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lukin

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Well,being born in 1970,I can say I never saw Butkus play...Or if I did,I don't remember it!

As I stated before,from what I've seen of film,I put Butkus ahead of Lewis in two(2) categories...

1.The ability to shed a block and get to the ball carrier.This is key to playing the Middle Linebacker position...

2.The ability to read a play and get back into pass coverage

These are the two areas of defensive play that Butkus was superior to Ray Lewis.

To your point about AV points over a 9 year span...I think it would be instructive to realize that Butkus played in an era of the 14 game season and Lewis played in a 16 game season era.In otherwords,Lewis in that time span,played in 18 more football games.That's where that discrepancy(sp) comes into play

Again,I think it's alos instructive to realize the cast of characters surrounding each player.I would wager that excellect ballplayers like Chris McAllister,Ed Reed,Bart Scott,Terrell Suggs,and,Tony Siragusa could only enhance Lewis'play.I defy anyone to point out to me,or anyone else,a cast of players that talented that surrounded Butkus from '65 to '73?

Excellent response!

My apologies for lumping you in with Shwa in an earlier post. Clearly I was wrong to do that.

Good points made.

I will note that the PFR AV points still averages out to give Lewis 1 point per game for his first 9 years to Butkus' 0.983 points per game - which is a statistical tie, imo.

So, then it comes down to watching the film - I haven't seen enough of either to claim one way or the other and I'm uncomfortable making conclusions for this reason (as well as other reasons mentioned above in other posts).

I'm sure if we were sitting down in a bar sharing a single malt we could have a good discussion over this. :)

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Excellent response!

My apologies for lumping you in with Shwa in an earlier post. Clearly I was wrong to do that.

Good points made.

I will note that the PFR AV points still averages out to give Lewis 1 point per game for his first 9 years to Butkus' 0.983 points per game - which is a statistical tie, imo.

So, then it comes down to watching the film - I haven't seen enough of either to claim one way or the other and I'm uncomfortable making conclusions for this reason (as well as other reasons mentioned above in other posts).

I'm sure if we were sitting down in a bar sharing a single malt we could have a good discussion over this. :)

I'm not partial to single malts,and frankly,you're better off getting a good blended scotch than paying extra for a poor single malt from a duff cask.

I recently say a bottle of Glenfiddich going for the same price as a bottle of Johnnie Walker Black Label...

That's a tough choice! B):D

But if it's football we're talkin',should'nt we be scarfin' back the brewski's?

Another thing I wanted to adress was what you said in a previous post about player size between the era's.It's true that players are larger now,through things like training,nutrition...(cough) ster (cough) oids (cough)...AND,that Butkus was a physical freak of nature for his time,like Jim Brown was.However,there were alot of things that Offensive Linemen could do then that is completely illegal now...

Things like Tandem Blocks,Crackback Blocks,High/Low Blocks...The era difference goes both ways,good and bad...

Two obvious examples about the size and legality/illegality of that era...

1.Jim Taylor was a starting Fullback for the Lombardi era Packers.He was joined by Paul Hornung in that backfield.One of the best Halfback/Fullback duo's of al time.Jim Taylor,was 6'0",and about 200LB's...In otherwords,he would be hard pressed to make a practice squad at Fullback at that size today.

2.For the life of me,I cannot understand why someone like Jim Marshall does not get more recognition.Marshall was a Defensive End for the Minnesota Vikings from '61 until '79.He played in an era where all those blocking tequniques were legal..And NEVER MISSED A GAME!He was an integral part of the Viking's defence during their heyday of the '70's.I realize that the Vikings lost 4 Super Bowls during the '70's AND he gets the nickname "Wrongway Jim" for what happened in San Francisco in 1962...But his total career deserves some serious recognition AND Hall of Fame recognition!

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Sure, I can call a spade a spade while adding substance (and even the odd link to articles backing up my POV too).

My apologies for offending you for preferring statistical methods over your preference for subjective viewpoints.

You didn't offend me, you amused me. And here you are hiding behind you weak strawman again, like a douche. Show me where - anywhere - in this thread where I unequivocally stated I have a "preference for subjective viewpoints."

Can't do it? Didn't think so.

I'm sure if we were sitting down in a bar sharing a single malt we could have a good discussion over this.

Right, because everyone knows that only objective viewpoints using statistical methods get discussed while "sitting down in a bar." While you are at it, fix the world's problems will ya? That happens in bars alot too. :lol::lol:

I still think it is idiotic to rate players based on one's own perceptions of how they play/played when the players have played the game 20 or more years apart.

