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Democratic Congresswoman almost killed in Arizona


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Why is it that the first thing people want to do is blame this or that party, or ideology. With no real facts, no investigation, nothing. It just happened, and people are dead, even children! What is wrong with us. It seems to me this whole internet thing is used to hype everything up, to make people stupid and crazy.

I recall the Greyhound slaying from 2008.

A witness says that the killer had a shaved head, another witness says they think the victim may have been a native, and pretty soon people are speculating that it was a neo-Nazi hate crime.

Or the Oklahoma City bombing. How many fingers were pointed at Muslims before the facts became known...

People have an emotional investment in their beliefs and would dearly love to see their biases confirmed. That's basically what it boils down to.

-k

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Why is it that the first thing people want to do is blame this or that party, or ideology. With no real facts, no investigation, nothing. It just happened, and people are dead, even children! What is wrong with us. It seems to me this whole internet thing is used to hype everything up, to make people stupid and crazy.

Of course the internet hypes everything up and that's part of the problem in my opinion. I'm not saying this is the fault of a certain group, I think it's the fault of the climate of anger both sides stoke. It's of my opinion that the right does it more than the left but both try to score points doing so and both sides are wrong.

There is no person or party or ideology responsible for what happened. The person did what he did. Yet, I don't think it's wrong to ask what kind of effect the media in regards to politics has had on this crime. It was an overtly political crime. Most people see the stuff on TV and laugh it off, but there are some of us out there that are quite mentally unbalanced and who knows what type of rhetoric will drive people over the edge.

What seems to be the most compelling argument is that obviously this person had way too easy a time getting a firearm. He had a criminal record and a history of mental illness yet was able to legally purchase the handgun. The sheriff himself said on CNN not 5 minutes ago how whacked that situation is and lamented about how there is a law before the Arizona congress about mandating guns in school.

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His ideology doesn't seem to fit any side so the left is going to have a real problem pinning this on the tea party, it seems his favorite books include Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto !

Interesting the books you chose to mention of all his favorites..........

I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver's Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/jared-lee-laughners-youtube-site-reveals-clues-about-killer-lists-mein-kampf-and-communist-m
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So then....he likes classics. How evil.

Edit: For clarity, I'm saying that I don't think it has all that much to do with his reading choices, as many people have read most of those same books, and I hope to some day as well.

Edited by Smallc
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"He's balanced."

This is a pretty dramatic event. I'm very suprised that the congresswoman who was shot in the head survived.

It will be interesting to see what state she is in, if she will resume her duties or retire.

I don't understand the event. I also can't trust internet resources for a character assessment after the fact. If I had seen it before and substantiated it, yes probably, but after the fact on such a high profile person, it is difficult to gauge accuracy for the event or the person who is charged.

People can go out and call people crazy for taking control into their own hands, and making their own judgements.

Its sane when governments kill people but not when people kill people, is that what sanity is these days?

Although I can't 100% say this person did indeed do it, I can say that I find people who automatically lable a murderor "insane" simply because they have their own opinion, and are non conformist to "reserved" mentalities (the norm). Is totally a false dichotomy.

When free expression turns into insanity - society truly is repressed by a totalitarian police state.

"Insanity should be out of touch with reality not having a sound basis - from a logical perspective", not based on refusal to accept loss of individualism and free expression that fully conforms to a logical basis.

Although it is hard to say, the guy makes perfect sense if you see the currency as your own thoughts - as a treasurer you control them.

That's the moral I got from it.

I don't know anyone involved as far as I am aware, so I can't offer any comments specific to them. Hopefully the most good can come from things, and those good people hurt from the event where they may be, are being consoled and comforted.

Edited by William Ashley
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Don't you know?

Guns don't kill people; people who've read The Communist Manifesto kill people!

Did Jared Lee Loughner read any The Communist Manifesto before he killed people?

I think what he have heard most is freedom and democracy from the mass mainstream media and movies and books and even school curriculum for elementary schools.

United States has 15,241 murders in 2009, how many of them read The Communist Manifesto?

Edited by bjre
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Guest American Woman
What seems to be the most compelling argument is that obviously this person had way too easy a time getting a firearm. He had a criminal record and a history of mental illness yet was able to legally purchase the handgun. The sheriff himself said on CNN not 5 minutes ago how whacked that situation is and lamented about how there is a law before the Arizona congress about mandating guns in school.

I haven't seen a timeline for the purchase of the gun or any proof that the gun was registered in his name. It sounds as if the police are seeking a second person, who they suspect of helping him.

So was he able to purchase the gun? Was it registered in his name? And if so, what was the timeline in regards to the crime and his mental illness? If anyone has the answers, I'd appreciate a link.

