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Oh, it is true all right.

Third party management is evidence that management of resources by both government and First Nation has failed spectacularly. It doesn't happen overnight, it occurs only rarely and only after years of nobody doing anything to fix the problem. What are the consequnces to DIAND staff for their mismanagement? None, nobody gets fired for screwign up, the only way to get flushed is to be caught up in periodic federal downsizing games every 20 years of so. To the band? Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. The white guys in suits leave, scores are settled and the village returns to business as usual. The money still flows uninterrupted and there will likely be more of it now.

Generally I agree with you on this.

You are, however, too cynical.

Sometimes the new boss(es) are better than the old boss(es) at the band level. Once again, in my personal experience, which you can choose to disbelieve all you want.

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I think it's hard to be too cynical about politics. It's even harder to not be cynical about how poorly the money that goes to First Nations is managed. I think we have a good amount of evidence by now to show that the vast majority is squandered. I don't mean squandered like the Liberals and Conservatives squander (as in bad ideas that are poorly implemented) but more in a pathetically indept, morally bankrupt and futile sort of squandering.

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I think it's hard to be too cynical about politics. It's even harder to not be cynical about how poorly the money that goes to First Nations is managed. I think we have a good amount of evidence by now to show that the vast majority is squandered. I don't mean squandered like the Liberals and Conservatives squander (as in bad ideas that are poorly implemented) but more in a pathetically indept, morally bankrupt and futile sort of squandering.

I don't think the typical Canadian has any clue as to if there is value for money being spent.

I know that I can go to a band, see the water treatment facility, see how much it cost, and scratch my head thinking "why did we pay for that in the middle of nowhere?"

But at least I can come to that conclusion because I actually have seen the asset and know the cost and documented it for the audit file.

99.9% of us know dick yet we speak like we know it all.

Edited by msj
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I think we have a good amount of evidence by now to show that the vast majority is squandered.

No. You don't think. Because there is no such evidence. In fact, all of the evidence is to the contrary, but you'll just go on ignoring it in favour of your prejudices.
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An interesting choice of words, regime is. Honestly, if the First Nations don't feel their needs are being met, then I don't blame them for wanting to do something high profile. Wail all you like about extortion, I suppose, but the proposals to have guaranteed educational and housing funds doesn't seem like a horrid thing for the government to have to provide.

Well there's an antiquated way for the FN's to get their needs met; go to work.

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Well there's an antiquated way for the FN's to get their needs met; go to work.

Shut up with your racist crap already. We're talking about water treatment, sewage, schools, healthcare, and low-income housing... you know, all of those things that the government has committed itself to. You've already been shown I don't know how many times that Registered Indians pay taxes under particular circumstances. And your crap about them being unemployed is nothing more than a racist stereotype that you keep perpetuating, which is shameful coming from someone from one of the most oppressed groups in history.

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Please don't bait me into an unfortunate response. I believe that everyone is capable of raising their children appropriately and instilling a work ethic.

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Please don't bait me into an unfortunate response. I believe that everyone is capable of raising their children appropriately and instilling a work ethic.

And I think your ridiculous response was no better than throwing around any other racial stereotype.

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Harper only has himself to blame on this. When is came to PMO, he get rid of the Accord that Martin had create which was a start to mending relationship between FN and the government. I've heard the FN will go back to Britain where the treaties and promises were first made. I think the GG is going to be busy this year. Any non-native who is quick to judge, could perhaps go live among the FN and then come back and tell the rest of us what is was like for them.
Agreed. It's a complicated shake-down.
That's a pretty racist thing to say. You think because a person is Aboriginal they're unemployed. Nice.
Racist?

Gimme a break.

Finally just maybe the FN can have a better future IF the PM keep his promise to the FN people and I have to say the PM did the right thing by staying longer and talking to the chiefs. Lets hope this is not another false promise that has been made to the FN.
WTF? Should Harper agree with the Hell's Angels?
On Vancouver Island I know of one where it no doubt has led to a success.

In another case, the threat led to a change in leadership/management which led to success.

But I'm not going to discuss specific bands for confidentiality purposes.

