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Keep party names off the ballot and there is no issue with FPTP. The problem comes when you put party names on the ballot, thus confounding the candidate with his party.

Edited by Machjo

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The problem with electoral reform is that we need two referendums.

First referedum:

Do you want to change FPTP

1 - Yes

2 - No

Second Referendum:

Which system should we use?

1 - AV

2 - AVP

3 - MMP

And we'll likely only ever get 1.

The biggest problem for voting reform is that ruling parties will only make a half-assed effort to carry it out even if it's a campaign promise. Our last ONtario election could serve as Exhibit A, since the McGuinty Government put MMP on the ballot as a referendum question, but made no effort to support it themselves, and only put out one or two flyers explaining MMP to the public. I heard so many stupid comments about the proportionally allotted mpp's being unaccountable, and increasing the cost of the Provincial Parliament...even though the total number of MPP's would have still been less than the old House before Harris cut the number of seats to match the federal riding boundaries, that I knew it was a lost cause. Parliamentary reform is going to have to start from the ground up, before anything can be enacted in law. Hopefully that day will come while we still have something that resembles a democracy!

Edited by WIP

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I guess we can take that as evidence that there are at least as many eligible voters who have totally lost faith in our electoral system
Or they are people who simply don't care about politics. It is silly to assume that people who don't vote would vote if the electoral system changed.

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Or they are people who simply don't care about politics. It is silly to assume that people who don't vote would vote if the electoral system changed.

I'm sure the factor of "why bother" comes to mind.

If you know your vote won't count in your riding, why show up?

We might increase participation by making individual votes count more but, lets face it. Canada is a complacent and apathetic country for the most part. ... at least the almost 40% of people who didn't vote are. We won't get all of them but, some of them will vote.

The main thing I want to see is that if someone gets a majority, they actually earn a majority. I don't care what political stripe you are, 40% is not a ticket to shape a country in your vision. That is why I like AV, majorities still exist and every candidate has a majority preference mandate.

Edited by MiddleClassCentrist

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Maybe so but myself, I could never vote for McGuinty and his gang ever again! What he did in Caledonia I found to be morally disgusting! I would vote for a pedophile before McGuinty! I know that sounds extreme but I mean it and anyone who has followed my posting here knows that I'm not known for that kind of hyperbole. I can't think of any better example of what could offend my libertarian/classic liberal roots than what happened at Caledonia.

Since I'm also a survivor of Bob Rae's NDP term of running Ontario that leaves me with Hudak by default.

Please explain to me what McGuinty did in Caledonia that was SO disgusting that you would place your mark on a ballot for a pedophile to operate provincial governance while you espouse 'morals'. Not only does your comment sound extreme to the nth degree, I have visions of parents and children running away at high speed from what you would consider acceptable representation.

Maybe your senses have been damaged by much more than anything McGuinty could ever throw in your direction, but that is no excuse for someone, like yourself, who is so offended by what happened in Caledonia to support more reckless leadership. No?

And btw, good ole Bob inhereted a deficit that was never reported to the public by the previous government. He's also a Liberal MP now. No?

Haldimand-Norfolk is pretty easy to figure out when it comes to political representation. One could paint a wooden sawhorse blue and put it's name on the ballot and it would win an election. This is conservative country.

I've gotta say that your process of elimination when casting a vote on a ballot is disturbing with the eenie, meenie, minee, moe approach. A vote for Hudak ensures that the people of Ontario will save about two bucks per case of beer. At least they'll be able to drink more for less while they sit in the dark and the cold because they can't afford to keep the lights on and the heat running while they walk to work if they have a job to get to.

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Spot on..

Harris/Flaherty stink,to be precise...

And now,with the right wing hilljack kooks like Randy Hillier seemingly having the ability to call the shots from behind the scenes,that is one very scary Ontario PC party...

Not sure if I follow your logic, Jack. Are you saying that a Tory leader should NOT look like a Tory? Wouldn't that make him just like a Liberal?

Why bother having a Tory party if they're all the same? Why bother having elections?

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Please explain to me what McGuinty did in Caledonia that was SO disgusting that you would place your mark on a ballot for a pedophile to operate provincial governance while you espouse 'morals'. Not only does your comment sound extreme to the nth degree, I have visions of parents and children running away at high speed from what you would consider acceptable representation.

Maybe your senses have been damaged by much more than anything McGuinty could ever throw in your direction, but that is no excuse for someone, like yourself, who is so offended by what happened in Caledonia to support more reckless leadership. No?

And btw, good ole Bob inhereted a deficit that was never reported to the public by the previous government. He's also a Liberal MP now. No?

Haldimand-Norfolk is pretty easy to figure out when it comes to political representation. One could paint a wooden sawhorse blue and put it's name on the ballot and it would win an election. This is conservative country.

