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Affirmative Action Explained

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Affirmative action is just the inevitable and unfortunately consquence of the way some people treated other people. You can whine about it all you want, but white/males brought it apon themselves. Suck it up, and stop crying about it.

If you believe that today's 'white males' ought to be punished due to what their ancestors did should we not visit punishment on other groups based upon percieved ancestral affronts and misbehavior too?

The fact is that no one who is benefiting from today's affirmative action programs in Canada was in any way challenged or influenced by the discriminaion of the past. They are, inssence, recieving compensation for a wrong never done them - by people who never did any wrong to anybody.

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If you believe that today's 'white males' ought to be punished due to what their ancestors did should we not visit punishment on other groups based upon percieved ancestral affronts and misbehavior too?

The fact is that no one who is benefiting from today's affirmative action programs in Canada was in any way challenged or influenced by the discriminaion of the past. They are, inssence, recieving compensation for a wrong never done them - by people who never did any wrong to anybody.

Yup. 100%

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I can see an end game, and the reality is that this policy is not very old, and it will take time.

But look at the case of women for example... theyre a majority now in colleges and universities, and the income gap is closing. I can see a time in the next couple of decades when the gender playing field is pretty much level, and theres no need for any more of these policies.

Why does it not concern you that they are the majority? Should you not now be upset and demanding that the affirmative action programs be turned around so that men are given preference?

I am aware of no job, no profession in any field at any level where men are paid more than women based upon seniority, educatio and experience. If you are, please enlighten us.

The gender gap is not going to go away until someone figures a way for babies to be born to men, and for women to have their maternal instinct surgically removed so that the males look after children as much as the females, and until their cooperative instincts are replaced by the aggresive competitive nature we see in a certain number of alpha males.

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I can see an end game, and the reality is that this policy is not very old, and it will take time.

But look at the case of women for example... theyre a majority now in colleges and universities, and the income gap is closing. I can see a time in the next couple of decades when the gender playing field is pretty much level, and theres no need for any more of these policies. We are moving in the right direction with other minorities as well, and AA has played a part in that.

Youre right though... an end game needs to be established and these type of policies need to end at some point.

This is where the people who want a rapid end to these types of policies don't have a great historical grasp of things.Essentially,since the Atnebellum Period,through the Civil War,and,the Jim Crow era,we have had either out and out state sanctioned illiteracy and/or sub-par education standards for Blacks.So,we are talking close to 400 years where a certain groups societal advancment was deliberately stopped,or greatly slowed.

The sweeping civil rights legislation of the early '60's was less than 50 years ago...Barely 1 generation.Now,I don't think it's going to take 400 years to get some groups at education and literacy levels of there peers,but I'm also quite certain that it's probably going to take longer than 1 generation.By the same token,it seems to proponents of these initiatives won't be satisfied until every single member of these groups are 100% successful at life and have created a system where the Civil Rights Movement had become a Civil Rights Establishment.None of that is realistic,or even necessary...

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Why does it not concern you that they are the majority? Should you not now be upset and demanding that the affirmative action programs be turned around so that men are given preference?

I am aware of no job, no profession in any field at any level where men are paid more than women based upon seniority, educatio and experience. If you are, please enlighten us.

The gender gap is not going to go away until someone figures a way for babies to be born to men, and for women to have their maternal instinct surgically removed so that the males look after children as much as the females, and until their cooperative instincts are replaced by the aggresive competitive nature we see in a certain number of alpha males.

Precisely...

Also,women tens to go inot "professions" in the workforce that tend to pay less (see the Service Sector).And no one ever mentions the "Mommy Gap",I suppose because it is'nt "PC",but the fact of the matter is that it is almost inevitable because women bare the responsibility of bearing children and tend to be the ones who stay home in the early years after birth.

Edited by Jack Weber

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If you believe that today's 'white males' ought to be punished due to what their ancestors did should we not visit punishment on other groups based upon percieved ancestral affronts and misbehavior too?

The fact is that no one who is benefiting from today's affirmative action programs in Canada was in any way challenged or influenced by the discriminaion of the past. They are, inssence, recieving compensation for a wrong never done them - by people who never did any wrong to anybody.

