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Actually, the in and out thing is perfectly reasonable to me as I understand that the Liberals used it for years. It only became illegal when Conservatives used it. Consider also that Elections Canada pressed charges before they supposedly knew that the decision was being overturned. hmmmm

They still do it with staff salaries to get under the ridding cap. Unless you believe the Liberal election expenses and Big name Liberals like Trudeau can spend all the way to the ridding cap to win their ridings with out paying 1 person an salary.

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Actually, the in and out thing is perfectly reasonable to me as I understand that the Liberals used it for years. It only became illegal when Conservatives used it. Consider also that Elections Canada pressed charges before they supposedly knew that the decision was being overturned. hmmmm

Just how many conspiracy theories are you going to invoke here?

Perhaps the Tories were just sloppier. Like I said, lots of drunk drivers manage to evade the cops and get home from the bar, but a few get nailed. Beyond that, even if your conspiracy were true, it doesn't make what the Tories did any more right. Defending your ill deeds by pointing out that other people are doing the same things won't carry much weight with a judge.

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The original 'in and out' practice

http://communities.canada.com/montrealgazette/blogs/onthehill/archive/2008/04/29/the-original-in-and-out-election-financing.aspx

Evidence of how the Liberals and the NDP engage in their own In-and-Out funding efforts

http://stevejanke.com/archives/246538.php

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Actually, the in and out thing is perfectly reasonable to me as I understand that the Liberals used it for years. It only became illegal when Conservatives used it. Consider also that Elections Canada pressed charges before they supposedly knew that the decision was being overturned. hmmmm

You are spreading false information. The Federal Public Prosecutions Office pressed charges - they are subset of the Federal Attorney Generals Office.

You are trying to pin elections Canada against the CPC when in fact it was the party embedded in the Attorney General's office that pressed the latest charges.

Get your facts straight.

Also electoral laws and spending caps have changed over the years. Get your facts straight you are spreading LIES.

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They still do it with staff salaries to get under the ridding cap. Unless you believe the Liberal election expenses and Big name Liberals like Trudeau can spend all the way to the ridding cap to win their ridings with out paying 1 person an salary.

You got facts report them to the Federal Public Prosecutions Office otherwise shut your trap you LIAR!

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You got facts report them to the Federal Public Prosecutions Office otherwise shut your trap you LIAR!

Once again you brilliantly defeat yourself in a debate...

Punked has much more credibility then you

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Once again you brilliantly defeat yourself in a debate...

Punked has much more credibility then you

Is lies called credibility in Alberta? Cause that is all Puked is presenting with baselesss information.

The comments stated are factually inaccurate and perpetuating the spread of FALSE INFORMATION.

NOTHING BACKS UP THE STATEMENT.

You have no credibility (or to make sure you arn't confused) basis for making this discussion valid by supporting a position that is contrary to the situation - not supported by facts or trial evidence, nor is something that is confirmed in the LEGITIMATE media.

Unless you have something other than false rumors to support your position is just as baseless as puked's.

THE LINKS QUOTE OUT OF CONTEXT WITH THE RULES IN PLACE BEFORE 2006

http://arts.anu.edu.au/democraticaudit/papers/20040908_sayers_young_elect_finance.pdf

JUNE 2003.... is when the rules changed and were put in effect in the 2004 election.

Will ending public financing and reopening corporate financing to parties -- actually save tax payers or open up more tax write offs to the wealthy? If it were to chage -- off topic but one must address what cost more 22 million before or the tax write offs after? So if intending to revert to the old way --- WILL IT COST MORE THAN PUBLIC FINANCING?

My line is to drop NFP status for parties and have them register as corporations - or at least remove partisan funding - have them entirely self fund and drop tax deductibilitiy --- this is totally tax cheating that only helps the parties. It isn't a public benefit. It is a loss to the government and tax cheating on the public dime (end taxes for that matter) but drop the subsidy to "political parties" this not only includes direct financing but NFP deductability! It has no place that I should pay for your party through tax deductions.

