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PMO paid for Duffy's fraud

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It is a concern for taxpayer money. Many government resources including legal council and money are being spent to investigate this fraud. So even if you say that the money used to cover Duffy's expense 'miscalculation' came from the CPC's own pockets (aka donations from individuals), the RCPM, investigators and lawyers are being paid for by the likes of you and me. If Duffy and Wallen lose this case, then they should be held accountable and pay to cover the layers, RCMP ect ect. Treat them hostile and then you may see others in government shape up.

Granted the initial concern was about fraudulent misspending.

But now it's about bribery, influence peddling and cover up for political gain, by the PMO.

Bribing a senator and intimidating other senators into whitewashing a report ... those are criminal matters arising from the PMO and warrant the expense of criminal investigation imo.

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Granted the initial concern was about fraudulent misspending.

But now it's about bribery, influence peddling and cover up for political gain, by the PMO.

Bribing a senator and intimidating other senators into whitewashing a report ... those are criminal matters arising from the PMO and warrant the expense of criminal investigation imo.

You'll get no argument from Conservatives. Let the RCMP do a thorough investigation, lay charges where appropriate, and let the cards fall where they may. Everything between now and then is political theatrics. The two main players are gone - one resigned and one "suspended". "Interim" justice has been handed out. Let the RCMP do their job.

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You'll get no argument from Conservatives.

oh really! There have now been 3 separate attempts to have the Deloitte auditor and Conservative Senator Gerstein provide testimony at a Senate committee level. 3 attempts, with 2 attempts thwarted by the Conservative committee majority voting against providing testimony, or in the latest thwart, Conservative Senate Speaker Noel Kinsella rejected Liberal Senate leader James Cowan's argument that the alleged interference constituted a breach of senators' privileges. Ya ya, Simple... "no argument from Conservatives"!

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You'll get no argument from Conservatives. Let the RCMP do a thorough investigation, lay charges where appropriate, and let the cards fall where they may. Everything between now and then is political theatrics. The two main players are gone - one resigned and one "suspended". "Interim" justice has been handed out. Let the RCMP do their job.

Even if the "cards" fall on Harper?

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/11/28/trouble-all-the-time-how-scandal-has-become-ingrained-in-our-political-way-of-life/

As high-level Conservatives connived last winter over how to make Duffys expense embarrassments go away, Wright emailed Harpers top communications advisers, telling them,

"The PM knows, in broad terms only, that I personally assisted Duffy when I was getting him to agree to repay the expenses."

.

Edited by jacee

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oh really! There have now been 3 separate attempts to have the Deloitte auditor and Conservative Senator Gerstein provide testimony at a Senate committee level. 3 attempts, with 2 attempts thwarted by the Conservative committee majority voting against providing testimony, or in the latest thwart, Conservative Senate Speaker Noel Kinsella rejected Liberal Senate leader James Cowan's argument that the alleged interference constituted a breach of senators' privileges. Ya ya, Simple... "no argument from Conservatives"!

There is investigating and then there is witch hunting.

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Even if the "cards" fall on Harper?

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/11/28/trouble-all-the-time-how-scandal-has-become-ingrained-in-our-political-way-of-life/

As high-level Conservatives connived last winter over how to make Duffys expense embarrassments go away, Wright emailed Harpers top communications advisers, telling them,

"The PM knows, in broad terms only, that I personally assisted Duffy when I was getting him to agree to repay the expenses."

.

Especially if the cards fall on Harper. He has answered very specifically about what he knew. If that proves not to be true then it's bad enough that he should resign. I personally believe the guy - Nigel Wright was the second most powerful man on the team and he certainly had the capability of keeping his personal "gift" quiet until the crap hit the fan. Although the issue seems like a huge one now, it was small potatoes compared to all of the national/global issues that Harper was dealing with at the time - and continues to deal with evey day. That's why he has someone like Wright - to keep the small stuff off his mind. So I'd actually be flabbergasted if he did talk to Harper about how he was going to take care of it.

Edited by Keepitsimple

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I wonder if the RCMP have checked Wrights bank account to see if there was a $90,000 deposit made to his account BEFORE he wrote the cheque, or maybe after. What Wright has said about Duffy in the e-mails doesn't seem possible that he would want to pay the money, the Conservative Party had more reason for this to go away.

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Especially if the cards fall on Harper. He has answered very specifically about what he knew. If that proves not to be true then it's bad enough that he should resign. I personally believe the guy - Nigel Wright was the second most powerful man on the team and he certainly had the capability of keeping his personal "gift" quiet until the crap hit the fan. Although the issue seems like a huge one now, it was small potatoes compared to all of the national/global issues that Harper was dealing with at the time - and continues to deal with evey day. That's why he has someone like Wright - to keep the small stuff off his mind. So I'd actually be flabbergasted if he did talk to Harper about how he was going to take care of it.

How could you possibly say he answered specifically when his answer is either a non answer or it changes from week to week.? Bribing a sitting senator is not small stuff. I think Harper is damaged beyond repair, and mostly because he chose arrogance and smoke and mirrors rather than an honest fess up and let's move on. It seems he is no brighter than Rob Ford once the crap hits the fan.

