Jump to content
Political Discussion Forums
bcsapper

2.5 billion dollars for a new bridge...

Recommended Posts

Who approved the cable-stayed design for a northern latitude bridge ? There was ample evidence of icing hazards on previous projects in North America and Europe. The bridge will have to be closed periodically or moved to San Diego.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who approved the cable-stayed design for a northern latitude bridge ? There was ample evidence of icing hazards on previous projects in North America and Europe. The bridge will have to be closed periodically or moved to San Diego.

We have at least two cable stayed bridges I can think of. But the cables are on the outside, not over traffic. Never been a problem with them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, there's another cable suspension bridge in the Lower Mainland that was built 25 years ago, and never caused a problem either.

I don't know what possessed them to cross the cables over the traffic lanes on this one.

How much is heat trace per metre?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What a joke, eh? I saw some reps from Treo (I think it was treo) on the news last night, and they were pointing fingers at the contractors. The report said last winter they shut down construction of the bridge because of ice chunks falling and endangering construction workers.

This morning on NW980 they had an Engineer from Toledo Ohio where they built a bridge that has the same issues, and he said there is nothing you can do except close it down when the ice falls. They have a monitoring system for that.

Apparently the Alex Fraser bridge( Highway 91) had up to 20 ice incidents also, although they weren't sure all 20 were ice related. And that's with not closing it down as they did the Port Mann. What a freaking joke. This is a known issue, and they went ahead with the design anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed. Initially when I heard the bridge closed I thought it's just typical Vancouver over-reaction to the snow but then I saw the pictuers of the windshields!

It's unacceptable. I wonder how they're gonna spin it from here on in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have at least two cable stayed bridges I can think of. But the cables are on the outside, not over traffic. Never been a problem with them.

OK...so who approved the cable stayed bridge design with the cables over the bridge deck ? Don't they have civil engineers and design reviews in BC ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK...so who approved the cable stayed bridge design with the cables over the bridge deck ? Don't they have civil engineers and design reviews in BC ?

Sure. The govt is blaming the contractor, saying it's their problem. But, the paper reported today that this sort of thing happens all over the world. Ohio for example, and Boston. They also have to close bridges during weather conditions. I must admit I've never heard of it happening here before now, but maybe all the hoopla was just because it was a brand new bridge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.... I must admit I've never heard of it happening here before now, but maybe all the hoopla was just because it was a brand new bridge.

Many bridges and roads are closed around the world due to bad weather or other unsafe conditions. I don't know what is so special about BC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many bridges and roads are closed around the world due to bad weather or other unsafe conditions. I don't know what is so special about BC.

It just snowed a bit.

If you can't build a bridge, in Canada, that can handle a morning's snowfall, you should give your P.Eng back and go be a greeter at Walmart.

Edited by bcsapper

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not aware of us ever closing a bridge because of "snow bombs" before. We don't handle snow well in the Lower Mainland, but this was ridiculous Sorta like the Skytrain having to stop running because of a bit of ice on the tracks.

This bridge was built by a PPP. I sure hope the private partner who built the bridge is the one who takes the loss in tolls when it has to be closed because of snow. But knowing the way these things are done, the govt will be on the hook for any shortfalls. All PPP does is let the govt keep some debt off the books, while in the end paying more than if they had just paid for the thing up front in the first place. Nothing like capitalist dogmatism to cost more money.

Edited by Canuckistani

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you can't build a bridge, in Canada, that can handle a morning's snowfall, you should give your P.Eng back and go be a greeter at Walmart.

I would think it unfair to blame just the P.Eng's at this point. Remember , they didnt design it, nor build it,

Lots of people overlooked a crucial element .

But this happens a lot more than anyone knows. Architects and the like try to keep mistakes quiet,

There is a highrise built in Mamhattan in the 70's that designers forgot to check the winds and windloads against. Turns out it was built and it was an architect student who thought something was off. Because of a heritage building (IIRC) they moved the footings so that they were in the middle of each wall as opposed to the corners.

The Red Cross, City Emergency dept and others planned a disaster schedule/relief programme....but no one was allowed to tell the public. Had it fallen , it would have been worse than 9-11 in terms of deaths

It was kept quite for decades.