I dont think "white males" in specific should be punished. What I think is our NATION is paying for some of the things it did in the past, and theres no statute of limitations on that kind of thing. It doesnt matter if Canadians who live today were around then or not. The government of Canada sure as hell was.

The fact is that no one who is benefiting from today's affirmative action programs in Canada was in any way challenged or influenced by the discriminaion of the past.

Thats just not true. Each persons plight is partially passed down from previous generations. Why should you be able to inherit assets but not liabilities, and other consequences?.

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Yes it is... the pendulum had swung so far against some of these groups, then it was bound to swing back the other way and go past center. Weve seen this happen again and again in almost every modern country that has dealt with these issues. Society saw that these groups were way behind in many ways in part as a result of the way they had been treated.

By 'society', you mean 'white men', don't you? I mean, if we accept it as a given that white men had all the power in these societies and discriminated against minorities and women then we have to accept that at some point those white men decided this was wrong, and decided to stop discriminating.

And because of that you feel it's justified that their children should be discriminated against on behalf of the children of those you imagine they discriminated against?

And yet if we review census documents we find that, absenting native Canadians, there were very, very few visible minorities in Canada prior to the last thirty or forty years - which is the time when white men decided to stop discriminating and allow minority immigration into Canada.

So tell me why a black man who was born in Africa and immigrated to Canada five years ago should deserve some sort of compensatory affirmative action program on behalf of discrimination neither he nor his family ever endured.

Women were posessions of men like a toaster or a lawnmower
.

I think my mother would have disagreed.

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This is where the people who want a rapid end to these types of policies don't have a great historical grasp of things.Essentially,since the Atnebellum Period,through the Civil War,and,the Jim Crow era,we have had either out and out state sanctioned illiteracy and/or sub-par education standards for Blacks.So,we are talking close to 400 years where a certain groups societal advancment was deliberately stopped,or greatly slowed.

This is not the United States. Why hould Canada make ammends to black people who are, in the main, recent immigrants, because the Americans treated slaves badly?

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Why does it not concern you that they are the majority? Should you not now be upset and demanding that the affirmative action programs be turned around so that men are given preference?

I am aware of no job, no profession in any field at any level where men are paid more than women based upon seniority, educatio and experience. If you are, please enlighten us.

The gender gap is not going to go away until someone figures a way for babies to be born to men, and for women to have their maternal instinct surgically removed so that the males look after children as much as the females, and until their cooperative instincts are replaced by the aggresive competitive nature we see in a certain number of alpha males.

Why does it not concern you that they are the majority? Should you not now be upset and demanding that the affirmative action programs be turned around so that men are given preference?

Yeah given the fact the females are now equals in education I would no longer support any programs for gender equality in the education system.

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By 'society', you mean 'white men', don't you? I mean, if we accept it as a given that white men had all the power in these societies and discriminated against minorities and women then we have to accept that at some point those white men decided this was wrong, and decided to stop discriminating.

And because of that you feel it's justified that their children should be discriminated against on behalf of the children of those you imagine they discriminated against?

And yet if we review census documents we find that, absenting native Canadians, there were very, very few visible minorities in Canada prior to the last thirty or forty years - which is the time when white men decided to stop discriminating and allow minority immigration into Canada.

So tell me why a black man who was born in Africa and immigrated to Canada five years ago should deserve some sort of compensatory affirmative action program on behalf of discrimination neither he nor his family ever endured.

.

I think my mother would have disagreed.

She might have agree until she tried to testify against your dad in court and was told she had no legal right to.

By 'society', you mean 'white men', don't you?

No I mean the entity refered to as Canada.

And because of that you feel it's justified that their children should be discriminated against on behalf of the children of those you imagine they discriminated against?

No I can see the injustice in that, and I find it regrettable that we wound up in situation where things like affirmative action became necessary.

But the effects of systemic descrimination dont just magically end when discriminatory policies do. They endure for many generations after.

For example... Im south African, and when aparthied ended, much of the institutional descrimination ended. Thats great right? Yeah... the problem is, is that by that time whites and their decendants had legal title to almost all of the useful land, so the "effects" of descrimination still play a very big part in peoples plight there. The son of a wealthy white farmer enjoys wealth, land, and title because the history of descrimination. The son of black worker that lives in a slum has absolutely nothing.