I just love such silent deals ...

----

Most Aboriginals in Canada suffer. Honest people, they live under the terror of a local mafia. The native mafia extorts money from Canadian taxpayers - with the connivance of English Canadian Leftists/NDP. The aboriginal mafia threatens legitimate government - leftist government folds, pays the ransom.

Meanwhile, ordinary aboriginal people manage as best they can, and receive a bad reputation.

Edited by August1991
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I just love such silent deals ...

It isn't silent.

But you would have to know where to go on the web, how to read financial statements, and other such stuff.

No, I'm not going to point you in that direction because I don't want to have to explain PSAB to anyone (accounting rules for the public sector).

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It isn't silent.

But you would have to know where to go on the web, how to read financial statements, and other such stuff.

No, I'm not going to point you in that direction because I don't want to have to explain PSAB to anyone (accounting rules for the public sector).

msj, you always have the secret, special method to riches. You have the knowledge, and the rest of us don't. For you, it's all about accounting and tax tricks.

----

It remains that most aboriginals in Canada do not live well. This is a scourge for them, and for us.

The federal Liberal solution of the past 40 years or so has arguably made matters worse; it has certainly not improved the life of most aboriginals. Instead, aboriginal communities have become chunks of Haiti in Canada.

Such is the result of 50 years of pilot projects of Indian Affairs, Save The World, UNICEF, NGOs, CIDA and well-meaning bureaucrats with other people's money. Haiti is still impoverished, and so are aboriginal communities in Canada.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the world, billions move far beyond poverty.

Edited by August1991
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I've heard the FN will go back to Britain where the treaties and promises were first made.

Britain has nothing to do with it; absolutely nothing. It's been that way since before the patriation of the constitution.

Canada, the Aboriginal people argued, lacked the authority to sever the old relationship between native people and the imperial Crown without Aboriginal consent. Their challenge to the legality of patriation ultimately led to the judgement made by Chief Justice Lord Denning in January 1982, in which he confirmed that treaty relationships entered by native people in Canada before 1923 had indeed been with the Crown in respect of the UK. Through constitutional evolution, however, this Crown had gradually split apart so that the treaty rights of Aboriginal peoples had come to be vested exclusively with the Crown in the right of Canada.

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That amount of money isn't actually forwarded directly to the Reserves for the Chiefs to control. Any money that they do receive can only be spent on things that are approved by the Ministry. The fact is that the amount of money that they do end up forwarding to the Reserves for their control is wholly insufficient for what they need to cover with it.

Are you suggesting that money is somehow lost between parliament and the First Nations leadership? Multiple billions of dollars are allocated by parliament yearly for First Nations; yet, there are still reserves where people live in deplorable conditions. Where is the money disappearing to, then? And if it is disappearing, it doesn't say much of the government's auditing abilities.

Are you also suggesting the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs approves six-figure salaries for chiefs and perks for band council members?

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I'm saying that some of the money from the full figure you're offering goes to federal and provincial departments to administer certain things for First Nations. The money is not handed over to the Bands in its entirety. So when you say they've been "given" billions, that's not exactly true.

Edited by cybercoma
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So when you say they've been "given" billions, that's not exactly true.

Except I was never specific about where the mismanagement of the money was taking place. It could be only in Ottawa, it could be in some provincial agency, it could be on some or all the reserves, it could be all of the above. My point was: perhaps the true problem isn't the amount of money being spent, but how it's being spent.

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Britain has nothing to do with it; absolutely nothing. It's been that way since before the patriation of the constitution.

And also couldn't the "Crown" be regarded as the Queen sitting as Queen of Canada, not of the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

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msj, you always have the secret, special method to riches. You have the knowledge, and the rest of us don't. For you, it's all about accounting and tax tricks.

----

Well, educate yourself and then you will know too....

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And also couldn't the "Crown" be regarded as the Queen sitting as Queen of Canada, not of the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

Chief Justice Lord Denning in 1982 said that is exactly the case: Canada is not under the British Crown any longer; it is a sovereign kingdom with its own crown. If First Nations chiefs are looking to go to London for help from anyone other than Elizabeth II herself in dealing with the Canadian government, they're more than 80 years too late.

