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Hudson Jones

Another day, another international embarrassment for Canada

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Baird breaks 46 years of Canadian and Western policy and decides to meet Israeli officials in the, internationally recognized, occupied East Jerusalem, further embarrassing Canada.

Is Baird's action, the actions of a real diplomat?

How far is this government willing to go in ruining Canada's image as a supporter of international law and human rights?

When Foreign Minister John Baird crossed the Green Line this week to meet with Israeli Justice Minister Tzipi Livni in the mostly Arab sector of east Jerusalem, he broke with 46 years of Canadian government and Western policy. But was it by accident or design?

Under Canadian policy over East Jerusalem, the unilateral annexation by Israel is not recognized.

“Since 1967, when Israel occupied the eastern parts of the city, it’s been our policy that Canadian officials not meet with Israeli officials in east Jerusalem,” said Michael Bell, a former Canadian ambassador to Israel and the Palestinian territories, as well as to Egypt and Jordan.

“Our policy was part of a Western consensus,” he said. “The idea behind it was that such meetings would amount to de facto recognition of Israel’s claim to sovereignty over the area.”

So why is the Harper government so eager to please the right wing, Zionist government of Israel?

“My Prime Minister has praised Prime Minister [stephen] Harper and Foreign Minister [John] Baird on numerous occasions.”

Everybody loves a poodle.

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Edited by Hudson Jones

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This is quite the punch after touring all the arab states, who may view Jerusalem as a holy city, which they don't want the Jewish state to control.

None the less I think most people view Jerusalem as being part of Israel, aside form the antizionists. Harper government is prozionist, what is so surprising about this?

I bet Baird would just love to cut funding to Palestine. They were one of 7 countries that voted against Palestinian statehood. Their loyalties are obvious.

The New ME Order is all about the Palestinians and Arab states being stripped of all the land that was taken from them forever Aside from a small portion of the west bank and Gaza, all the rest Israel will pocket contrary to the division of lands between the Arabs and jews in agreements that established the state of Israel in transjordan. That all the posturing is about. We will keep the land. Its all about keeping them on a tight least and in an inferior position.

Lets get real though USA and Canada back Israel, not the Arab world, governmentally popular support is another issue. Jews arn't about converting everyone. They will settle on treating you on a relatively equal basis and distancing themselves while getting what they can from you, if you try to control them then perhaps there is grounds for that machivellian Jewish plot to control everyone. The muslims on the otherhand insist on converting you by force. Christians historically were much the same, but they will settle for converting you by controlling your civil life. More or less. That is partially why the US and Canada favour Israel, that and a resurgence of the United Arab States or pan-islamic state would be more powerful than USA, or perhaps even Europe due to their oil reserves, and population, this was put to bed in the 60's and 70's.

Canada under the Harper government is pro zionist, today was icing, not an embarrassment for the Harper government. Has there been any actual fallout, other than some Palestinians biting the hand that feeds them?

Edited by shortlived

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Western countries tend to support other Western countries. Somehow you find that an embarrassment? Are you embarrassed by the lack of tolerance for gays in the Muslim world.

Just wondering.

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Western countries tend to support other Western countries. Somehow you find that an embarrassment? Are you embarrassed by the lack of tolerance for gays in the Muslim world.

Just wondering.

Maybe we should clarify one thing here. Israel is not a western country, it is a middle east country with a western style democracy/economy.

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Guest American Woman

Maybe we should clarify one thing here. Israel is not a western country, it is a middle east country with a western style democracy/economy.

The "western world" generally refers to "western culture" in this day and age. At best, it refers to different countries depending on the context. I think it's rather clear what jbg meant here.

Are you embarrassed by the lack of tolerance for gays in the Muslim world.

Just wondering.

Excellent question. I look forward to the answer.

In regards to this being an international embarrassment for "Canada," I didn't realize that Hudson spoke for "Canada."

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Hudson can point out what he feels is an embarrassment to this country. About a decade ago we had a very good international reputation on numerous fronts, but that status has been eroded significantly.

Why do conservatives love Israel? Why is it always 100% support regardless of their actions?

