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The separate school system should be removed. It costs tax payers more money in the inefficiencies of running two schools in the same neighbourhood. More administrators, more buses, more beaurocracy, etc. No one will touch it though, it would be political suicide...

Beyond simple economics, it's also embarrasing to Ontario's human rights record on the world stage. Just read Waldman v. Canada, 1996 (http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/0/b3bfc541589cc30f802568690052e5d6?Opendocument).

If we consider that we have troops dying abroad in the the defence of international law and universal human rights, it is quite shameful that we should then lack the courage to uphold them here in Canada.

I agree with the more teaching days. Across all of teaching, though. I am an advocate for year round schooling with smaller breaks split up around the year. 2 week winter break, 2 week summer break, 2 week fall break, 2 week spring break. Many schools would need their AC upgraded for the summer though.

I'm for year-round schooling too, but only for 5-15-year olds. Remember that at the age of fifteen, they can legally work part time, so will need some time off school to work.

Not so sure about the language based schooling, sounds like it would create more inefficiency but, would service new Canadians very well.

What language-based schooling? I was referring to Hungary's second-language education policy. Whereas in Ontario English-medium schools must teach French, In Hungary they can teach the second-language of their choice as long as the course plan has been approved by the Ministry of Education for pedagogical soundness, and pupils can shoose the second-language to be tested in among languages already approved by the Ministry. Over 20 languages have already been approved. This provides clear advantages to Hungarians in teh world market, with Hungarians knowing a variety of different languages, compared to Ontarians who for the most part have access only to the English and French speaking worlds.

And I don't know where you came up with that statement about new Canadians? It would benefit all Ontarians, giving them more second-language choice in school besides just French, thus allowing them to choose according to global market demand.

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shifting taxes to a more user-pay system such as a gas tax

Isn't there already a tax on gas? :blink:

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What language-based schooling? I was referring to Hungary's second-language education policy. Whereas in Ontario English-medium schools must teach French, In Hungary they can teach the second-language of their choice as long as the course plan has been approved by the Ministry of Education for pedagogical soundness, and pupils can shoose the second-language to be tested in among languages already approved by the Ministry. Over 20 languages have already been approved. This provides clear advantages to Hungarians in teh world market, with Hungarians knowing a variety of different languages, compared to Ontarians who for the most part have access only to the English and French speaking worlds.

And I don't know where you came up with that statement about new Canadians? It would benefit all Ontarians, giving them more second-language choice in school besides just French, thus allowing them to choose according to global market demand.

Schools in Ontario do teach other languages with demand. Maybe not at the elementary level but, at the secondary level. German, Spanish, Italian, Mandarin etc. As long as there is a teacher to support it and student demand.

Language based schooling, you choose your school based on the second language offered. There would be the German school, French school, Italian School, Hindi School. Instead of splitting up schools based on faith, it is based on language instead.

That is all I meant. I disagree with teaching french only as well, it limits Ontario graduates. French will not be a powerhouse language in the future.

New Canadians would benefit because that is their main hindrance, many Asian immigrants aren't fluent in English. If we had schools that used both English and their native tongue, they could fare better.

Edited by MiddleClassCentrist

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Maybe so but myself, I could never vote for McGuinty and his gang ever again! What he did in Caledonia I found to be morally disgusting! I would vote for a pedophile before McGuinty! I know that sounds extreme but I mean it and anyone who has followed my posting here knows that I'm not known for that kind of hyperbole. I can't think of any better example of what could offend my libertarian/classic liberal roots than what happened at Caledonia.

For everyone who doesn't live in Caledonia, there are a lot more issues at stake than what's going on there. Even so, where is the Federal Government, especially the local M.P. - Diane Finley, who couldn't even be reached by local media, and yet there are enough brainless conservatives in Haldimand-Norfolk to re-elect here anyway!

Since I'm also a survivor of Bob Rae's NDP term of running Ontario that leaves me with Hudak by default.

And Bob Rae ended up running for leadership of the Liberal Party...so that would explain why he mostly attempted to drop, or at least water down most of the NDP election planks when he became Premier. The greatest failing of the ill-fated NDP Ontario Government was that they won as a fluke, at a time when Ontario voters had bad feelings about both of the major parties, and the NDP had very few members who were qualified to do the jobs they were elected for. If the Party had been gradually gaining strength over a period of years, they would have attracted more qualified people to run as candidates.

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Tim Hudak won the P.C. nomination thanks to his evangelical backers. He will be using his church base to try to win the Premier's Office, even though he is trying to avoid talking about abortion and all of the hot button religious right issues in the runup to a provincial election. I would take McGimpy again....or anyone other than this clown! All we can hope is that the Liberals and NDP don't do a vote split that allows another conservative to win a majority government with a minority of votes! But, the longer we have a federal Conservative majority in Ottawa, the less likely Ontario voters will want the same thing in Queen's Park! Ontario has a long reputation of voting the opposite party that occupies the Parliament.