As to his "history of mental illness," this is what I've read: Jared Lee Loughner had become increasingly erratic in recent months. (link) So again, if it was registered in his name, when was the gun purchased in regards to "recent months?" According to what I've read, it's been said that it sounds as if he may have suffered from schizophrenia, which usually hits in the teens/early twenties, and he was in his early twenties. He had applied for military service and was rejected. He'd been expelled from college and wouldn't be readmitted without a psychological examination. This could have very well been a recent illness with a rapid deterioration.

It sounds as if nothing can be blamed for his actions other than mental illness, unless there was another person involved. I am definitely interested in further developments regarding this incident, especially if there is a second person involved. Who is he, and what possible motives could he have had? And did he play on Loughner's mental illness/instability?

Edited by American Woman
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According to CNN this guy had a criminal record and a history of mental illness. The guy was obviously nuts and mentally unstable with no particular ideology, he held eclectic viewpoints which seem to defy political classification.

It is possible that the Congresswoman will become the poster gal for tighter gun control.

http://www.ocala.com/article/20110109/ZNYT02/101093011/-1/news?p=1&tc=pg

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/jared-lee-loughner-gabriel-giffords-suspected-shooter-identified/story?id=12572164

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It should be quite apparent to anyone with a functioning brain that the hatred promulgated by the likes of Sarah Palin will influence an individual such as this young man. Whether he read Mein Kamph ot the Communist Manifesto is really beside the point. The gun culture in the USA and in particular a state like Arizona contributes in large part to such tragedies. Events such as these will continue to be repeated unless and until the Congress rids itself of the influence of the gun lobby.

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It should be quite apparent to anyone with a functioning brain that the hatred promulgated by the likes of Sarah Palin will influence an individual such as this young man. Whether he read Mein Kamph ot the Communist Manifesto is really beside the point. The gun culture in the USA and in particular a state like Arizona contributes in large part to such tragedies. Events such as these will continue to be repeated unless and until the Congress rids itself of the influence of the gun lobby.

Showing the reading material of Mein Kamph & the Communist Manifesto was to highlight his wide range of reading material. I agree the gun culture mentality is hard for Canadians to understand, but trying to blame Sarah Palin is B.S.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyharnden/100071004/the-unseemly-rush-to-blame-sarah-palin-the-tea-party-and-republicans-for-murder-in-arizona/

Ben Smith sums up the current picture of Loughner pretty well:

Oh, and another former classmate said he was “left wing, quite liberal”. Naturally, this doesn’t stop Jacob Heilbrunn, pontificating that the shootings are evidence of that the “radical right is becoming even more radicalised and violent”. The obsession with the gold standard and the hostility to the federal government resonate with the far right, the burned American flag with the left, but the discussion of mind control and grammar sound more like mental illness than politics.

This is highly inconvenient for certain people on the Left so they ignore it. They would much prefer the shooter to have been a white male in his 50s, the description the sheriff gave of a second person of interest (we’ll see if such a person materialises) but they’ll still try to make hay with a weirdo like Loughner.

Giffords herself doesn’t quite fit the likely victim of an enraged Right-winger. She is a Blue Dog Democrat, a deficit hawk and voted to lift the ban on guns in DC and voted against Nancy Pelosi for Speaker. On Thursday, she took part in the reading of the Constitution in the House, reading aloud the First Amendment, which guarantees freedom of religion, speech and peaceful assembly.

She’s certainly not the “progressive” that Hanoi Jane tweeted about and provoked as much anger on the Left as on the Right for her political stances. Just the other day, a blogger at DailyKos said that Giffords was “dead to me” for failing to back Pelosi.

Edited by scribblet
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"Showing the reading material of Mein Kamph & the Communist Manifesto was to highlight his wide range of reading material."

If that is the case then how does that relate, in any way, to the actions he took?

"I agree the gun culture mentality is hard for Canadians to understand, but trying to blame Sarah Palin is B.S."

Sarah Palin and her ilk ought to take a long and hard look at the vitriol and hatred generated through the medium chosen. It is quite clear to me that her irresponsible conduct gives lunatics such as this young man a licence to kill.

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Sarah Palin and her ilk ought to take a long and hard look at the vitriol and hatred generated through the medium chosen. It is quite clear to me that her irresponsible conduct gives lunatics such as this young man a licence to kill.

But it's okay for Daily Kos to do the same things, there is as much vitriol and hatred generated from the left as anywhere else.

Giffords had been target of violent threats is true, here's one from Daily Kos - "bulls eye" post

http://hillbuzz.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/screen-shot-2011-01-08-at-3-05-33-pm.png

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"there is as much vitriol and hatred generated from the left as anywhere else."

