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"If You’ve Got A Business — You Didn’t Build That"


Shady

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And where do you think government got the money to pay for that infrastructure? From private businesses who either paid taxes or paid the wages of employees that were taxed.

Businesses are examples of 'collective action'. They represent of group of people pooling their resources in order to accomplish a goal. Everything that the government does depends on the output of businesses. The police, the medicare, the social safety net. Government did not build that - private businesses did because they provided the cash that made it possible.

That is the point and I am glad to see you agree. Infrastructure is an investment for a nation to make the environment more suitable for all to prosper. Sometime you must take a little from Business (even when they hate like when FDR, or Eisenhower kept taxes high to invest in projects that needed to built). Even though many large businesses were against this they did it and the country grew. The GOVERNMENT build the roads when the Businesses wouldn't and it was better for everyone.

We agree the taxes paid by the people of America (even when Business did not want them) have improved the country for all. That is all Obama is saying so we agree. Glad to see it.

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No I am arguing the whole paragraph is talking about infrastructure that helps business thrive. Infrastructure which the American people build. I am sorry that no matter how many times you read the paragraph you can't figure out what he is saying but your interpretation is clearly wrong sorry.

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out he's being misquoted, and his real statement was something like ... "you didn't do it ALL BY YOURSELF ... somebody else (ie taxpayers ... or God) did it too"

Certainly that would be sensible. The business/industry survival-of-the-fittest afficionados like to pretend they are totally responsible for their good fortune but the truth is they they owe God (or luck or fate or chance or genetic accident or engineering ...) respect for their brains, opportunities, health ... and they owe re respect to the country - taxpayers - who prioritize and provide the infrastructure, services and social supports that allow them to flourish.

I think that's the most obvious philosophical difference between the left and right ... KNOWING that "There but for the grace of God ... " ... humility ... respect ... and understanding the complexity never reduces to one person's power.

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Okayyyyy...so you also support abandoning "Bush tax cuts" for all marginal rates, not just high income earners? And a tax on welfare benefits? And health care taxes? And the general broadening of the tax base so everybody can "invest in America" ?

Tax rates can be debated and should be. We however shouldn't be having a debate about if the American people and their tax dollars have improved America. Which is what we are fighting about right now. Obama says infrastructure built by taxes improved America. I agree. It seems Shady and Tim think differently because they are the ones who have issue with the quote.

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I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out he's being misquoted, and his real statement was something like ... "you didn't do it ALL BY YOURSELF ... somebody else (ie taxpayers ... or God) did it too"....

One problem with this line of reasoning is the logical question about why others haven't been equally successful given access to all the "help" from taxpayers, government, and "God".

Reducing such assumed common denominators from the equation still leaves unmistakable and obvious attributes contributes by the individual....all by yourself.

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No it doesn't. Any 6 year old can read the whole quote and clearly see he is specifically referring to roads but also making the bigger point that American government and its people invested in their country to make it easier for everyone to so will. I am sorry you can't read, or that you don't understand how our language works but repeating a lie over and over again is not going to make it true Tim sorry.

He can read just fine. He's intentionally twisting Obama's words to suit his political biases.
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He can read just fine. He's intentionally twisting Obama's words to suit his political biases.

Here is the thing Tim would be the first to say "Mitt Romney doesn't love to fire people that quote was out of context" even though when that quote is in context it isn't much better unlike the Obama quote.

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Tax rates can be debated and should be. We however shouldn't be having a debate about if the American people and their tax dollars have improved America. Which is what we are fighting about right now. Obama says infrastructure built by taxes improved America. I agree. It seems Shady and Tim think differently because they are the ones who have issue with the quote.

Timg's point is that dollars supplied by businesses are improving the USA whether through taxes they pay or investments they make. When you have Obama prancing around the stage and demanding that businesses pay "their fair share" that's a slap in the face of business/rich people of the USA who not only pay the highest percentage of the total amount of tax dollars. The top 1% paying around 33% of tax revenue? Not only that, they make products and services that people want and freely spend their money on which vastly improve their lives. I say that the business class is already paying their fair share and people should learn to realize that. The bigger problem in the USA is the high percentage of people who don't pay any income taxes.

I don't know why Obama wants this war with the business class, Chavez is fighting this war and his country is poorer because of it as a result of the business class saying I'm taking my ball and leaving. That's what Obama doesn't get, if you play games with the business class, they'll take their business elsewhere, which one can argue is a good thing because we have countries that are far better off today than they were 30 yrs ago.

What democrats are portraying is that businesses didn't get anywhere without the govt. Businesses succeeded throughout American history when govt influence was far far less. One could turn it around and say the USA govt didn't get to where it's at today without private industry's tax dollars. Take away private industry and the USA govt couldnt do the things it can now.