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Duffy, Wallin, Brazeau, Harb ... should be shaking in their boots:

Ex-UK minister jailed for fudging expenses; Denis MacShane sentenced to 6 months

His guilty plea followed more than four years of scrutiny into his use of Commons allowances.

During this time the former Labour MP continued to receive a parliamentary salary and expenses - and was re-elected as an MP - despite the Commons authorities and the police being aware that he had admitted the fraud.

... for faking $21,000 in expenses.

Edited by jacee

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/senate-reform-or-abolition-unlikely-experts-say-despite-scandal

Ironically, the expenses scandal may also end up returning senators to their intended role as practitioners of independent, sober second thought. Some Conservative senators are pushing back against undue partisanship after discovering, courtesy of RCMP documents filed in court, the degree to which the Prime Minister's Office attempted to control the Senate, including interfering in an audit of Duffy's expenses and whitewashing a Senate committee report on Duffy.

"There are young people in the PMO who thought that when the PM becomes PM, he becomes ... the big boss of the House of Commons and the big boss of the Senate," groused Conservative Sen. Pierre-Claude Nolin after a recent caucus meeting."I think they have discovered that is not how things worked."Contact between the Senate leadership and the PMO has slowed down, Nolin said, "if not (come to) a full stop."

If the arrogance of Senators in claiming undue expenses, and the powers of the PMO to control and corrupt the Senate are curtailed, that's progress.

The spectre of Harper senate appointees ending up in jail should keep the rest of them in line for a while.

The Duff, Wright and Wallin behind bars ... they must be ... should be ... terrified. And you can bet they won't be keeping quiet to protect the PM for very long.

.

.

Edited by jacee

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The Duff, Wright and Wallin behind bars ... they must be ... should be ... terrified. And you can bet they won't be keeping quiet to protect the PM for very long.

.

.

I agree with some of what you said but really, at the end of the day - I think you'll find that Mac Harb (Liberal) is the only one who will join Raymond Lavigne (Liberal) in doing jail time. Harb's offenses, from what we know, are premeditated, planned frauds. Selling 99.99% of his "home" to the Brunei Ambassadress - and then continuing to claim it for 3 years. And that's putting aside the fact he never lived there at all for most of whatever ownership he maintained.

As egregious as Wallin's and Duffy's expense interpretations may be - they are subject to interpretation and most likely will not fall into the same category as the pre-meditated, systematic fraud perpetrated by Harb.

Edited by Keepitsimple

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He said he did not know, end of story.There is nothing to see here.

Edited by PIK

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As egregious as Wallin's and Duffy's expense interpretations may be - they are subject to interpretation and most likely will not fall into the same category as the pre-meditated, systematic fraud perpetrated by Harb.

A UK MP is doing 6 months in jail for fraudulently claiming only $21,000 in expenses. ( See link above.)

Duffy - $90,000 fraud + soliciting/accepting a bribe.

Wallin - $138,000 fraud.

Harb & Brazeau likewise guilty.

If they all don't go to jail then we'll know that our system is entirely corrupted and the RCMP are colluding in covering up these crimes.

.

Edited by jacee

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A UK MP is doing 6 months in jail for fraudulently claiming only $21,000 in expenses. ( See link above.)

Duffy - $90,000 fraud + soliciting/accepting a bribe.

Wallin - $138,000 fraud.

Harb & Brazeau likewise guilty.

If they all don't go to jail then we'll know that our system is entirely corrupted and the RCMP are colluding in covering up these crimes.

.

No......you'll know that the rules were far too open to interpretation and the Senators in question stretched their intent - but that's different from outright fraud - which is a violation of clear rules with intent. We're hearing about this kind of rule-stretching in government more and more - especially in Ontario - Pan-Am expenses, Ornge fiasco, etc. You can bet that if a light simlar to the Senate debacle was shone on more of these Ontario positions, the Senate would look like Boy Scouts. That said, I meant to disparage Duffy a lot more than Wallin and Brazeau because the guy has proven to be a slimy, slppery character - I'm just not sure we can nail him with fraud.

What a sad overall statement for government in general - but if the Senate scandal creates a domino effect through all levels of government, it will prove to be a very good thing. You can bet that Harper is really ticked off - I think you'll find some pretty hard, fast, and clear rules put in place with harsh penalties to go with them.

Edited by Keepitsimple

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I agree with some of what you said but really, at the end of the day - I think you'll find that Mac Harb (Liberal) is the only one who will join Raymond Lavigne (Liberal) in doing jail time. Harb's offenses, from what we know, are premeditated, planned frauds. Selling 99.99% of his "home" to the Brunei Ambassadress - and then continuing to claim it for 3 years. And that's putting aside the fact he never lived there at all for most of whatever ownership he maintained.

As egregious as Wallin's and Duffy's expense interpretations may be - they are subject to interpretation and most likely will not fall into the same category as the pre-meditated, systematic fraud perpetrated by Harb.

And I think you'll find that the majority of us here think that this post is so partisan that it is laughable. The lot of them should do jail time along with a few more including our fibbing PM.

