do more than "lay and pray". Maynard's match against Frankie Edgar turned into a pretty wild striking contest... was it because Gray wanted to entertain the fans, or was it because Frankie Edgar's impervious takedown defense made "lay and pray" a poor strategy? Probably the latter.

It'll hurt a guy's career potential if that's all he can do. That's what I hope, anyway.

Certainly MMA is not streetfighting as soon as grappling gloves are put on! Before the gloves came into it, there was a lot more grappling and a lot less punches thrown. It was usually impossible for a fight to stay standup in the pre-glove era. The way it appears now is that the UFC and other MMA organizations want the knockouts and grappling to be a secondary option, rather than days of Royce Gracie and Dan Severn, who never threw punches in any of their fights.

It's a little subjective, but a formalized ranking system would be a little subjective too. Vitor Belfor knocks out Rich Franklin on one card and Yushin Okami gets a decision win over Nate Marquardt on the next card, who should be ranked higher? Well, it depends if you think Franklin or Marquardt was the tougher opponent, and it depends if you think the knockout is more impressive than the judges decision... so really it's not any more scientific than Joe Silva deciding who should be the next up. It's like NCAA championship voting.

I'm sure this is also a problem for the ranking systems in boxing. It can never be perfectly scientific. Nevertheless it would be possible for the UFC to set up a ranking system if they really wanted it. Then, the fighters and their managers could be deciding who they want to fight, instead of having everything choreographed by Dana White.

But it's really not much of an issue. Keep winning and you'll get there. The big problem the UFC has isn't that there are too many guys who deserve a chance. The biggest problem they have is not enough guys who prove they deserve a chance. So you get situations like Dan Hardy fighting GSP, or Patrick Cote fighting Anderson Silva. How did those mooks get title shots? Well, Anderson and GSP had beaten the piss out of everybody else, and they had to find somebody for them to fight. Cain Velasquez and Jon Jones look like they'll be two more champions who are head and shoulders above everybody else in their divisions. Then again, BJ Penn looked like he was head and shoulders above everybody else too, until Frankie Edgar came along.

The challenge for the UFC and MMA in general, is that it has only become a recognized sport very recently. With the octogon cage, grappling gloves, and paying fighters enough money to make a career out of it, the sport has changed from being one of amateurs and specialists in various martial art disciplines trying to figure out what to do, to a new hybrid sport...a combat version of the triathalon, where fighters have to train year round and the ones who will become superstars, such as the ones you mentioned above, are those who are able to be good at both standup and ground fighting. The days of strikers who are helpless on their backs, and grapplers who can't throw a punch are long gone. Most of them are still really good at one thing, and try to learn the other stuff when they start in MMA. But the superstars of MMA will be the generalists who are good at everything.

Well, Shayna is a bit like Demian Maia... really exciting grappler... pretty bad at striking. She'll either win by submission or lose by knockout. She was in a hurry to get Cyborg on the mat because Cyborg on her feet is just brutal.

Maybe she panicked and was in too much of a hurry to find some submission hold. A knee bar is usually an option to go for if you have an opponent on their back, but are having a little trouble establishing control. The problem with that execution was that Cyborg was already sitting up, so Shayna had no opportunity to use her weight and lean in to the knee bar.

Most women in MMA fight at 135... they only recently came up with a 145 pound class, basically because Cyborg and Carano both struggle (and often fail) to make weight at 135.

-k

I wonder if the constraints of not having enough quality opponents will end up lead Chris Cyborg to fighting against male opponents.

As a side note, I found this to be a fascinating little story: George Lucas’ daughter returns to the cage this weekend It seems that Amanda Lucas is just getting back into the cage after taking a long leave of absence to recuperate from a knee injury, and so that she didn't "look like a battered woman" on her wedding day! Anyway, looking at George Lucas, I'm thinking that she must have learned how to fight from her mom!