I'm all for ending finance controls in elections and ending NFP deductability outright.

But it doesn't change the fact the Conservatives broke election law to win the election. that is called "illegal" - that is called "fraudulent elections". That should be called "no more fraudulent party running government." No more party that intentionally breaks elections laws...

Edited by William Ashley
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You got facts report them to the Federal Public Prosecutions Office otherwise shut your trap you LIAR!

Follow the money seriously explain to me how the Liberal keep running campaigns with out paying one salary? I know how they do it I have friends who has worked campaigns. The campaigns gets the salary paid by central so that the local ridding can avoid the cap. It is a simple in and out scheme run the other direction but the spirit of the law broken just as much as when you run and in and out scheme going the other way.

So someone like Trudeau will rise a butt load of money for central then they will use their part of the cap to funnel that money into the ridding. So they end up paying for all the workers and it doesn't go in the ridding cap. So while Trudeau pays no Salary he has many people earning a Salary. Follow the money.

If you think one is wrong then the other must be wrong as well.

Edited by punked
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Follow the money seriously explain to me how the Liberal keep running campaigns with out paying one salary? I know how they do it I have friends who has worked campaigns. The campaigns gets the salary paid by central so that the local ridding can avoid the cap. It is a simple in and out scheme run the other direction but the spirit of the law broken just as much as when you run and in and out scheme going the other way.

So someone like Trudeau will rise a butt load of money for central then they will use their part of the cap to funnel that money into the ridding. So they end up paying for all the workers and it doesn't go in the ridding cap. So while Trudeau pays no Salary he has many people earning a Salary. Follow the money.

If you think one is wrong then the other must be wrong as well.

Lots of campaigns are run by volunteers and no salaries, nothing wrong with that. I have worked on many campaigns and never heard of anyone getting paid. Some of us do it because we believe in our party's vision.

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calling someone a liar without proof is the loser of a debate.

calling someone a cheat without proof is lying. and being a loser for thinking that calling someone a liar for calling someone a cheat without having evidence to back it up is being a loser. -----.

Edited by William Ashley
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Follow the money seriously explain

Do I need Cuba here?

Fact is that until you show the figures from ACTUAL statements you are talking BS. Painting a picture without a paintbrush or paint on a borrowed canvas. Get the facts get the evidence go to the public prosecutor. Right now you are spouting unsubstantiated LIES.

to me how the Liberal keep running campaigns with out paying one salary? I know how they do it I have friends who has worked campaigns. The campaigns gets the salary paid by central so that the local ridding can avoid the cap. It is a simple in and out scheme run the other direction but the spirit of the law broken just as much as when you run and in and out scheme going the other way.

This is not the same, but it does raise an interesting point - the allowance of activities of nationally employed campaign workers. This is a valid point but you need to show where this is stated in the law. This was based on ADVERTISING expenses NOT campaign worker salaries. I'd need to see if staff is covered and what the divide on a national campaign worker vs. a riding worker. SHOW ME THAT.

So someone like Trudeau will rise a butt load of money for central then they will use their part of the cap to funnel that money into the ridding. So they end up paying for all the workers and it doesn't go in the ridding cap. So while Trudeau pays no Salary he has many people earning a Salary. Follow the money.

Some money can legally go back there.. but it has to be for national purposes NOT local purposes the opposite applies to, it is a very defined threshold, the only question is on content. Honestly the law is not how I would make it BUT it is the law. (it also has to be on the right books) national people CAN work in any given riding - on national purposes.

If you think one is wrong then the other must be wrong as well.

I think you would like me to have it wrong but hopefully we can both realize it is the rules, and they ought be changed, but they were the rules in effect (the laws for that matter) at the time. And the law was broken.

If you can get information on how staffing works AND you have examples of this by all means I suggest you stop writing about it here and go to the public prosecutors office with it and see what flies.