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No......you'll know that the rules were far too open to interpretation and the Senators in question stretched their intent - but that's different from outright fraud - which is a violation of clear rules with intent.

True. No doubt the rules for residency/housing expenses will be clarified through this process. However, Duffy & Wallin's expenses claimed for personal or CPC purposes may be more clearly fraudulent.

That said, I meant to disparage Duffy a lot more than Wallin and Brazeau because the guy has proven to be a slimy, slppery character - I'm just not sure we can nail him with fraud.

He can be nailed with soliciting and accepting a bribe.

What a sad overall statement for government in general - but if the Senate scandal creates a domino effect through all levels of government, it will prove to be a very good thing.

Agreed.

You can bet that Harper is really ticked off - I think you'll find some pretty hard, fast, and clear rules put in place with harsh penalties to go with them.

I'm sure he's mad it's become a public scandal, but it seems to me that some of the uncertainty about the rules comes from the fact that housing and Party expenses were initially approved by Harper. Edited by jacee

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True. No doubt the rules for residency/housing expenses will be clarified through this process. However, Duffy & Wallin's expenses claimed for personal or CPC purposes may be more clearly fraudulent.

He can be nailed with soliciting and accepting a bribe.

Agreed.

I'm sure he's mad it's become a public scandal, but it seems to me that some of the uncertainty about the rules comes from the fact that housing and Party expenses were initially approved by Harper.

Of course. Just follow back through the time line on this and you will hear Harper talking out of more sides of his mouth than I thought was humanly possible. I support the senators. oops, no I dont support the senators. I supported Nigel.oops no I fired Nigel. Only Nigel knew about the check. Oops, well a few people knew about the check. etc., etc.

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Senate scandal wins race:

Ongoing story that could shape Canada's political future beats Ford antics

Journalists love to say it is not the crime, but rather the coverup, that becomes a politician's undoing.

...

Simply put, this is a story of a governing party using its power and influence to sweep away details of expense transgressions by members of its Senate caucus. And then, having been caught in that first coverup, further attempting to manipulate reviews and investigations to contain the matter.

The rest of the world might be howling at Ford's antics, but Canadians are more concerned about the PMO coverup of the Senate expense scandal.

This is going to haunt Harper.

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Senate scandal wins race:

Ongoing story that could shape Canada's political future beats Ford antics

Journalists love to say it is not the crime, but rather the coverup, that becomes a politician's undoing.

...

Simply put, this is a story of a governing party using its power and influence to sweep away details of expense transgressions by members of its Senate caucus. And then, having been caught in that first coverup, further attempting to manipulate reviews and investigations to contain the matter.

The rest of the world might be howling at Ford's antics, but Canadians are more concerned about the PMO coverup of the Senate expense scandal.

This is going to haunt Harper.

I think you are right. Ford has of course become a bit of a laughing stock ,but his council, unlike Harper's folks don't have to vote along party lines and of course they have actually voted to basically gut Ford of his powers. They can't/won't do that with Harper. We have to do that in 2015. Of course as we all know, police are investigating in both scenarios. My guess is that Harper has more to worry about. Ford has already admitted he smokes crack but I don't think there is much legal repercussin there. Having possibly been involved in bribing a sitting senator, now that's different.

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If you think the senate thingy is enough to bring down harper, keep on dreaming.Once the election gets here and the 1st debate, it is over for the young trudeau.

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You may be dreaming if you think this is going away any time soon.

rex-murphy-for-harpers-conservatives-2013-was-all-about-the-senate-scandal

After all, drain virtue from the Conservative agenda, and what is left? The moral strain of conservatism in matters of law, culture, and public stewardship is for many conservatives the reason they became conservatives in the first place.

The appeal and sway of Mr. Harpers party is receding, aggravated by a retreat-to-the-base mentality when the base itself is receding. Thats the box Mr. Harper and his team find themselves in at the end of 2013.

Edited by jacee

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Granted the initial concern was about fraudulent misspending.

But now it's about bribery, influence peddling and cover up for political gain, by the PMO.

Bribing a senator and intimidating other senators into whitewashing a report ... those are criminal matters arising from the PMO and warrant the expense of criminal investigation imo.

Worth it only if we see perp walks and jail time. If the PMO was involved I want to see action. Without the action, the rulings and charges and investigation wont mean anything. If we don't see people going to jail over this, then the money spent to investigate the crime is wasted. That's another thing the gov seems to be good at. Wasting money.

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Of course. Just follow back through the time line on this and you will hear Harper talking out of more sides of his mouth than I thought was humanly possible. I support the senators. oops, no I dont support the senators. I supported Nigel.oops no I fired Nigel. Only Nigel knew about the check. Oops, well a few people knew about the check. etc., etc.

That is the difference between harper and the liberals, he will support you untill you screw up and you are gone, where the liberals would just do nothing and keep the guy.

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IF Harper does lose some voters, I think it will be the boomers, because, as people aged they get smarter and their moral values are higher in most people and if they think Harper is not telling the truth, then they won't support him and he has to carry Ontario. I hope in the new year, the three or at least, two, Wallin and Brazeau gets interviewed by someone like W5, to clarify their side.

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