Edited by Mighty AC

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Guest American Woman

Hudson can point out what he feels is an embarrassment to this country. About a decade ago we had a very good international reputation on numerous fronts, but that status has been eroded significantly.

Sure he can. But to claim it is in the title, without anything else, as if Canada is embarrassing itself every day, is nothing more than HIS opinion - not the opinion of "Canada" as the title suggests.

Why do conservatives love Israel? Why is it always 100% support regardless of their actions?

That's a ludicrous claim on so many levels. #1, I'm not a Conservative, and I "love" (ie: support) Israel. Which brings me to #2, which is "supportive of Israel" doesn't translate to supporting all of their actions.

For the record, I "love" Canada, too, "regardless of its actions." :)

Edited by American Woman

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Sure he can. But to claim it is in the title, without anything else, as if Canada is embarrassing itself every day, is nothing more than HIS opinion - not the opinion of "Canada" as the title suggests.

Everyone has opinions, even Americans on matters that are Canadian, while Canadians get pushed back when giving opinions on things American.

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Wonder how far Harper would go to protect Israel? They took off a report about a Canadian military personnel being killed by Israel back in 2006. http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/12/26/canadian-soldier-killed-by-israeli-forces_n_2365103.html

Ever hear of "friendly fire?"

Western countries tend to support other Western countries. Somehow you find that an embarrassment? Are you embarrassed by the lack of tolerance for gays in the Muslim world.

Just wondering.

Excellent question. I look forward to the answer.
I've asked that question in numerous fora. To quote Bob Dylan "the answer...is blowin' in the wind." In other words, you'll chase for and never get the answer.

Maybe we should clarify one thing here. Israel is not a western country, it is a middle east country with a western style democracy/economy.

The "western world" generally refers to "western culture" in this day and age. At best, it refers to different countries depending on the context. I think it's rather clear what jbg meant here.
Thanks for clarifying my point. Sometimes people can't understand the difference between a cultural and geographical map. Some probably consider Australia and New Zealand to be part of the non-Western world.

In regards to this being an international embarrassment for "Canada," I didn't realize that Hudson spoke for "Canada."

Thank G-d for that. Edited by jbg

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Ever hear of "friendly fire?"I've asked that question in numerous fora. To quote Bob Dylan "the answer...is blowin' in the wind." In other words, you'll chase for and never get the answer.

Well that's pretty silly, of course it's embarrassing. There are lots of reasons for being ashamed of our species and gay-bashing is right up there with the worst of worst no matter who does it, like backing dictators.

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Well that's pretty silly, of course it's embarrassing. There are lots of reasons for being ashamed of our species and gay-bashing is right up there with the worst of worst no matter who does it, like backing dictators.

My point is that Israel beats the Muslim world on this issue, hands down, in terms of being progressive.

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Or the palestines are a bunch of idiots for letting thier arab friends use them as pawns. Israel would love peace, but does hama, hezbolla, iran, egypt and so on. Why does'nt palestine take what they have right now and start building a country (like Israel) instead of wallowing in thier own shit whinning about it. Israel did not, they built a country out of the same rock. They should have taken that last deal arafat squandered. it would have been a great start and they would be better off today for it. And the hudsons of the world better look at the other side of the story instead of just what his professor has to say.

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Or the palestines are a bunch of idiots for letting thier arab friends use them as pawns.

The "Palestinians" are Arabs. That's it.

Most of the Arab countries, with the partial exception of Egypt (and maybe Yemen), have no national identity, no real history, no cohesion. Zero, zip, nada.

Israel would love peace, but does hama, hezbolla, iran, egypt and so on.

Peace was an alien concept to them starting at the time of the Old Testament. Why should now be any different? Because some talking head at the U.N. or the U.S. State Department is looking at an excuse for Israel to render itself defenseless?

Why does'nt palestine take what they have right now and start building a country (like Israel) instead of wallowing in thier own shit whinning about it. Israel did not, they built a country out of the same rock. They should have taken that last deal arafat squandered. it would have been a great start and they would be better off today for it. And the hudsons of the world better look at the other side of the story instead of just what his professor has to say.