I on't profess teh Christian Faith myself, but it would seem to me the PCs and the Greens are the only two parties speaking out against religious discrimination in the school system. The Liberals even SUPPORT and DEFEND it! And the NDP remained ever so silent on the topic. So it would seem to me that anyone who believes in justice will support either the Greens or the PCs. Rather than point fingers at voters who vote PC, why don't Liberals ask themselves why even non-evangelicals and even non-Christians might be attracted to them in the first place.

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I am not sure how the HST narrative will go in the provincial election. Once again it will probably come down to who is better able to convince people of their story rather than any correspondance of their story to the truth...

The HST will not be a feature of the election. The election will be about Mcguinty's massive budget deficits, and the disastrous way he's allowed his 'green' ideology to screw up Ontario's energy system and raise prices.

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I'll be voting candidate, not party.

Among the platforms I'll be voting for:

1. A plan to remove the separate school system from the Constitution Act,

2. Implementing UNESCo Resolution IV.4.422-4224.

I have a feeling you're going to be disappointed. I doubt any of your topics will even be mentioned by any of the major parties. :rolleyes:

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The separate school system should be removed. It costs tax payers more money in the inefficiencies of running two schools in the same neighbourhood.

Except the Catholics seem to run their school systems more efficiently and more effectively, with more discipline, and at a lower cost.

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For everyone who doesn't live in Caledonia, there are a lot more issues at stake than what's going on there. Even so, where is the Federal Government, especially the local M.P. - Diane Finley, who couldn't even be reached by local media, and yet there are enough brainless conservatives in Haldimand-Norfolk to re-elect here anyway!

Most likely she's been told to keep her mouth shut. The federal Tories wanted no part of this fight. They're extremely vulnerable to the left-wing narrative of being anti-minority. Any firm actions taken against the natives would play into the hands of the federal liberals and NDP, who would again raise that narrative - with the aid of allies in the media - to portray the Tories as a racist party. In a minority situation, they just weren't willing to take the risk.

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Premier Dad campaigned with brother David in the recent election.

According to one senior Liberal, David and Dalton landed on the Alta Vista doorstep of a self-identified Grit ready to speak his mind.

"You," he pointed to David, the for-mer opposition House leader under Michael Ignatieff, "you'll get my vote."

"But you," he turned to Dalton, the premier, "I want you off my porch."

---

One Eastern Ontario Liberal says that with the federal and municipal elections, voters have had two chances to vent their frustration at ballot boxes in the past six months.

"I think this takes some steam out of it, it releases some of the pressure," he said.

Other Liberals were less serene about the lessons from the federal election.

"There's something out there," one senior Liberal said bluntly. "There's a challenge with the Liberal brand itself."

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Ontario+Liberals+look/4782913/story.html

Just a few more months to go Dalton. Once you're liberated, you can throw your hat in the ring for the federal Liberal leadership. Unless of course brother David wants that job too then you can draw straws on who gets to go for it. :)

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Except the Catholics seem to run their school systems more efficiently and more effectively, with more discipline, and at a lower cost.

Source?

or

Stop talking out of yer arse.

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I on't profess teh Christian Faith myself, but it would seem to me the PCs and the Greens are the only two parties speaking out against religious discrimination in the school system. The Liberals even SUPPORT and DEFEND it! And the NDP remained ever so silent on the topic. So it would seem to me that anyone who believes in justice will support either the Greens or the PCs. Rather than point fingers at voters who vote PC, why don't Liberals ask themselves why even non-evangelicals and even non-Christians might be attracted to them in the first place.

Well, let's get our history straight first, since politicians depend on the collective ADHD of the public to erase past mistakes. The P.C.'s were in power for more than 40 years straight in Ontario, until David Petersen won in 85. And, although the Provincial Liberals drew most of their support from appeals to Catholic voters, it was near the end of the Conservative Dynasty in Ontario, when Bill Davis extended full funding to the Catholic School boards across Ontario.

When I was in high school, we met a lot of Italian and Polish kids who we never seen all our lives even if they lived in our neighbourhoods, because they went to Catholic primary schools, and were streamed in to the public high schools after grade 8. In Niagara Falls, there was only one Catholic high school...for girls, whose parents paid tuition to get them a good Catholic education...and any guys growing up in Niagara Falls in the 60's to the mid 70's would say they were much more fun than the girls in our schools when we got a chance to meet them hanging out on Clifton Hill over the summer holidays....but, wow, I'm really digressing down memory lane now! I think my point was that it was the Conservative Government that turned the Catholic School boards into the present doppleganger of the Public School boards. And most Ontarians would like to abolish the dual public school system that favours Catholics for a true public school system where NO religion has primacy.