You appear to have missed my point. Sarah Palin has made her mark in politics and the media by embracing a divisive message that appeals to the darker side of human nature. Partisanship is one thing as is the right to express one's views but with such a right comes the responsibility to discern the impact such speech has on others. Ms. Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and many of the other hate infested talk radio types feed the anger which manifests itself on a daily basis. This latest incident is a result of such behaviour.

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Guest American Woman
Sarah Palin and her ilk ought to take a long and hard look at the vitriol and hatred generated through the medium chosen. It is quite clear to me that her irresponsible conduct gives lunatics such as this young man a licence to kill.

I have absolutely no use for Sarah Palin and there's nothing to suggest that Loughner did, either. While I don't condone Palin's "bulls eye/take them out" mentality, I was totally unaware of it until this incident. Chances are, since there's nothing to suggest otherwise, Loughner had no connection to it/awareness of it, either. He went on tangents about plenty of things. As far as I've read, Sarah Palin never entered into the picture.

As for the gun laws, I still haven't seen any links saying the gun was registered in Loughner's name, or if it was, if he bought it before or after his apparent mental instability.

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The guy was obviously nuts and mentally unstable with no particular ideology, he held eclectic viewpoints which seem to defy political classification.

Amazing how you can make firm conclusions about something with virtually no evidence. You're as bad as the people blaming Sarah Palin. :lol:

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"As for the gun laws, I still haven't seen any links saying the gun was registered in Loughner's name, or if it was, if he bought it before or after his apparent mental instability."

Apparently the gun was purchased on November 30, 2010. If purchased at this time it is reasonable to conclude he was mentally ill at the time. This individual lived with his parents and the parents were certainly aware of their son's behaviour. I am wondering what steps,if any, were taken by the parents in addressing his mental state.

Edited by pinko
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I find the discussion of 'DailyKOS' or Sarah Palin's media crimes in relation to this to be a ghoulish media parlor game that only exacerbates the cultural distance between the left- and right- in the US.

I'm glad to see that most people aren't trying to lay blame for this on Palin or DailyKos.

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Amazing how you can make firm conclusions about something with virtually no evidence. You're as bad as the people blaming Sarah Palin. :lol:

So, someone who goes on a shooting rampage is mentally stable - oh sure I'll buy that one LOL

There is plenty of evidence, the Sheriff allready said he had a criminal record and was unstable, here the school suggested a mental health evaluation

http://www.ocala.com/article/20110109/ZNYT02/101093011/-1/news?p=1&tc=pg

Sara Palin et al have no responsibility whatsoever for this guy's actions, there is no evidence that he had any interest in them, in fact a friend of the shooter's came out in public yesterday and said that the shooter was a left wing liberal, go figure.

There is also some indication that something happened in 2007 to cause a change in his behaviour. We may never know or understand his behaviour, he may not know why he did it, but it does not appear to be political at this time.

http://www.ocala.com/article/20110109/ZNYT02/101093011/-1/news?p=2&tc=pg

Edited by scribblet
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But it's okay for Daily Kos to do the same things, there is as much vitriol and hatred generated from the left as anywhere else.

Giffords had been target of violent threats is true, here's one from Daily Kos - "bulls eye" post

http://hillbuzz.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/screen-shot-2011-01-08-at-3-05-33-pm.png

Surely you aren’t suggesting that the post from Daily Kos was anything other than an opening discussion about finding other candidates to run against the 42 Democrats bolded. If you are, I hope the other Democrats have increased their security or they will be next victims of the powerful Kosaks :rolleyes: . However, the other representatives have the added advantage of not living in a state described by law enforcement as a “mecca for prejudice and bigotry." The state where gun-toting protestors show up at Obama events with blessings from their pastor who allows guns in his church as he preaches his hatred of Obama from the pulpit: "I am not going to pray for his good. I am going to pray that he dies and goes to hell." Steve Anderson, the "Pastor" at Faithful Word Baptist Church

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Guest American Woman

"As for the gun laws, I still haven't seen any links saying the gun was registered in Loughner's name, or if it was, if he bought it before or after his apparent mental instability."

Apparently the gun was purchased on November 30, 2010. If purchased at this time it is reasonable to conclude he was mentally ill at the time. This individual lived with his parents and the parents were certainly aware of their son's behaviour. I am wondering what steps,if any, were taken by the parents in addressing his mental state.

Thank you for that information; I don't know why I was having such a difficult time finding it. It does put a different light on things. Apparently he bought it at a sports shop, which makes me question what kind of a background check they are required to do.

As for his parents, from what I've read, they did meet with the college administration when he was suspended and were told that he needed psychological help/evaluations in order to return. He wasn't a minor, though, so how much his parents could have actually done is questionable. Did they know he had purchased a gun? There's nothing that I've read to suggest that they did.

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