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There are a lot of guys who can't learn how to throw a decent punch, so it doesn't surprise me that a majority of women -- who have smaller hands and less upper body strength than men, would not be good in a fist fight. I have a good friend who does some martial arts instruction in Aikido and Wing Chun, and also teaches some basic self defense classes for novices who want to learn a few things to protect themselves. Anyway, he usually advises women and the majority of men he trains, to learn how to do effective palm strikes rather than throwing punches....less risk of injury to the hands, and most of the non-boxers can strike harder with the palms than with fists. Plus, a palm strike provides a better opportunity of finding something to grab hold of in an actual fight.

I firmly believe that is a complete lack of understanding of the mechanics of it, not any physiological disadvantage. Not much different from somebody who doesn't know how to play baseball trying to bat for the first time. They stand facing the pitcher, rest the bat on their shoulder, have their arms tucked against their ribs... a lot of girls punch almost the same way.

As for what separates a real power-puncher from the rest, even among well-trained fighters, it's kind of a mystery. Frankie Edgar is a terrific MMA boxer, with fast, accurate hands and good reach for his weight class, but I don't think he's got knockout power. BJ Penn doesn't seem like he would have any particular physical gift... but he hurts people when he hits them.

Certainly MMA is not streetfighting as soon as grappling gloves are put on! Before the gloves came into it, there was a lot more grappling and a lot less punches thrown. It was usually impossible for a fight to stay standup in the pre-glove era. The way it appears now is that the UFC and other MMA organizations want the knockouts and grappling to be a secondary option, rather than days of Royce Gracie and Dan Severn, who never threw punches in any of their fights.

I don't think anybody who's watched UFC cards lately is too worried that grappling is being pushed out of it. The ever-increasing dominance of guys from NCAA wrestling backgrounds makes that plenty clear.

I'm sure this is also a problem for the ranking systems in boxing. It can never be perfectly scientific. Nevertheless it would be possible for the UFC to set up a ranking system if they really wanted it. Then, the fighters and their managers could be deciding who they want to fight, instead of having everything choreographed by Dana White.

Letting the top fighters pick and choose their opponents isn't really that good for the fans or the sport.

The challenge for the UFC and MMA in general, is that it has only become a recognized sport very recently. With the octogon cage, grappling gloves, and paying fighters enough money to make a career out of it, the sport has changed from being one of amateurs and specialists in various martial art disciplines trying to figure out what to do, to a new hybrid sport...a combat version of the triathalon, where fighters have to train year round and the ones who will become superstars, such as the ones you mentioned above, are those who are able to be good at both standup and ground fighting. The days of strikers who are helpless on their backs, and grapplers who can't throw a punch are long gone. Most of them are still really good at one thing, and try to learn the other stuff when they start in MMA. But the superstars of MMA will be the generalists who are good at everything.

Yeah, that's kind of what I meant about the "sameness" that MMA is starting to develop.

I wonder if the constraints of not having enough quality opponents will end up lead Chris Cyborg to fighting against male opponents.

I think that would be a disastrous decision, not just for Cris herself, but for womens' MMA as a whole. I think the most mediocre male Flyweight fighter in UFC or Strikeforce would beat the hell out of her in under a minute.

I think that even in the same weight class, a male competitor would have a huge physiological advantage, because men and women are just built differently. And I think that skillwise Cris Cyborg isn't even particularly good. She's not much of a technician, she's just bigger and stronger than all of her opponents. I think male fighters who make it to a high level have had to compete against much higher calibre opposition. I think they've trained at a much higher level.

On the other hand, I doubt any male competitor would want to fight her anyway, because it's a no-win situation. Lose, and you got beat by a chick. Win, and you beat up a chick. Either way, it's a disaster for your career.

As a side note, I found this to be a fascinating little story: George Lucas’ daughter returns to the cage this weekend It seems that Amanda Lucas is just getting back into the cage after taking a long leave of absence to recuperate from a knee injury, and so that she didn't "look like a battered woman" on her wedding day! Anyway, looking at George Lucas, I'm thinking that she must have learned how to fight from her mom!

:lol: May the force be with her?

