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betsy

Abortion on Christian Grounds

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Betrothed does not mean being married. You're ignoring meanings to make a point that suits your world view.

In that time and place, 'betrothed' was as good as married and taken very seriously.

Romantic relationship following publicly announced, irrevocable commitment to marriage; allows couple to "fall in love" before marriage, but after commitment is made

Betrothal can only be terminated on the basis of infidelity; requires scriptural divorce

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/betrothal.html

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So the word of God changes with the people and the time? How convenient.

Only for Christians, though. For Muslims, no such flexibility is allowed.

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In that time and place, women were mere property. Yet men were under penalty of death in certain circumstances in that culture.

Yes, this is true. Was there a further point you were intending to make?

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Apparently not 'the word' on homosexuality though, according to Betsy.

How does she keep it straight, which old 'words' are still in effect? Must be very confusing for her to know when to "slay" her neighbor!

We're not going there again.

You're deliberately being obtused - the verses pertaining to homosexuality in the New testament was already given.

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Another Biblical verse that shows evidence against abortion.  I found it while discussing with Argus at another topic.  It's only fitting that it be added here.

 

Genesis 9

And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too,  I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.

Edited by betsy

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I think it's fairly obvious that you should not have an abortion.  Not if you believe all that Christian stuff. 

Other people, maybe they don't believe it. 

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45 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I think it's fairly obvious that you should not have an abortion.  Not if you believe all that Christian stuff. 

Other people, maybe they don't believe it. 

I think the OP is well-explained, and it's fairly obvious..... the message of this thread is not directed to non-Christians. 

 

"This thread is for them. For my brothers and sisters in Christ....not to condemn them, but to share with them the glasses that helped me see. "

 

Your comment is irrelevant.

 

Edited by betsy

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2 hours ago, betsy said:

Another Biblical verse that shows evidence against abortion.  I found it while discussing with Argus at another topic.  It's only fitting that it be added here.

 

Genesis 9

And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too,  I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.

That passage also shows that dogs can go to heaven.  

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55 minutes ago, betsy said:

I think the OP is well-explained, and it's fairly obvious..... the message of this thread is not directed to non-Christians. 

 

"This thread is for them. For my brothers and sisters in Christ....not to condemn them, but to share with them the glasses that helped me see. "

 

Your comment is irrelevant.

 

 

Maybe go post this crap on a Christian site if you want to preach to the converted.  This happens to be a site where anyone can comment on your post regardless of the rules you try and set out.  

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1 hour ago, betsy said:

I think the OP is well-explained, and it's fairly obvious..... the message of this thread is not directed to non-Christians. 

 

"This thread is for them. For my brothers and sisters in Christ....not to condemn them, but to share with them the glasses that helped me see. "

 

Your comment is irrelevant.

 

 

My apologies.  I didn't understand you to mean that you were fine with abortion if one's conscience is okay with it.

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I respect the opinions that some Christians hold on abortion.  Many- of course- have different  opinions in support of choice on abortion, they act on their opinions by having abortions, and I respect that too.  If only all Christians had the same tolerance for others, wouldn't the world be a much more Christian place?

 

Imagine too if all Christians tolerated gay people, allowed them to express their love for each other via marriage in a church.  Imagine what Jesus would think of that.

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1 hour ago, overthere said:

I respect the opinions that some Christians hold on abortion.  Many- of course- have different  opinions in support of choice on abortion, they act on their opinions by having abortions, and I respect that too.  If only all Christians had the same tolerance for others, wouldn't the world be a much more Christian place?

 

Imagine too if all Christians tolerated gay people, allowed them to express their love for each other via marriage in a church.  Imagine what Jesus would think of that.

I hear you, and all the wistful thinking about tolerance. 

If only all atheists and non-Christians would have the tolerance to understand that for Christians, certain stipulations by their God cannot be taken for granted.  They're non-negotiable.

If a Christian will bow down to worldly pressures, and do things that aren't righteous in the eyes of their God, and in the process they forsake their promised reward......

 

.......what's the point of being a Christian?  Why go through all the motion if it's for nothing, anyway?

 

 

 

Edited by betsy

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4 hours ago, bcsapper said:

 

My apologies.  I didn't understand you to mean that you were fine with abortion if one's conscience is okay with it.

Obviously, you misunderstood what you read.   Apology accepted.

 

 

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4 hours ago, The_Squid said:

 

Maybe go post this crap on a Christian site if you want to preach to the converted.  This happens to be a site where anyone can comment on your post regardless of the rules you try and set out.  

Nothing stops you from commenting as an atheist or a non-Christian.  It's irrelevant, though. 

Edited by betsy

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8 hours ago, betsy said:

Another Biblical verse that shows evidence against abortion. 

Genesis 9

And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too,  I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.

 

I'm not sure I follow how that relates to abortion. Genesis 9 is all about God's covenant with Noah and his family. Go back a couple of verses within the context and explain about eating animals. The verse you quoted is similar to the eye for an eye, or thou shall not kill. I fail to see how it is about abortion.

 

b.t.w. What translation are you using?

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7 hours ago, betsy said:

Nothing stops you from commenting as an atheist or a non-Christian.  It's irrelevant, though. 

It's not irrelevant if it's an atheist or a non-Christian having the abortion though, right?  Then it's the Christian view that's irrelevant.  And, I guess the Christian view is irrelevant when a Christian gets one too.  If they do, that is.