[ed.: +]

Edited by g_bambino
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Chief Justice Lord Denning in 1982 said that is exactly the case: Canada is not under the British Crown any longer; it is a sovereign kingdom with its own crown. If First Nations chiefs are looking to go to London for help from anyone other than Elizabeth II herself in dealing with the Canadian government, they're more than 80 years too late.

[ed.: +]

Thanks for confirming my instinct. Wasn't it around 1953 that the Crowns were theoretically separated?

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Well, educate yourself and then you will know too....
Me?

Please, msj, spread your secret knowledge of Canada's arcane tax system to the aborginals of Canada.

Surely Canada's aborginals need to understand how to use the tax system to be better/richer/more productive people and contribute to humanity. [/sarcasm]

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There are some clueless posts in here with regard to reserves.

I live on a reserve in northern Alberta, and I can tell you the financial waste here is staggering. Commenters like "cybercoma" should live in places like this, and then see how "racist" it is to complain about the money we're throwing away here, and on most if not all reserves in this country.

The things you've heard are tame compared to the reality I see everyday. The stories you've seen on the news barely scratch the surface. Attawapiskat is the norm, not the exception.

If all Canadian taxpayers had the opportunity I've had to live on a large reserve for a few years, they'd be singing a far different tune with regard to federal funding, and the reserve system entirely.

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Ottawa Citizen

What nonsense is this? It's extortion. The Canadian State is a democratic federal regime with constitutional guarantees for minorities. It must stand up to this mob, mafia play.

I think Canadians are caught between a rock and a hard place, preventing any quick resolution of the conflict, for the following reasons:

(1) Some aboriginal leaders are calling and encouraging civil disobedience to stop pipelines projects, disrupt legal construction sites and so forth, eroding any chance they will have a majority of Canadians supporting their plight

(2) The corruption of band councils and among chiefs is legendary. The whole reserve is coming apart, while those on the council have houses that would be the envy of people in the suburbs. This makes it rather difficult for the federal government to simply transfer them payments and give them complete self-government

(3) The funds invested in Aboriginal communities were for a long period (in regards to housing anyways) allocated based on a normal Canadian birthrate. So in many reserves, the federal government built enough houses for the entire reserve, only for them to have far more children than most Canadians, making these houses insufficient less than a generation later. The federal government in an era of austerity and belt-tightening is less inclined to invest even more.

(4) Location difficulties also keep some reserves very poor as there are few resources or neighboring communities to interact with. The question must arise whether aboriginals should stay in reserves or simply join Canadians in cities and towns, allowing them equal access to urban social programs, jobs and so forth. Remote reserves can hardly be as wealthy as cities, just as remote Canadian communities that are non-Aboriginal rarely achieve prosperity to any significant degree either. The chance they will leave the reserve system seems slight.

(4) Grits and Tories have ignored the issue for a long time, allowing it to balloon out of control.

(5) Aboriginals remain a rather weak electoral bloc, making their issues less than critical. They are asking for multi-billion dollar investments in healthcare, education and so forth, but cannot offer anywhere near the political power of the GTA, Montreal, or Vancouver. I don't mean to seem Machiavellian but this is a strong factor as well. It takes a lot of political capital to get a Kelowna Accord v2.0 through and if you're a Conservative government, this would seem supremely ill-timed and it would probably be hard to get caucus support behind it.

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AusKanada:

Good post. You have summarized the problems pretty well.

It is time to end the reserve system, and help these unfortunate Canadians to integrate with the rest of Canadian society.

As a taxpayer, I for one, am tired of watching as tens of millions are pumped into this reserve (not exaggerating) for a new school, or new houses, new vehicles, etc etc...only to watch as the people here wreck them because they have no understanding of responsibility or accountability.

These are things you learn when you have to work to earn everything that you have, and when that is removed, respect is gone...respect for yourself, for others, and for property of same.

None of that gets solved until we wake up and realize that government has created this problem, and the way out is to cut government funding entirely, and force people to move where the jobs are.

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