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Timg's point is that dollars supplied by businesses are improving the USA whether through taxes they pay or investments they make. When you have Obama prancing around the stage and demanding that businesses pay "their fair share" that's a slap in the face of business/rich people of the USA who not only pay the highest percentage of the total amount of tax dollars. The top 1% paying around 33% of tax revenue? Not only that, they make products and services that people want and freely spend their money on which vastly improve their lives. I say that the business class is already paying their fair share and people should learn to realize that. The bigger problem in the USA is the high percentage of people who don't pay any income taxes.

I don't know why Obama wants this war with the business class, Chavez is fighting this war and his country is poorer because of it as a result of the business class saying I'm taking my ball and leaving. That's what Obama doesn't get, if you play games with the business class, they'll take their business elsewhere, which one can argue is a good thing because we have countries that are far better off today than they were 30 yrs ago.

What democrats are portraying is that businesses didn't get anywhere without the govt. Businesses succeeded throughout American history when govt influence was far far less. One could turn it around and say the USA govt didn't get to where it's at today without private industry's tax dollars. Take away private industry and the USA govt couldnt do the things it can now.

Tim's argument can be whatever he wants to be and so can yours however they are wrong. Obama never said business don't pay taxes or anything of that nature. What he said is the American government and its people build the roads that make for a better environment for all business. You can have pretend arguments over things Obama said in your imagination all you want it wont change what Obama did say or how true that point is.

Edited by punked
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Where is the money going to come from?

I don't know how about where it came from the last time the US went big in infrastructure and become the fastest growing and largest economic super power? From the people of the US and the future growth that is stimulate by well thought out large planning to make US business better and more competitive.

Edited by punked
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I find the grammar side of the this thread quite funny.

Reminds me of this

:
Nazi soldier: Hiding under the floor boards, I have finally found you."

Milk farmer: Wait. You are hiding under the floor boards or she?

All I have left to say is that me am a business man in Canada who pays quite a bit of tax and me would not have any problem with the statement if someone like Mulcair stated it.

Oh, and me pays higher taxes than if me was in the US.

Oops, sorry, not "me" that should be "I."

Me buy milk? I think not, I buy milk. :P

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Tim's argument can be whatever he wants to be and so can yours however they are wrong. Obama never said business don't pay taxes or anything of that nature. What he said is the American government and its people build the roads that make for a better environment for all business. You can have pretend arguments over things Obama said in your imagination all you want it wont change what Obama did say or how true that point is.

Except Obama didn't directly say that, in the video he is communicating that the management skills of the entrepreneur are meaningless because the govt and people built roads/ bought products etc. He is giving no credit to e person making the decisions on what product to sell, how to advertise it, how much to make, when to sell it, etc. That's the issue here and people take offense to that. A business is not like the field of dreams ( "if you build it they will come"). what obama's message says is that managements decisions don't matter and that the govt/people are responsible for the success/failure of a business. Customers are very important to success/failure, but so is management, something Obama refuses to give credit for and even criticizes (the rich have to pay their "fair share"

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Except Obama didn't directly say that, in the video he is communicating that the management skills of the entrepreneur are meaningless because the govt and people built roads/ bought products etc. He is giving no credit to e person making the decisions on what product to sell, how to advertise it, how much to make, when to sell it, etc. That's the issue here and people take offense to that. A business is not like the field of dreams ( "if you build it they will come"). what obama's message says is that managements decisions don't matter and that the govt/people are responsible for the success/failure of a business. Customers are very important to success/failure, but so is management, something Obama refuses to give credit for and even criticizes (the rich have to pay their "fair share"

Yeah it sure appears that way when you take 6 words in a huge speech out of context however here is the next quote. He clearly says that your success is your own but also part of that success is due to the country you live and in the investments it has made. That is not a crazy argument.

"The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

Again I am willing to have an argument with you over what Obama actually said. However I can't have an argument with you over what you want to pretend was said.

Edited by punked
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And where do you think government got the money to pay for that infrastructure? From private businesses who either paid taxes or paid the wages of employees that were taxed.

Businesses are examples of 'collective action'. They represent of group of people pooling their resources in order to accomplish a goal. Everything that the government does depends on the output of businesses. The police, the medicare, the social safety net. Government did not build that - private businesses did because they provided the cash that made it possible.

Sort of a circle, huh? The business couldn't exist without the police to protect them, the various regulations govt puts in place to make business an orderly affair, etc. And if you think only the owner of the business built up that business, well good luck to him without people working for him. The reason capital makes more capital is because it takes a portion of the output of labor. There would be no business without labor anymore than there would be one without the owner. It's called interdependence. What the low tax people need to realize is that the good life they enjoy is fostered by this interdependence, and they need to pay for in in proportion to how much they benefit. WTF is it with the greedhogs that they make unbelievable amounts of money and yet don't want to contribute to the system that's allowed them to make that money and to keep it?