Yes of course, because talent evaluation is so overrated. All that scouting and coaching and decision making, all by computer now didn't you hear?

At least PFR has laid down a methodology using stats but even that has weaknesses.

Point out 5 obvious weaknesses.

There are other outlets on the internet for people like me and people like you to discuss such things in our preferred ways so I will leave it at that.

No, I am sure you will get another ass-kicking wherever you go and pull the douche routine.

And I know few people enjoy puns but I was just having a bit of fun because the opportunity presented itself.

Oh, the psychology! LOFL! :lol:

Edited by Shwa
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No, I am sure you will get another ass-kicking wherever you go and pull the douche routine.

Shwa, while I was joking at the time with the "Dick" comment, your continued tone means I have no reason to discuss this topic further with you (and likely any other topic on these forums).

Jack has very nicely provided some excellent replies where I can mostly agree with him or at least see his point.

IOW, we can agree to disagree and be relatively civil about it.

You continue to call me a "douche" and have provided little to no substance to your posts and are nothing more than a troll, imo.

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Shwa, while I was joking at the time with the "Dick" comment, your continued tone means I have no reason to discuss this topic further with you (and likely any other topic on these forums). Jack has very nicely provided some excellent replies where I can mostly agree with him or at least see his point. IOW, we can agree to disagree and be relatively civil about it. You continue to call me a "douche" and have provided little to no substance to your posts and are nothing more than a troll, imo.

msj, if you wish to enter into a discussion by first implying poster "idiocy" for not adhering to a standard you yourself blatantly and clumsily ignore, you qualify for the unfortunate moniker of 'douche.'

I am sorry, but that's just the way it is.

Now get back to the bar and solve the world's problems. Billions are counting on you.

:lol::lol:

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msj, if you wish to enter into a discussion by first implying poster "idiocy" for not adhering to a standard you yourself blatantly and clumsily ignore, you qualify for the unfortunate moniker of 'douche.'

I am sorry, but that's just the way it is.

Now get back to the bar and solve the world's problems. Billions are counting on you.

:lol::lol:

1) Idiocy is synonymous with "foolish" which is hardly the same tone as "douche." In hindsight, I should have used the "f" word rather than the "i" word from the beginning.

2) The tone of your posts has been nothing short of juvenile through and through.

3) I have hardly debated Butkus/Lewis - I have used it as a reference point to touch on the other issues I have raised and for which you continue to ignore, make fun of and/or (willingly?) fail to comprehend.

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1.The ability to shed a block and get to the ball carrier.This is key to playing the Middle Linebacker position...

2.The ability to read a play and get back into pass coverage

These are the two areas of defensive play that Butkus was superior to Ray Lewis.

I disagree. I'd say it's a lot easier shedding blocks from offensive linemen who are much smaller. Ray Lewis deals with offensive linemen that are 300+ pounds on a weekly basis. When Butkus played, there were only one or two 300 pound linemen in the entire league. Big difference. Advantage Lewis.

Also, pass coverage is a lot more complex now than in the 1960's. And the rules have been changed to give receivers all the advantages. And when you compare the two, Lewis has many more interceptions than Butkus did during his playing days.

I'm sorry guys. But Ray Lewis is clearly the superior player. He's an old school type player that's playing in modern times. He's the best of both worlds.

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Actually, I need to correct myself. There were no 300 pound offensive lineman when Butkus played.

An analysis of league rosters shows the number of 300-pounders has risen dramatically over the decades: From a single player (Gene Ferguson of the Chargers) in 1970, to three in 1980, 94 in 1990, 301 in 2000 and 394 in 2009.

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I disagree. I'd say it's a lot easier shedding blocks from offensive linemen who are much smaller. Ray Lewis deals with offensive linemen that are 300+ pounds on a weekly basis. When Butkus played, there were only one or two 300 pound linemen in the entire league. Big difference. Advantage Lewis.

Also, pass coverage is a lot more complex now than in the 1960's. And the rules have been changed to give receivers all the advantages. And when you compare the two, Lewis has many more interceptions than Butkus did during his playing days.

I'm sorry guys. But Ray Lewis is clearly the superior player. He's an old school type player that's playing in modern times. He's the best of both worlds.

While Offensive Linemen are larger,they cannot tandem block,crachback blcok,or,high/low block anymore.