All EITHER of them did was "get born", but one was born into privilege the other into poverty.

Edited by dre

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I dont think "white males" in specific should be punished. What I think is our NATION is paying for some of the things it did in the past, and theres no statute of limitations on that kind of thing.

Our NATION behaved, all in all, fairly well in the past. Oh, perhaps by modern standards, our behavior was less than ideal. But if you measure Canada's behavior with that of other nations of the past we come out pretty much head and shoulders above most. There was certainly widespread bigotry, but then that was the case everywhere else, and it was a lot less vicious here than elsewhere. It was, in fact, better than most of the world is even today.

Thats just not true. Each persons plight is partially passed down from previous generations. Why should you be able to inherit assets but not liabilities, and other consequences?.

What liability do we owe to people whose families immigrated here within the last twenty years? If you consider that the societies they came from were more bigoted and discriminatory than ours (most were and are), less enlightened, and remain so, should those people not owe something to others, as opposed to us owing something to them?

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Yeah given the fact the females are now equals in education I would no longer support any programs for gender equality in the education system.

Hang on a moment. Where do you get that they are equals? According to your own post and what I've seen and read females are in fact, disproportionate in numbers throughout the education field, and are the majority in universities. Male teachers are an endangered species, and numerous articles have indicated male students, going all the way down to lower grades, are performing worse than ever before, possibly, accoring to some, due to cours curriculums and teaching methods having been modified to help girls learn better.

Is this what you refer to as equal?

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This is not the United States. Why hould Canada make ammends to black people who are, in the main, recent immigrants, because the Americans treated slaves badly?

You have heared of the Africville Razing,right?

Segregated Beaches in Toronto??

This notion that Canada,through the British Empire,is/was above the bigotry of the United States is frankly,pathetic...

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She might have agree until she tried to testify against your dad in court and was told she had no legal right to.

It's certainly regretable that women were discriminated against in the courts at one point. But I fail to see how society is improved or made more fair by having a court system which, it has been alleged, is highly discriminatory against males now.

Further, if you found the one wrong fifty years ago surely the other is wrong now.

No I can see the injustice in that, and I find it regrettable that we wound up in situation where things like affirmative action became necessary.

I think the question, in addition to the justice of it, is whether such programs ARE, in fact, neccessary.

But the effects of systemic descrimination dont just magically end when discriminatory policies do. They endure for many generations after.

I won't necessarily disagree, but I again fail to see how discrimination's effects can endure on the descendants of people who were never in Canada to begin with. Remember that census data...

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No I mean the entity refered to as Canada.

Except not all Canadians "pay" equally. Just the white ones. While the "visible minorities" benefit from these policies.

For example... Im south African, and when aparthied ended, much of the institutional descrimination ended. Thats great right? Yeah... the problem is, is that by that time whites and their decendants had legal title to almost all of the useful land, so the "effects" of descrimination still play a very big part in peoples plight there.

It's ok, at the rate whites are being murdered in South Africa and others fleeing, there won't be any left to own any land soon enough.

The son of a wealthy white farmer enjoys wealth, land, and title because the history of descrimination. The son of black worker that lives in a slum has absolutely nothing.

The important distinction there is "wealthy" and "poor", not "white" and "black". Programs should (and do) exist to help give the poor opportunities in life, such as subsidies for education, etc, that will help them to get better jobs and live richer lives. Such assistance should be based purely on economic considerations, not on racial ones.

Edited by Bonam

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I won't necessarily disagree, but I again fail to see how discrimination's effects can endure on the descendants of people who were never in Canada to begin with. Remember that census data...

Not to mention many whites now living in Canada themselves did not benefit from any of the discrimination that may have happened in the past. Many of Canada's whites are also recent immigrants, within one or two generations, from regimes where they were themselves repressed, such as in eastern Europe. Why are they now forced to pay reparations, on behalf of other people's ancestors?

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You have heared of the Africville Razing,right?

Segregated Beaches in Toronto??

This notion that Canada,through the British Empire,is/was above the bigotry of the United States is frankly,pathetic...

I think I have already acknowledged that Canada was a nation which, by modern standards, certainly was filled with ignorance and bigotry. All nations were. Most nations remain steeped in ignorance and bigotry today.