The Conservatives broke the law. Who knows someone else may have, get REAL EVIDENCE of that and run with it. My stance will be totally different if you come back with real evidence and charges from the Public Prosecutors Office.

Saying this is how they must have done it, is not valid. I need to know how they do it. Even some credible evidence to support a search warrant.. something Right now you have hearsay and rumors NOT ENOUGH. You havn't even outlined how the national/riding divide to campaign workers is administered.. like I said educate us Show us how it works and how it was illegal, you havn't done that yet.

Edited by William Ashley
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It this case, it's not as if any of the accused candidates even received the rebate. They didn't spend taxpayers money, they fully documented the transactions, and they did not go over their spending limits either. The weren't trying to hide anything. This is a difference of opinion about accounting. Given that two judges have now seen it in different ways, it's also highly debatable whether they even broke the rules in transferring federal party money to help out the local candidates. Just because the money came from the national party, doesn't mean it was not legitimately used by the local candidate.

Elections Canada was never concerned about this method of accounting when it was the Liberals, NDP or the Bloc doing it, why is it suddenly a scandal when the Conservatives do it? This "do as we say, not as we do" attitude of the sycophants for the 'Natural Ruling Party' is getting a little tiring.

The good part is, the Liberal witch hunt is getting so desperate, it's simply turning people off. The more they squawk about these fake scandals, the higher the CPC support gets.

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Well, the idea that it was only a few members ripping us off is just an opinion. I can't believe it, since I don't believe a scheme as grand as AdScam could have happened without tacit support from the highest levels of the party. I believe that Chretien HAD to know!

There's absolutely no way that could be easily proven, of course. The party brass would never have been so stupid as " not to wipe the tapes", a la Richard Nixon. Let's face it, they're all lawyers! They perfectly understand the concept of "plausible deniability". Without high level support, things couldn't have been hidden as long as they were.

So a few low level goons took a hit for the team. Sorry, but although that may satisfy the technicalities of the law it just isn't enough for me to accept as complete, true and accurate.

And your faith in the justice system is just not enough to change MY opinion!

It's not my faith in anything. I was pissed when all of this came down, but I believe it was your boy Gomery who led the investigation and came up with the findings. Chretien had nothing to do with it, and nor did any MP. This one has been investigated thoroughly and here you sit still casting aspirsions on the innocent. But it suits the CPC and NDP to marginialize the Liberals by continuing to shout ADSCAM out whenever there is any hint of impropriety or in this case, illeagle activity by your parties. Really, it's no different than hearing about the NEP to stir emotions.

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It this case, it's not as if any of the accused candidates even received the rebate. They didn't spend taxpayers money, they fully documented the transactions, and they did not go over their spending limits either. The weren't trying to hide anything. This is a difference of opinion about accounting. Given that two judges have now seen it in different ways, it's also highly debatable whether they even broke the rules in transferring federal party money to help out the local candidates. Just because the money came from the national party, doesn't mean it was not legitimately used by the local candidate.

Elections Canada was never concerned about this method of accounting when it was the Liberals, NDP or the Bloc doing it, why is it suddenly a scandal when the Conservatives do it? This "do as we say, not as we do" attitude of the sycophants for the 'Natural Ruling Party' is getting a little tiring.

The good part is, the Liberal witch hunt is getting so desperate, it's simply turning people off. The more they squawk about these fake scandals, the higher the CPC support gets.

Actually, as you will see, it's not debatable. Please provide proof that the Liberals and NDP took part in this sort of activity.

Didn't you know as well that the WHOLE WORLD is against the CPC??? It's a conspiracy you all!!!

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William Ashley before I post the figures would you agree first.

1) It is very strange that Large campaign for a star candidate pays no a salary?

and

2) If the Liberals are using their cap centrally to pay campaign workers who only work on one campaign to beat the ridding caps that, that in itself is the same sort of in and out campaign run in the reverse direction?

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They still do it with staff salaries to get under the ridding cap. Unless you believe the Liberal election expenses and Big name Liberals like Trudeau can spend all the way to the ridding cap to win their ridings with out paying 1 person an salary.