-k

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I firmly believe that is a complete lack of understanding of the mechanics of it, not any physiological disadvantage. Not much different from somebody who doesn't know how to play baseball trying to bat for the first time. They stand facing the pitcher, rest the bat on their shoulder, have their arms tucked against their ribs... a lot of girls punch almost the same way.

As for what separates a real power-puncher from the rest, even among well-trained fighters, it's kind of a mystery. Frankie Edgar is a terrific MMA boxer, with fast, accurate hands and good reach for his weight class, but I don't think he's got knockout power. BJ Penn doesn't seem like he would have any particular physical gift... but he hurts people when he hits them.

Throwing a punch is yet another of those things that looks easy, but is difficult to actually do it well. At the elite level, it's an art, that some people have, while most will never be able to copy, no matter how much work they do in the gym. It's no different than many other athletic skills though. I could compare it with swimming...which is something I tried to improve on when I wanted to try competing in a couple of triathlons a few years ago. I watched videos...worked on my form and technique...and there are 70 year olds who can swim faster than me using half the effort!

Yeah, that's kind of what I meant about the "sameness" that MMA is starting to develop.

Maybe that triathlon analogy fits a comparison with MMA! Since it is impossible to excel at the elite level in both running and cycling, it takes a different kind of build to be the best grappler, than it does to be the greatest boxer. But, just like triathlon competitions started out with cyclists trying to build enough of a lead to coast through the run, and runners trying to stay close enough on the bike to close the gap in the final running stage...the sport ended up being dominated by hybrid athletes, who are neither the best cyclists nor the best runners, but reasonably good at both....and the same thing seems to be happening in the UFC with these grappler/strikers.

I think that would be a disastrous decision, not just for Cris herself, but for womens' MMA as a whole. I think the most mediocre male Flyweight fighter in UFC or Strikeforce would beat the hell out of her in under a minute.

I think that even in the same weight class, a male competitor would have a huge physiological advantage, because men and women are just built differently. And I think that skillwise Cris Cyborg isn't even particularly good. She's not much of a technician, she's just bigger and stronger than all of her opponents. I think male fighters who make it to a high level have had to compete against much higher calibre opposition. I think they've trained at a much higher level.

I only watched a couple of her fights, so I didn't get a real reading on her skills. Brute strength can cover for a lot of other weaknesses....worked for years for Matt Hughes! I was thinking that, since most of these MMA women are training with men in gyms...I recall reading something about Gina Carano, that she is the only female fighter at Randy Couture's club, so they are used to having to train with guys every day. It depends on how well the competition develops in female MMA. Even if they have to match her up against smaller male opponents, if Cris Cyborg can't find real female competition, the only way she would improve her fighting skills in the cage, would be to go up against male opponents. I thought of this while recalling the problems Anika Sorensen had when she was so far ahead of the LPGA competition, that she wanted to try to make the cut at the PGA to improve her game. The reaction from most of the top male golfers was pathetic; I hope things will be a little better if a mixed MMA event happens.

On the other hand, I doubt any male competitor would want to fight her anyway, because it's a no-win situation. Lose, and you got beat by a chick. Win, and you beat up a chick. Either way, it's a disaster for your career.

It happens all the time in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu! Since BJJ is a fighting style that relies less on upper body strength, and more on knowing what techniques to use and how to execute them, women who overcome their inhibitions about grappling and rolling around on the mat with guys can really excel at the sport. Upper body strength doesn't go that far in this sport; and since women are relatively equal to men in leg strength, and have greater flexibility in the hips and shoulders, a lot of women can develop better technique than their male opponents.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Anyone giving shields much of a change next weekend?

No! Not even the gamblers; so if you're looking at putting some money on Jake Shields, don't bet any more than you can easily afford to waste. Some of the grappling experts think that Shield's unusual ground game might be a challenge for GSP, but since he has no standup, this might be one fight where GSP decides to use his take-down defense to stay up and hammer away with stiff jabs...similar to the Koscheck fight.

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