Where the Conservatives miscalculated again, was when your previous Ontario Conservative leader - John Tory, ran with the idea of further fragmenting public education by making appeals to every other religion to grab a piece of education dollars and create their own private religious schools. This surprised a lot of people, because John Tory was not viewed as someone who would try to play the God card to win votes. Now that the Ontario P.C.'s have a fundamentalist fanatic as leader, we can expect he would do everything in his power to advance the interests of his two religions: Christian fundamentalism and Free Market fundamentalism!

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Hudak is evangelical? And married to the woman who lied to a public inquiry (Ipperwash)? I guess when you have god on your side (or claim to) you are absolved of all sins. I'd love for the media to ask Hudak whether Harris ordered the OPP to "get the [email protected]%!ing Indians out of the park!" Will he bold faced lie like his wife did to the judge? It's fortunate that Harris' Attorney General at least had a conscience and respect for the law.

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Source?

or

Stop talking out of yer arse.

The Fraser Institute recently reported on the rankings of 727 elementary and secondary schools across Canada. I haven't looked at the school rankings closely so I don't know which school board outperforms the other.

Forum members and guests can download the results of this report and view the ranking of their child's school.

Elementary schools

http://ontario.compareschoolrankings.org/elementary/Default.aspx

Secondary schools

http://ontario.compareschoolrankings.org/secondary/Default.aspx

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The Fraser Institute recently reported on the rankings of 727 elementary and secondary schools across Canada. I haven't looked at the school rankings closely so I don't know which school board outperforms the other.

Forum members and guests can download the results of this report and view the ranking of their child's school.

Elementary schools

http://ontario.compareschoolrankings.org/elementary/Default.aspx

Secondary schools

http://ontario.compareschoolrankings.org/secondary/Default.aspx

I did a quick check and compared my local public school and catholic schools. The catholic schools achieved lower grades where I live. In Secondary, most Public schools blew the Catholics out of the water too. I'll look at the full report later but, it probably comes down to the same old location of school and type of parents are sending their kids there.

The difference in the two high schools was staggering though! The public high school (which is an old farm community school) is in the top 13%, the brand new and shiny catholic school is in the bottom 40%.

Catholic schools can cost less, that is true. But it is often done by reducing the opportunities for youth to be educated on in demand or modern careers. By offering 4 forced religion credits they effectively kill the ability for medium to small high schools to run high quality skills courses relating to engineering, robotics and design of technology.

I'd never send my kid to a catholic school, just because of the 4 lost optional courses for interest/career learning.

Edited by MiddleClassCentrist

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Well, let's get our history straight first, since politicians depend on the collective ADHD of the public to erase past mistakes. The P.C.'s were in power for more than 40 years straight in Ontario, until David Petersen won in 85. And, although the Provincial Liberals drew most of their support from appeals to Catholic voters, it was near the end of the Conservative Dynasty in Ontario, when Bill Davis extended full funding to the Catholic School boards across Ontario.

When I was in high school, we met a lot of Italian and Polish kids who we never seen all our lives even if they lived in our neighbourhoods, because they went to Catholic primary schools, and were streamed in to the public high schools after grade 8. In Niagara Falls, there was only one Catholic high school...for girls, whose parents paid tuition to get them a good Catholic education...and any guys growing up in Niagara Falls in the 60's to the mid 70's would say they were much more fun than the girls in our schools when we got a chance to meet them hanging out on Clifton Hill over the summer holidays....but, wow, I'm really digressing down memory lane now! I think my point was that it was the Conservative Government that turned the Catholic School boards into the present doppleganger of the Public School boards. And most Ontarians would like to abolish the dual public school system that favours Catholics for a true public school system where NO religion has primacy.

Where the Conservatives miscalculated again, was when your previous Ontario Conservative leader - John Tory, ran with the idea of further fragmenting public education by making appeals to every other religion to grab a piece of education dollars and create their own private religious schools. This surprised a lot of people, because John Tory was not viewed as someone who would try to play the God card to win votes. Now that the Ontario P.C.'s have a fundamentalist fanatic as leader, we can expect he would do everything in his power to advance the interests of his two religions: Christian fundamentalism and Free Market fundamentalism!

Maybe the Tories did start the problem, but now the Liberals are the ones defending it while the Tories are trying to remove it.

Now as for funding for religious schools, Sweden's voucher programme seems to be working quite well in Swden. You're not going to tell me now that Sweden is a fanatical religious state, are you?

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Maybe the Tories did start the problem, but now the Liberals are the ones defending it while the Tories are trying to remove it.