I've worked on several campaigns in which the riding level paid staff was no one at all. Federal and provincial, some wins and some losses.

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Yah campaign manager not paid? You think Trudeau had an unpaid campaign manager?

I can't think of a campaign manager I've ever worked with who was paid! My Dad certainly refused payment for it, and so did my father-in-law. (Different parties.) Executive assistants were on payroll often enough, and secretaries sometimes, not always, depending on what we could drum up for volunteers. Sometimes a salaried analyst/advisor was sent by party hq to work some portion of the campaign, or someone else to train scrutineers if they didn't like the local talent. Fund raisers were often paid, but they were hardly limited to campaigns....

I honestly don't know whether Mr. Trudeau would need a paid campaign manager or not. Certainly I can imagine some extremely high quality volunteers thinking that developing a tight association with him might be time well invested. It would certainly be a plum opportunity.

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I can't think of a campaign manager I've ever worked with who was paid! My Dad certainly refused payment for it, and so did my father-in-law. (Different parties.) Executive assistants were on payroll often enough, and secretaries sometimes, not always, depending on what we could drum up for volunteers. Sometimes a salaried analyst/advisor was sent by party hq to work some portion of the campaign, or someone else to train scrutineers if they didn't like the local talent. Fund raisers were often paid, but they were hardly limited to campaigns....

I honestly don't know whether Mr. Trudeau would need a paid campaign manager or not. Certainly I can imagine some extremely high quality volunteers thinking that developing a tight association with him might be time well invested. It would certainly be a plum opportunity.

You sound like you haven't worked on an election in the last 20 years. Seriously I don't mean this to be rude. However maybe you right people work with the Liberals to get them elected not for money but so when the Liberals win instead of picking the best people for a job they will hand out patronage to those who worked on their campaign. Just another reason not to vote Liberal eh?

PS I don't actually think that because I know the Liberals pay their staff. I know if they can get then on the budget under the cap they will but if they go over they pay under the central campaign. This is an in and out scheme the Liberals have run for years. Next campaign ask someone at the office who is paying them, they will tell you.

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You sound like you haven't worked on an election in the last 20 years. Seriously I don't mean this to be rude. However maybe you right people work with the Liberals to get them elected not for money but so when the Liberals win instead of picking the best people for a job they will hand out patronage to those who worked on their campaign. Just another reason not to vote Liberal eh?

PS I don't actually think that because I know the Liberals pay their staff. I know if they can get then on the budget under the cap they will but if they go over they pay under the central campaign. This is an in and out scheme the Liberals have run for years. Next campaign ask someone at the office who is paying them, they will tell you.

Sorry punked, I think you are wrong on this one. I have worked on many campaigns including the last provincial and federal ones and nobody was paid, including the campaign managers. These are party people who do the work free and consider it an honour and a duty to their party.

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It must just bug the fuck out of the libs ,when this is the only type of scandal they can find. And for the press to say it is no different then adscam, now that shows how desperate the libs and the lib media are getting. You notice the closer harper get to a majority the more pathetic the libs and thier media get. Oh by the way ,have they made this months payment on the 40 mil yet?

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Oh by the way ,have they made this months payment on the 40 mil yet?

As I understand, some Liberal leadership contenders still haven't paid off their debt. If Liberal supporters opened their wallets maybe the Liberal Party could have afforded to bail out those contenders and wiped the slate clean.

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Sorry punked, I think you are wrong on this one. I have worked on many campaigns including the last provincial and federal ones and nobody was paid, including the campaign managers. These are party people who do the work free and consider it an honour and a duty to their party.

Do you mind me asking the party and ridding? Large campaigns almost always have paid staff. If your campaign had a budget of 5000 dollars then yah I know you didn't pay anyone. If you have a budget 80,000 you are in a different league.

I would just like to compare apples to apples here. Like I said maybe they didn't pay anyone I just don't see it.

Edited by punked
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