I've gotta say that your process of elimination when casting a vote on a ballot is disturbing with the eenie, meenie, minee, moe approach. A vote for Hudak ensures that the people of Ontario will save about two bucks per case of beer. At least they'll be able to drink more for less while they sit in the dark and the cold because they can't afford to keep the lights on and the heat running while they walk to work if they have a job to get to.

Sorry about the delay. I must have missed your reply.

To answer in haphazard order :P I don't use "eenie, meenie minee moe". I use "smells bad, smells REAL bad!, smells HORRIBLE!, and "God help me!" Obviously, when faced with choices that ALL stink that leaves only the least offending choice.

If you checked the voting history of Haldimand-Norfolk you would see that you're dead wrong! One of the most popular Liberals was Bob Speller, who was displaced only two terms ago by Diane Finley. Bob had an agricultural background himself and was incredibly popular. Unfortunately, he had the albatross of first Dion and then Ignatief. If not for that it would have been VERY possible for him to regain the seat! Finley has no understanding of farm folks it seems and her strategy with Caledonia has been simply to hide.

As for Bob Rae, who cares that he inherited a deficit? He lost respect not for the cards he was given but for the stupid way he played them! Spending your way out of a depression didn't work in the 30's and it didn't work for Rae either.

Now for Caledonia!

As a classic Liberal, one of the most basic responsibilities of government is to provide equal protection of the law to all citizens. McGuinty broke that trust. He literally left an entire town without the protection of the Law, merely to cover his own political ass!

McGuinty had castigated Harris while he was in Opposition so badly about the protest at Ipperwash,which had resulted in the tragic death of Dudley George, that the last thing he wanted was any escalation of violence with the protest at Caledonia. So he basically allowed the natives free rein. Unless they actually started shooting it seemed there was no way the OPP would stand up to them. We even have video footage now showing OPP officers between natives and townsfolk, with their backs to the natives! In effect, they were protecting the natives from the townsfolk!

If you haven't already, you should read Christie Blatchford's recent book "Helpless", which is an account of the incidents leading up to and during the protest, relating stores of townsfolk literally driven out of their homes and others living beside (but NOT past!" the dividing lines who phoned the OPP for help when they were being harassed and were told "Sorry! You're on your own!"

Her book takes no side as to the right or wrong of the native land claims dispute. It simply recounts the TACTICS of the protest! Virtually all the native protest tactics were aimed at the townsfolk of Caledonia. Officially they may have been targeted at the federal and provincial governments but in the real world the people immediately hurt were the citizens of the town. Perhaps McGuinty could not be expected to provide an instant settlement to a dispute going back generations but he had a sacred duty to protect citizens, both native and NON-native!

It's obvious why he was so lax with the natives. After the Oka protest in Quebec any Premier in Canada knows that natives might very well protest violently. The images of the native warrior "Lasagna" are still fresh in many peoples' minds. Non-natives rarely go to such extremes. They usually obey the Law and do what they're told. So it became easy to make them sacrificial lambs.

When a government abandons its responsibility to deliver the protection of the Law to its citizens then I lose all respect for it. McGuinty is nothing but a mealy-mouthed political opportunist who obviously has no respect at all for the most basic duties of his office.

This was not a case of a political choice about the HST or whatever. It was far more basic than that! Two CHCH-TV camera men were being beaten up and robbed by native protesters while OPP officers watched and did NOTHING!

McGuinty's approach was and is exceedingly dangerous. Vigilantism is not bred by guys named Bubba who like to ride around in pickup trucks equipped with shotgun racks. No, it is bred by ordinary citizens who lose faith in government to protect them. We are very lucky that so far things have not gotten worse in Caledonia.

If the police won't protect you from being beaten or having your property stolen then what good is government at all?

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Not sure if I follow your logic, Jack. Are you saying that a Tory leader should NOT look like a Tory? Wouldn't that make him just like a Liberal?

Why bother having a Tory party if they're all the same? Why bother having elections?

Randy Hillier is a Tory???

Randy Hillier is a nutjob!

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Randy Hillier is a Tory???

Randy Hillier is a nutjob!

Yep! No argument here!

There's always one in every family, it seems.

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It's Non-natives rarely go to such extremes. They usually obey the Law and do what they're told. So it became easy to make them sacrificial lambs.

Police shooting protest in Montreal turns violent

Riots erupt in Vancouver after Canucks loss

G20 protest violence prompts over 400 arrests

Hockey joy turns to violence in wake of Canadiens' victory

Police Shooting Leads To Montreal Riot

Squamish Five

FLQ

Crude bomb targets Montreal Jewish community centre

...and on and on we go.

Clearly you are full of shit. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

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And you Sir are so partisan that if a white man discovered a cure for cancer and gave it for free to all natives on reserves you would castigate him for putting doctors on reserves out of work!

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Hudak is evangelical? And married to the woman who lied to a public inquiry (Ipperwash)? I guess when you have god on your side (or claim to) you are absolved of all sins. I'd love for the media to ask Hudak whether Harris ordered the OPP to "get the [email protected]%!ing Indians out of the park!" Will he bold faced lie like his wife did to the judge? It's fortunate that Harris' Attorney General at least had a conscience and respect for the law.