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15 hours ago, ?Impact said:

 

I'm not sure I follow how that relates to abortion. Genesis 9 is all about God's covenant with Noah and his family. Go back a couple of verses within the context and explain about eating animals. The verse you quoted is similar to the eye for an eye, or thou shall not kill. I fail to see how it is about abortion.

 

b.t.w. What translation are you using?

Yes you're right.  It's a covenant with Noah and his descendants.  Here, from the NIV version:

 

God’s Covenant With Noah

Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.

The word "BUT," is very significant.  There is a strict stipulation.

 

And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.

 

Verse 5 is generalized. 

Abortion is the taking of a human life - the life of the unborn human being.

 

The following verse is a support for capital punishments.

“Whoever sheds human blood,
    by humans shall their blood be shed;

 

And this is the main reason why human life is sacred.


for in the image of God
    has God made mankind.

 

That last verse ties up with other verses from various Books that show the unborn is considered a human life.

 

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.  In a loud voice she exclaimed..."As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy"            -Luke 1:41-44

 

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart..."
                                                                                                    - Jeremiah 1:5

 

For you (God) created my inmost being, You knit me together in my mother's womb...My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place.    -Psalm 139:13-15

 

  If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury (to mother or child), the offender must be fined....But if there is serious injury you are to take life for life........   -Exodus 21:22,23

 

Behold, children are a blessing from the Lord.  The fruit of the womb is a reward.  Like armies in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one's youth.    -Psalm 127:3

 

The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger." When her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. - Genesis 25:23-24

 

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb?  - Job 31:15

 

 

In the womb he took his brother by the heel, And in his maturity he contended with God. Hosea 12:3

 

That last verse shows that being unborn, is but a natural stage of a human's development.

 

One of the methods to determine that what we follow is the truth in the Bible (and not just something being taken out of context, or interpreted differently) is to cross-check with other verses for compatibility.

The Bible does not negate itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by betsy

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9 hours ago, bcsapper said:

It's not irrelevant if it's an atheist or a non-Christian having the abortion though, right?  Then it's the Christian view that's irrelevant.  And, I guess the Christian view is irrelevant when a Christian gets one too.  If they do, that is.

EH????  Care to review that statement?  Now, check out the title of this thread.

 

Abortion on Christian Grounds

Why is the Christian view irrelevant in a thread that's meant for Christians? :)

 

 Obviously, as an atheist or a non-Christian, you don't believe in the Bible, right?  So your views as atheists are irrelevant on this thread.

 

Atheistic view about abortion is irrelevant to this thread!  

 

This thread is for Christians - there are Christians who are being swayed into thinking that because the term abortion is not found in the Bible, nor does the Bible talks specifically about abortion, that therefore abortion is not a sin against God.  

As you can see, all evidences I give in this thread are all from the Bible! 

How are Biblical verses relevant to atheists and non-Christians?

Edited by betsy

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23 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I think it's fairly obvious that you should not have an abortion.  Not if you believe all that Christian stuff. 

 

That's right.  If you believe the Christian stuffs like the Bible......the answer is obvious.

Edited by betsy

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1 hour ago, betsy said:

 But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.

 

I think your other verses quoted are much more in line with the subject of the OP, and agree with you that the non-Christian POV is outside the scope of this OP. This is not about abortion, but the Christian view of abortion.

The above verse however I see interpreted as the practice of killing animals for food. Yes, it has more applicability to Jews and Muslims, but then it is an old Testament verse. Don't you see this as the practice of slicing the animals throat and draining the blood prior to eating? Did Christians follow this at one time, but eventually secular practices became more mainstream? I don't think Christians are against the practice, I don't know of any that would reject Kosher or Halal meat (at least on religious grounds, political grounds is a different issue). 

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2 hours ago, ?Impact said:

 

The above verse however I see interpreted as the practice of killing animals for food. Yes, it has more applicability to Jews and Muslims, but then it is an old Testament verse. Don't you see this as the practice of slicing the animals throat and draining the blood prior to eating? Did Christians follow this at one time, but eventually secular practices became more mainstream? I don't think Christians are against the practice, I don't know of any that would reject Kosher or Halal meat (at least on religious grounds, political grounds is a different issue). 

Genesis 9

Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.

 

The use of the term "But" signifies that there's a stipulation attached to the covenant.  That's my point.

 

Verse 5 no longer talks about eating.  It talks about killing.  Animals killing humans. 

 

5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal.

 

That term "And" signifies talking about lifeblood.....but a change of topic.  What comes to mind is that it's same as saying, "Speaking of lifeblood...."

Surely that line does not  instruct animals to drain our blood before eating us......

 

And this line below does not instruct that we drain the blood from humans before we can eat them. 

 

Verse 5 clearly no longer talks about eating.   It's about humans killing humans.

 

And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.

Edited by betsy

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Looks like there's an interest in Christian-related abortion issues.  Bumping this up..... I don't feel like wasting my time responding to the tired, same-old anti-Christian arguments about abortion.

Edited by betsy

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On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 11:39 AM, betsy said:

Looks like there's an interest in Christian-related abortion issues.  Bumping this up..... I don't feel like wasting my time responding to the tired, same-old anti-Christian arguments about abortion.

Betsy.

What does your bible say will happen to the vast majority of souls that are born?

Will most end in heaven or hell?

What is the best way for a soul to beat the horrible odds that have the vast majority of us ending in hell?

It would be killing the fetus. Right?

Regards

DL

 

 

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