They are not trying to remove it in the manner that the majority of Ontarians want, as evidenced in the trouncing that John Tory got in the last provincial election! Most people want one secular public school system -- not the creation of a whole bunch of other religious schools, besides the Catholics, with public education tax dollars!

Now as for funding for religious schools, Sweden's voucher programme seems to be working quite well in Swden. You're not going to tell me now that Sweden is a fanatical religious state, are you?

Provide us some references for Sweden's education programme, because the voucher plans in the U.S. and England have made things worse, as difficult or slow-witted kids are removed from the charter schools, so they don't bring down their average test scores. Some have turned into separate religious schools which further balkanize ethnic communities.

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They are not trying to remove it in the manner that the majority of Ontarians want, as evidenced in the trouncing that John Tory got in the last provincial election! Most people want one secular public school system -- not the creation of a whole bunch of other religious schools, besides the Catholics, with public education tax dollars!

Not too many voted Green either. So do we need a Progressive Conservative Green coalition? That could be interesting to say the least. Or how about we just call it the Blue Green Party?

Provide us some references for Sweden's education programme, because the voucher plans in the U.S. and England have made things worse, as difficult or slow-witted kids are removed from the charter schools, so they don't bring down their average test scores. Some have turned into separate religious schools which further balkanize ethnic communities.

Seeing that it's still relatively new (introduced in the 90's, but as far as evaluating the long-term impact of education reforms, that's still recent), there is as yet little research done on it. You could refer to this:

http://ftp.iza.org/dp3691.pdf

According to this report, switching to the voucher program has led to barely measurable improvements to cost efficiency and performance (contrary to what many free-marketeers have often proposed). However, aside from the techincal aspects of economic efficiency, it also grants more freedom of choice, which though not measurable in economic terms, is a benefit none the less.

At least it's been showing so far to not be any less efficient than our system. So at lest that argument's out of the way. And no, they're not teaching Biblical literalism in science class either. One thing it could do for Ontario though is eliminate constitutionally mandated discrimination on the basis of religion.

We should bear in mind too that there are various kinds of voucher systems in existence in favious countries operating within different rules. It's success also depends on the rules within which it operates. In Sweden for instance, there are still various rules relating to the vouchers (e.g. all schools must still adhere to the national curriculum, toping up is not permitted, etc.) Surprisingly enough, in Sweden even the teachers' union went along with it in the end:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/3717744.stm

So again, maybe the US voucher systems were ill conceived.

Edited by Machjo

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Nothing disturbs me more than the thought of Dalton Mcguinty being premier for another 4 years. Tim Hudak is not going to be the man to replace Mcguinty. The Conservatives need to present a better candidate and not just bank on voters distaste for Mcguinty to win them this election. Hudak has to much Harris stink on him; he should have been replaced by now.

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Nothing disturbs me more than the thought of Dalton Mcguinty being premier for another 4 years. Tim Hudak is not going to be the man to replace Mcguinty. The Conservatives need to present a better candidate and not just bank on voters distaste for Mcguinty to win them this election. Hudak has to much Harris stink on him; he should have been replaced by now.

Spot on..

Harris/Flaherty stink,to be precise...

And now,with the right wing hilljack kooks like Randy Hillier seemingly having the ability to call the shots from behind the scenes,that is one very scary Ontario PC party...

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Nothing disturbs me more than the thought of Dalton Mcguinty being premier for another 4 years. Tim Hudak is not going to be the man to replace Mcguinty. The Conservatives need to present a better candidate and not just bank on voters distaste for Mcguinty to win them this election. Hudak has to much Harris stink on him; he should have been replaced by now.

Neither is in my riding, so it really doesn't matter to me. I'll be looking at my local candidate.

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Not too many voted Green either. So do we need a Progressive Conservative Green coalition? That could be interesting to say the least. Or how about we just call it the Blue Green Party?

I voted for the Green Party! Since I live in a safe NDP riding, the results are a foregone conclusion. 40% of eligible voters did not bother casting a ballot. I guess we can take that as evidence that there are at least as many eligible voters who have totally lost faith in our electoral system as there are for fools and zealots who voted for a Conservative government!

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I voted for the Green Party! Since I live in a safe NDP riding, the results are a foregone conclusion. 40% of eligible voters did not bother casting a ballot. I guess we can take that as evidence that there are at least as many eligible voters who have totally lost faith in our electoral system as there are for fools and zealots who voted for a Conservative government!

The problem with electoral reform is that we need two referendums.

First referedum:

Do you want to change FPTP

1 - Yes

2 - No

Second Referendum:

Which system should we use?

1 - AV

2 - AVP

3 - MMP

And we'll likely only ever get 1.

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There is probably a thread somewhere about FPTP vs PR.

We haven't heard anything about that since the NDP won more seats than their popular vote ( see here) and the Green Party won a seat.

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