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Sort of a circle, huh? The business couldn't exist without the police to protect them, the various regulations govt puts in place to make business an orderly affair, etc. And if you think only the owner of the business built up that business, well good luck to him without people working for him. The reason capital makes more capital is because it takes a portion of the output of labor. There would be no business without labor anymore than there would be one without the owner. It's called interdependence. What the low tax people need to realize is that the good life they enjoy is fostered by this interdependence, and they need to pay for in in proportion to how much they benefit. WTF is it with the greedhogs that they make unbelievable amounts of money and yet don't want to contribute to the system that's allowed them to make that money and to keep it?

And if the businesses weren't there, the police wouldn't have as good as financial resources, the workers wouldn't have jobs and are that much poorer. Interdependence works both ways and what the high tax people need to realize is the good life they enjoy is fostered by this interdependence. The businesses and management pay close to 1/3 of all tax revenue, yet make up 1% of the population! The "greed hogs contribute throuh a disproportionate amount of tax revenue and the goods and services they provide. Society is far better off because of those people providing their goods and services. For example I can get high speed Internet out in the middle of a field and watch YouTube. I pay the bill, and Rogers makes money. Rogers improved my life by making Internet accessible anywhere there is a cell phone tower. If Rogers paying lower taxes allows me to get improvement on my services from them are they not already contributing? If it wasn't for Rogers and apple, I wouldn't be able to get high speed Internet in rural Canada. Have those companies not contributed, yet you guys suggest they should pay even more? That's absurd!

Same goes for the oil industry, they provide jobs and essentially put the Canadian economy on it's back throuh this recession, and they should be taxed more? The rich and businesses are already pulling their weight, how about the elephant in the room of the large population who don't pay income tax.

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And if the businesses weren't there, the police wouldn't have as good as financial resources, the workers wouldn't have jobs and are that much poorer. Interdependence works both ways and what the high tax people need to realize is the good life they enjoy is fostered by this interdependence. The businesses and management pay close to 1/3 of all tax revenue, yet make up 1% of the population! The "greed hogs contribute throuh a disproportionate amount of tax revenue and the goods and services they provide. Society is far better off because of those people providing their goods and services. For example I can get high speed Internet out in the middle of a field and watch YouTube. I pay the bill, and Rogers makes money. Rogers improved my life by making Internet accessible anywhere there is a cell phone tower. If Rogers paying lower taxes allows me to get improvement on my services from them are they not already contributing? If it wasn't for Rogers and apple, I wouldn't be able to get high speed Internet in rural Canada. Have those companies not contributed, yet you guys suggest they should pay even more? That's absurd!

Same goes for the oil industry, they provide jobs and essentially put the Canadian economy on it's back throuh this recession, and they should be taxed more? The rich and businesses are already pulling their weight, how about the elephant in the room of the large population who don't pay income tax.

Just so everyone is clear Business in the US pays about 9% of the federal tax pie.

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What about them? I am glad there are roads so those people can get to work, and so are those people. Which might be why they choose to invest in roads so that business can function.

Nobody is saying we pay zero taxes, the problem is with how much power, influence, and how much things govt should do is the problem; in essence how much tax is necessary.

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Nobody is saying we pay zero taxes, the problem is with how much power, influence, and how much things govt should do is the problem; in essence how much tax is necessary.

I don't know. Lets look at the History of the US and go back to the same tax structure that existed when the US was the fastest growing economy in the world. How about that does that sound good enough for you? It is clear the last 12 years haven't been a success so lets move away from that into something different.

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They pay less now then at any point in History except for the run up (5-8 years) to the great depression. Is that the answer you were looking for?

Yet they account for 1/3 of the tax revenue and provide jobs, investments, product, and services which have done far more to improve the wealth and well being of our society than the government could possibly do. I'd say at contributing is it not?

They pay less according to the tax code, but before raegan simplified the tax code, there were more loopholes than there are now.

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I don't know. Lets look at the History of the US and go back to the same tax structure that existed when the US was the fastest growing economy in the world. How about that does that sound good enough for you? It is clear the last 12 years haven't been a success so lets move away from that into something different.

Would that be during the 1800s when the USA turned into a superpower. That time was very successful

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Yet they account for 1/3 of the tax revenue and provide jobs, investments, product, and services which have done far more to improve the wealth and well being of our society than the government could possibly do. I'd say at contributing is it not?

They pay less according to the tax code, but before raegan simplified the tax code, there were more loopholes than there are now.

Are they hurting for money? What's the beef? The US has a huge deficit - need to raise taxes to pay it off. That includes raising them on the middle class. There's no way you can cut enough to make up that defict. Not if you want a country left, and especially that expensive military your 1 percenters seem to feel they need.

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