See above. They have no accomplishments to speak of and don't want peace under any conditions. Edited by jbg

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I was more "embarrassed" whenn Canada stood for nothing....the so-called "balanced and nuanced" approach - never favouring the free, democaratic Israel over the despotic regimes of the other Middle East parties. Israel - where Arabs have more real freedom than in their native countries. And where did all this wooly-headed thinking get us in the last 50 years? Absolutely nowhere. So I'm proud to have Canada clearly stand behind Israel while calling for a real, two state soltion. We don't have to agree with everything that Israel does - like calling their coninued settlement building "unhelpful".....but we should anr ARE, stading up for freedom and democracy. Give the power to the people.

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My point is that Israel beats the Muslim world on this issue, hands down, in terms of being progressive.

I thought your point was that no one who criticizes Israel ever criticizes Muslims.

That said...

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Firstly, isn't the controversy surrounding this situation the fact that some fear the location of the meeting could be construed as defacto acceptance of Israel's claim to that territory?

And it often appears to me that Israel is as inflexible on its demands for peace terms as any other player in the region. Israel is imperialistic.

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Are you embarrassed by the lack of tolerance for gays in the Muslim world.

Just wondering.

Absolutely, I am. It's sad that Islam instills this lack of tolerance. Perhaps, just maybe, that will change one day.

Excellent question. I look forward to the answer.

See above. Are the two of you embarrassed by the lack of tolerance given to gays by the Christian Right (and more) in your country? I would be.

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Guest American Woman

Are the two of you embarrassed by the lack of tolerance given to gays by the Christian Right (and more) in your country? I would be.

I'm not starting any threads, much less thread after thread, selectively complaining about being embarrassed by one side/one country, criticizing & condemning only one, while supporting and giving a complete pass to the other in complete and utter silence regarding their human rights records - so your question to me is not called for in the same capacity as it was to Hudson. IOW, there's a reason he's being asked the question, which I've just explained, so I'd be interested in your reason for asking me.

Having said that, regarding whether or not I'm embarrassed by the Christian Right - I have no reason to be "embarrassed" by them. I don't have anything to do with them and am not associated with them in any way. I have always stood up for gay rights and have said quite clearly that the deciding factor for me in presidential elections is equal rights. I have posted quotes from Republicans who are standing up for equal marriage rights for gays, giving them credit, hoping that others will follow their lead. I have also signed many petitions supporting equal rights -both on the state and federal level.

Furthermore, I am no more disgusted by the Christian Right's anti-gay stance than I am any others'.

I hope that answers your question - and I hope you shed some light on mine.

Edited by American Woman

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Trying to divert the topic by asking about the Christian Right and gay rights is a pretty inane non-sequitur. Then again, so was trying to divert the topic by asking about the Muslim world and gay rights.

Yes, the Muslim world is not progressive and is full of a lot of hateful idiots. I think we can all agree to that. I don't think that means that Israel is always right.

-k

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Absolutely, I am. It's sad that Islam instills this lack of tolerance. Perhaps, just maybe, that will change one day.

See above. Are the two of you embarrassed by the lack of tolerance given to gays by the Christian Right (and more) in your country? I would be.

Not in our life time, they are about 500 years behind.

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Trying to divert the topic by asking about the Christian Right and gay rights is a pretty inane non-sequitur. Then again, so was trying to divert the topic by asking about the Muslim world and gay rights.

Yes, the Muslim world is not progressive and is full of a lot of hateful idiots. I think we can all agree to that. I don't think that means that Israel is always right.

-k

No they are not always right, but when surrounded by countries that want you exterminated, you do the best you can without turning into savages like their neighbours.

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Guest American Woman

Trying to divert the topic by asking about the Christian Right and gay rights is a pretty inane non-sequitur. Then again, so was trying to divert the topic by asking about the Muslim world and gay rights.

Yes, the Muslim world is not progressive and is full of a lot of hateful idiots. I think we can all agree to that. I don't think that means that Israel is always right.

The topic, according to the thread title, is about Canada's "embarrassment." The title doesn't even specify about what - another day, another international embarrassment for Canada. That's the topic, according to the title. As such, I think the question was hardly a diversion - I think it was right on. Furthermore, I don't recall anyone ever saying "Israel is always right."

Edited by American Woman

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