I can answer that, I knew one of the OPP's and he did. That's all I'm saying.

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And you Sir are so partisan that if a white man discovered a cure for cancer and gave it for free to all natives on reserves you would castigate him for putting doctors on reserves out of work!

Which has absolutely nothing to do with anything. There is no partisanship here, I just countered your bullshit bigotry with the facts. All you can retort with is some whiney speculation about what I may or may not do in some make-believe scenario you concocted to try and soothe your sore feelings for being outed.

So you are still full of shit.

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It is fair to say though, there are are a disproportionate number of aboriginal people involved in violent and organized crime. They also occupy a disproportionate part of the prison population.

Now, why is that? Well, it's rather complex. I'm sure it has something to do with poverty, a lack of education, and over crowding...on, and also boredom - that's also why they have so many children at such a young age - but there are also cultural reasons for it.

Edited by Smallc

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It is fair to say though, there are are a disproportionate number of aboriginal people involved in violent and organized crime. They also occupy a disproportionate part of the prison population.

Now, why is that? Well, it's rather complex. I'm sure it has something to do with poverty, a lack of education, and over crowding...on, and also boredom - that's also why they have so many children at such a young age - but there are also cultural reasons for it.

Like what? Please, do tell.

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Like what? Please, do tell.

I'm not talking about traditional native culture, I'm talking about a very widespread culture that exists today among aboriginal youth for a variety of reasons. Among the youth and middle aged, the culture is usually celebrated, and is more than okay to many of them. It's rather discouraging.

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I'm not talking about traditional native culture, I'm talking about a very widespread culture that exists today among aboriginal youth for a variety of reasons. Among the youth and middle aged, the culture is usually celebrated, and is more than okay to many of them. It's rather discouraging.

Like what? Please, do tell....

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Alcoholism, drug abuse, gambling addiction, obesity, violent crime, just to name a few of the things that are more than common. If pointing out the sad state of affairs that surround on and even many off reserve, urban natives makes me a bigot, then so be it.

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Which has absolutely nothing to do with anything. There is no partisanship here, I just countered your bullshit bigotry with the facts. All you can retort with is some whiney speculation about what I may or may not do in some make-believe scenario you concocted to try and soothe your sore feelings for being outed.

So you are still full of shit.

So where is the white example of a protesting armed warrior like Lasagna?

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So where is the white example of a protesting armed warrior like Lasagna?

"white?" Who said anything about "white?" Oh, now I see...

At first it is "non-native" and now it is "white." To some people they are not one in the same thing. But to you, I see that it is. Especially when you make a pathetic appeal.

And your question is retarded Bill, considering all the links I provided you earlier. If you need to ask that question than your more ignorant than I presumed. And I don't mean "ignorant" in the sense of rude, I mean it in the sense of retarded in your lack of knowledge even after you have been easily proven wrong.

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Alcoholism, drug abuse, gambling addiction, obesity, violent crime, just to name a few of the things that are more than common. If pointing out the sad state of affairs that surround on and even many off reserve, urban natives makes me a bigot, then so be it.

Well then, let's review:

It is fair to say though, there are are a disproportionate number of aboriginal people involved in violent and organized crime. They also occupy a disproportionate part of the prison population.

Now, why is that? Well, it's rather complex. I'm sure it has something to do with poverty, a lack of education, and over crowding...on, and also boredom - that's also why they have so many children at such a young age - but there are also cultural reasons for it.

Seems to me that "Alcoholism, drug abuse, gambling addiction, obesity, violent crime" could also be caused by "poverty, lack of education and overcrowding...and also boredom" wouldn't you agree?

Or are you saying that "Alcoholism, drug abuse, gambling addiction, obesity, violent crime" are cultural traits intentionally passed down from one generation to the next as some sort of cultural values?

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"white?" Who said anything about "white?" Oh, now I see...

At first it is "non-native" and now it is "white." To some people they are not one in the same thing. But to you, I see that it is. Especially when you make a pathetic appeal.

And your question is retarded Bill, considering all the links I provided you earlier. If you need to ask that question than your more ignorant than I presumed. And I don't mean "ignorant" in the sense of rude, I mean it in the sense of retarded in your lack of knowledge even after you have been easily proven wrong.

Nice evasion!

Where is the white (or non-native, if you prefer) equivalent to Lasagna?

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Or are you saying that "Alcoholism, drug abuse, gambling addiction, obesity, violent crime" are cultural traits intentionally passed down from one generation to the next as some sort of cultural values?

They have very much become that.

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Nice evasion!

Where is the white (or non-native, if you prefer) equivalent to Lasagna?

I provided you plenty of links to "equivalent" and worse. You are still bullshitting and you know it. And now you are just embarassing yourself.

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They have very much become that.

Cite your source now. Thanks.

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