Edited by guyser

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would think it unfair to blame just the P.Eng's at this point. Remember , they didnt design it, nor build it,

I would have thought one would have to be an engineer to design or build a suspension bridge. If I've unfairly maligned that worthy group, I apologise.

Edited by bcsapper

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have thought one would have to be an engineer to design or build a suspension bridge. If I've unfairly maligned that worthy group, I apologise.

A P. ENg doesnt do either.

They may be consulted and there are crossovers in play but the architect is the one who signs off.

The engineer signs the drafts when they ahve been checked.

Everyone missed on this one.

It should have been caught by the architect when designing. The P. Eng should have caught it when he looked the design over. The contractor should have seen the problem when he built it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It should have been caught by the architect when designing. The P. Eng should have caught it when he looked the design over. The contractor should have seen the problem when he built it.

Incredible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I don't think that everybody missed it, it's a very well known problem. It's also a problem that other bridges have experienced, so it just seems too crazy that it was missed. Like I mentioned earlier, the construction workers LAST winter were sent home due to ice falling, which was a big red flag that the issue was going to happen. So the failure is on 2 fronts. First, deciding to go with a design that is problematic and second, not adapting to the slap in the face that was ice falling around the workers last winter. At that point they should have added heat trace or whatever.

But instead, we will probably be left with closures for the next 4+ years as the two sides hunker down and lawyer up. Just glad no one was killed this time. And this might be the final nail in the coffin for Christy Clark's hopes.

PS the thought about it being no big deal that roads are closed at winter might have had some merit, except for the following. The old bridge which this one replaced was never closed due to weather. Also, this freeway is the only multi lane freeway eastbound out of Vancouver to the rest of Canada. It's the Trans Canada highway, and it's bad enough that it now has a toll on it, now it'll be closed whenever ice falling becomes an issue.

Edited by sharkman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But instead, we will probably be left with closures for the next 4+ years as the two sides hunker down and lawyer up. Just glad no one was killed this time.

Given what this bridge is, I'm guessing the actual physical problem will be fixed in fairly short order (this winter). However, there may indeed be years of "lawyering" to determine who ends up with the final bill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PS the thought about it being no big deal that roads are closed at winter might have had some merit, except for the following. The old bridge which this one replaced was never closed due to weather.

I'm betting that the old bridge was closed from time to time for various incidents related to weather. I googled just such a weather incident in 2011 which caused a BC Hydro tower to collapse.

Port Mann bridge, Lougheed Highway closed after hydro tower collapses – Vancouver Sun

Posted on
by

6.jpg

CBC.ca Port Mann bridge, Lougheed Highway closed after hydro tower collapses Vancouver Sun METRO VANCOUVER – Highway 1 remains closed in both directions at the Cape Horn interchange after last night’s collapse of a BC Hydro tower. The Lougheed Highway is also closed from Brunette Avenue to ..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Derek L

I'm betting that the old bridge was closed from time to time for various incidents related to weather. I googled just such a weather incident in 2011 which caused a BC Hydro tower to collapse.

Port Mann bridge, Lougheed Highway closed after hydro tower collapses – Vancouver Sun

Posted on
by

6.jpg

CBC.ca Port Mann bridge, Lougheed Highway closed after hydro tower collapses Vancouver Sun METRO VANCOUVER – Highway 1 remains closed in both directions at the Cape Horn interchange after last night’s collapse of a BC Hydro tower. The Lougheed Highway is also closed from Brunette Avenue to ..

I can see the bridge from my dinning room.........The incident you cite was the result of the construction of the new bridge.....The whole upgrade, also including new overpasses in the lower mainland, coupled with increased numbers of lanes, has been nothing but a dog and pony show............Originally they talked of keeping the old bridge and building a new one beside it………..I’m glad I telecommute to work, and the wife is taking sky train (also a joke) instead of driving due to the increase in traffic on other routes into the city to avoid the toll bridge………We live off the Lougheed Hwy, on the “right side of the bridge” to Vancouver, but still, since it opening there has been a noticeable increase on other routes……

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...