There's a reason Butkus only played 9 seasons and the last three were basically on no knees!

In 1969,the Chicago Bears won one (1) game against the Pittsburgh Steelers,finishing 1 and 13...Butkus was named Defensive Player of the year!That's an incredible achievment that gets lost in the history of professional football.That's as incredible as Steve Carlton pitching for the Philadelphia Phillies in 1973,a team that won less than 60 games,with Carlton wining almost half of them.

Butkus played 9 seasons ,all at MLB.In Lewis' first 9 seasons,4 were either at LILB OR RILB...Which means he's in a 3-4 for 4 of those 9 years.Therefore,his responsibilities wer far more limited,and Lewis had a far better supporting cast around him.The interceptions in that time period are almost equal,and Lewis played in 18 more regular seasons games...In a watered down league with more teams with larger roster sizes...

There is Butkus...And then,there's everyone else...

Edited by Jack Weber
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Actually, I need to correct myself. There were no 300 pound offensive lineman when Butkus played.

And steroid abuse has increased,as well...

And for vicious O-Linemen,check out the likes of Bob Nilan,Forrest Gregg,Bob Brown,Ron Mix,Jim Otto,and,Conrad Dobler...

Size does'nt mean jack squat with guys prepared to rip your knees up....

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While Offensive Linemen are larger,they cannot tandem block,crachback blcok,or,high/low block anymore.

They can tandem block, and they can block low. They just can't block low on a player already engaged with another player. Which effects defensive lineman much more than linebackers.

In 1969,the Chicago Bears won one (1) game against the Pittsburgh Steelers,finishing 1 and 13...Butkus was named Defensive Player of the year!

So what. Could be that there weren't that many great defensive players that season, at leat compared to Butkus. It doesn't mean he's better than Lewis though.

In a watered down league with more teams with larger roster sizes...

Yes, larger rosters and more teams, but not watered down at all. There's a much bigger pool of players available for the NFL now than in the 1960's.

There is Butkus...And then,there's everyone else...

Don't get me wrong. Butkus was a great player. I just don't think he's the best linebacker of all time.

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And for vicious O-Linemen,check out the likes of Bob Nilan,Forrest Gregg,Bob Brown,Ron Mix,Jim Otto,and,Conrad Dobler

Steve Wisniewski, Jonathan Ogden, Larry Allen. All 300+ pounds. Strong as hell. Mean as hell.

Larry Allen bench presses 692 pounds!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUe1wsJWdXE

Jonathan Ogden

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmIdCeO6WLY

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They can tandem block, and they can block low. They just can't block low on a player already engaged with another player. Which effects defensive lineman much more than linebackers.

So what. Could be that there weren't that many great defensive players that season, at leat compared to Butkus. It doesn't mean he's better than Lewis though.

Yes, larger rosters and more teams, but not watered down at all. There's a much bigger pool of players available for the NFL now than in the 1960's.

Don't get me wrong. Butkus was a great player. I just don't think he's the best linebacker of all time.

1. I'm certain you don't know what a tandem block is...I know it was illegal over 20 years ago when I was playing...They usually don't relegalize something...

2.Blocking low on someone who is engaged IS a "Crackback" block...That was legal into the early '80's.And it effected anyone engaged with offensive linemen...

3.Not good Defensive players in the '60's???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSGUN5g2MvA

I'd be inclined to add the names of Alex Karras,Bob Lilly,Willie Davis,Joe Schmidt,George Andrie,Chuck Howley,Willie Lanier,and,Doug Atkins to that list...

4.If you have over 30 teams with over 50 roster spots with players who are simply used as situational substitutions,by definition,you have inferior players...By saying what you have,you are intimating the likes of Dieon Sanders are easily equated with the likes of Donnie Shell,Willie Brown,and,Jack Tatum!

That's ridiculous on the face of it!

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Remember the thread where RickiBobbi was telling people that DaBears could win the Superbowl with Rex Grossman as quarterback? :lol:

Jay Cutler did a great Rex Grossman impression this week...

I only caught the 2nd half of the Steelers-Jets game, and based on how that went it's hard to believe that the game had been 24-0 at one point. I was hoping for the epic comeback, but no luck.

I will be cheering for the Packers... I don't wish for anything good to happen for Ben Rapistberger.

-k

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Remember the thread where RickiBobbi was telling people that DaBears could win the Superbowl with Rex Grossman as quarterback? :lol:

Jay Cutler did a great Rex Grossman impression this week...