But let's not compare the relocation of a few hundred people living in shacks on land they, for the most part, held no legal title to, to some horrid American massacre or other. I don't dispute that there was racism in Canada back then, but the ancestors of the great mass of people who are non-white were never here to experience it.

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Hang on a moment. Where do you get that they are equals? According to your own post and what I've seen and read females are in fact, disproportionate in numbers throughout the education field, and are the majority in universities. Male teachers are an endangered species, and numerous articles have indicated male students, going all the way down to lower grades, are performing worse than ever before, possibly, accoring to some, due to cours curriculums and teaching methods having been modified to help girls learn better.

Is this what you refer to as equal?

We would have to study that to know for sure. Almost 60% of students in Canadian universities are female, which seems unequal to me. But you would need to know the gender ratio for applicants as well. The trend if it continues is disturbing though and like I said any policies with gender equality in education as a goal should be stopped.

One thing to consider is employment opportunity after highschool as well. I never went to university and part of the reason why is because right out of highschool I was making almost $30 bux an hour in the contruction trade. It was really hard for a women to get a job making more than $10 with a highschool education or less at that time, so its possible that more women stay on the academic path as a result. Youd have to study it to know for sure though.

Edited by dre

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But you would need to know the gender ratio for applicants as well.

Too bad we don't look at those ratios of applicants when setting up race and gender quotas to begin with eh?

The trend if it continues is disturbing though and like I said any policies with gender equality in education as a goal should be stopped.

Really? Why stopped? Surely we need affirmative action for males now since they are falling behind and disadvantaged?

Edited by Bonam

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I think I have already acknowledged that Canada was a nation which, by modern standards, certainly was filled with ignorance and bigotry. All nations were. Most nations remain steeped in ignorance and bigotry today.

But let's not compare the relocation of a few hundred people living in shacks on land they, for the most part, held no legal title to, to some horrid American massacre or other. I don't dispute that there was racism in Canada back then, but the ancestors of the great mass of people who are non-white were never here to experience it.

Yeah....

Tell that one to the First Nations folks...

I'm sorry folks...Now that I've said that,we will all have to deal with CR...

My apologies...

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I think I have already acknowledged that Canada was a nation which, by modern standards, certainly was filled with ignorance and bigotry. All nations were. Most nations remain steeped in ignorance and bigotry today.

But let's not compare the relocation of a few hundred people living in shacks on land they, for the most part, held no legal title to, to some horrid American massacre or other. I don't dispute that there was racism in Canada back then, but the ancestors of the great mass of people who are non-white were never here to experience it.

Yes they still experience it today. Like I explained the inequities created by institutionalized descrimination last for generations.

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Yes they still experience it today. Like I explained the inequities created by institutionalized descrimination last for generations.

If they do, then so will the inequalities created by the institutionalized racism of affirmative action today.

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If they do, then so will the inequalities created by the institutionalized racism of affirmative action today.

So what's the answer less than 50 years after the fact???

A return to the old "Meritocracy"?

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So what's the answer less than 50 years after the fact???

A return to the old "Meritocracy"?

I don't know why you put it in quotes. Yes, hiring for jobs and acceptance to post-secondary programs should be based on merit. For the economically disadvantaged, programs can exist to offer them the same opportunities as people of an average economic standing can have. Such assistance can and should be independent of race. There are poor among all races, there are people who have suffered oppression among all races, just as there are people who do well among all races. A poor white refugee from the Soviet Union deserves no less aid than a black immigrant from Africa.

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I don't know why you put it in quotes. Yes, hiring for jobs and acceptance to post-secondary programs should be based on merit. For the economically disadvantaged, programs can exist to offer them the same opportunities as people of an average economic standing can have. Such assistance can and should be independent of race. There are poor among all races, there are people who have suffered oppression among all races, just as there are people who do well among all races. A poor white refugee from the Soviet Union deserves no less aid than a black immigrant from Africa.

I agree,but we tried that before and even Du Bois "Talented Tenth" ended up being janitors and maids because they could'nt get work in their fields...

Did'nt work so well...

I put "meritocracy" in quotes because it was a meritocracy in name only...

See MLB's "Gentlemen's Agreement" for emphasis...

Edited by Jack Weber

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