I only caught the 2nd half of the Steelers-Jets game, and based on how that went it's hard to believe that the game had been 24-0 at one point. I was hoping for the epic comeback, but no luck.

I will be cheering for the Packers... I don't wish for anything good to happen for Ben Rapistberger.

-k

As an avid follower of the Chicago Bears I can say with certainty that Jay Cutler did'nt play like Rex Grossman...

If he had played like Grossman,he would have thrown 3 pick and bee 5 for 20 before the end of the first half!!!

Originally,I was quite harsh on Cutler because it looked like he jaked an injury to get out of a bad erformance in a key game,and essentially,quit on his team.

That would inexcusable,under the circumstances!

He did'nt have a great half but it's starting to look like he tore an ACL and simply could'nt go.I have to say that I wish Lovie Smith went to Caleb Hanie in the first place instead of Todd Collins.It's fair to say that Collins has played his last game for the Bears because he looks completely shot.Other than the pick to Raji,which incedentally is the game winning play for the Packers,he played very well for an ostensible 3rd stringer.

If the Bear offence had got its act together in the first half,thing might have been different,but you can't cry over spilled milk because they played lousy for over 2 quarters.The Bear defence ,other than the first Green Bay drive,held a fairly potent offence in check.After all,Aaron Rodgers had less the 250 yads passing for the entire game.I wish the secondary had tightened it up a little,but they only gave up 14 points to a superior team.

The game kinda went the way I thought it would.I certainly was hoping for a Chicago win but my head said that Green Bay was a more talented team,at least at key positions on offence.So,I can't say I'm shocked that the Bears lost a close game.

Anyway...

Go Steelers!!!

No self respecting Chicago Bear fan can root for the Cheeseheads....

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Originally, I was quite harsh on Cutler

Because as usual, you didn't wait to know the reality of the situation. Instead, you wanted a QB with a torn MCL to go back into the game and give it a go. Not your finest moment.

Anyways, I'm really hoping the Packers win the Super Bowl. The Steelers have way too many annoying players on their team. Starting with pseudo-rapist Ben Roethlisberger and ending with Troy Polamalu. Sorry Troy, but having big hair doesn't mask your poor play anymore. And then there's Hines Ward. Probably the dirtiest wide receiver in the league.

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Because as usual, you didn't wait to know the reality of the situation. Instead, you wanted a QB with a torn MCL to go back into the game and give it a go. Not your finest moment.

Anyways, I'm really hoping the Packers win the Super Bowl. The Steelers have way too many annoying players on their team. Starting with pseudo-rapist Ben Roethlisberger and ending with Troy Polamalu. Sorry Troy, but having big hair doesn't mask your poor play anymore. And then there's Hines Ward. Probably the dirtiest wide receiver in the league.

Yes...

Because your track record on jumping to far worse conclusions is so stellar,Professor...

Speaking of jumping to conclusions,and being clued in to everything...You do know that Polamalu has been nursing an Achilles injury most of the year?

This would account for his "poor play",at least his "poor play" in your expert opinion...

Could you give us three(3) example of Hines Ward's "dirty" play at Wide Receiver?

Because I don't see it.What I do see is a refereshingly tough WR who actually goes downfield and blocks defenders,unlike most Prima Donna Wide Receivers (Randy Moss,Terrell Owens,Santonio Holmes,Mario Manningham,Marques Colston,Brandon Marshall etc)who find any reason at all to avoid almost any contact.

And if you think Hines Ward is an overly agressive receiver downfield,you should look up films on:

1.Mike Ditka

2.Jackie Smith

3.John Mackie

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No self respecting Chicago Bear fan can root for the Cheeseheads....

Yes they would! Oh... you said 'self-respecting... :D

Go Pack! Hey, if the Packers weren't there, I'd be rooting for the Bears, just because.

As for Cutler, that was a killer for sure. I mean, Hanie looked good, but I doubt he would have taken a games worth of pounding by the Packer D. Say what you want about Jay Cutler, but he was getting his share and he stood in there. I even thought he was starting to adjust too... bummer.

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Could you give us three(3) example of Hines Ward's "dirty" play at Wide Receiver?

The guy was voted the dirtiest player in the NFL. Probably for hits like these, totally from behind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY0KNh3MwOM

Here's a good discussion about Ward's cheap and dirty play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLFK5D8A8ng

He loves hitting guys when the plays over and they're not looking. It's his specialty. I guess he thinks it makes him tough.

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