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August1991

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So you mean that people believe in Islam because of they believe in Islam.

why would someone be afraid of something he/she dont believe in ?

Don't you think someone who may have been indoctrinated into a religion to believe all non-believers are going to hell might have some difficulty with it decades later when they stop believing?

That's why indoctrination at a young age is so insidious.

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Don't you think someone who may have been indoctrinated into a religion to believe all non-believers are going to hell might have some difficulty with it decades later when they stop believing?

That's why indoctrination at a young age is so insidious.

Yes, this is true regardless of the age when one becomes a 'believer'. I wasn't even indoctrinated into a religion from a young age, I joined voluntarily as a teenager. When I left about a decade later, I had nightmares about 'the end' for a couple of years.

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Don't you think someone who may have been indoctrinated into a religion to believe all non-believers are going to hell might have some difficulty with it decades later when they stop believing?

That's why indoctrination at a young age is so insidious.

Partly true, for example me, I was raised as a Kemalist since my childhood and my brain was washed by British originated Turkish education system. My family is also quite strict Kemalists. Then I grew up with each passing day and I started to think for my own, I learned and discovered to use my thinking power. Then I lost all my confidence to Kemalist system. I discovered how Kemalists caused the collapse of Ottoman State, I discovered how they make us to forget our history, I discovered how they tried to make us non-Muslims. I discovered how they want a state that should be a lapdog of Western countries. So in summary, human being has a great power, thinking power and you cant fool a person as long as he/she dont want to be fooled. You can fool a child since he/she starts to think and decide for him/her own. You can fool a child that 2x2=5, since he/she raises to 8-9 years and you cant fool him/her anymore after he/she starts to understand multiplication.

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Partly true, for example me, I was raised as a Kemalist since my childhood and my brain was washed by British originated Turkish education system. My family is also quite strict Kemalists. Then I grew up with each passing day and I started to think for my own, I learned and discovered to use my thinking power. Then I lost all my confidence to Kemalist system. I discovered how Kemalists caused the collapse of Ottoman State, I discovered how they make us to forget our history, I discovered how they tried to make us non-Muslims. I discovered how they want a state that should be a lapdog of Western countries. So in summary, human being has a great power, thinking power and you cant fool a person as long as he/she dont want to be fooled. You can fool a child since he/she starts to think and decide for him/her own. You can fool a child that 2x2=5, since he/she raises to 8-9 years and you cant fool him/her anymore after he/she starts to understand multiplication.

There's no supernatural eternal punishment for not being a Kemalist. The analogy just isn't even close.

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So you mean that people believe in Islam because of they believe in Islam.

why would someone be afraid of something he/she dont believe in ?

No one knows what happens after you die.

So, I can easily predict something bad - unless you do what I say. ("If you don't do that - you will suffer eternal damnation.")

Add a Black Rock in a desert, verifiable but convoluted script/words and you have a cult worse than an ideology, It is superstition on steroids.

=====

We in the West once argued/fought about this nonsense not once but twice. We argued in the 15th century, and then again in the 17th century we had a civil war (1618-1649) about this.

Edited by August1991

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Partly true, for example me, I was raised as a Kemalist since my childhood and my brain was washed by British originated Turkish education system. My family is also quite strict Kemalists. Then I grew up with each passing day and I started to think for my own, I learned and discovered to use my thinking power. Then I lost all my confidence to Kemalist system. I discovered how Kemalists caused the collapse of Ottoman State, I discovered how they make us to forget our history, I discovered how they tried to make us non-Muslims. I discovered how they want a state that should be a lapdog of Western countries.

So are you saying you're now an Islamist and no longer believe Turkey should be a secular nation?

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So are you saying you're now an Islamist and no longer believe Turkey should be a secular nation?

What is an Islamist ? We dont have such concepts, we are just Muslims.

What is secularism ? To seperate matter of state and matter of religion from each other ? or not to treat people according to their religious believes ?

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What is an Islamist ? We dont have such concepts, we are just Muslims.

What is secularism ? To seperate matter of state and matter of religion from each other ? or not to treat people according to their religious believes ?

You were complaining about 'kemalists', those who respect the teachings of Ataturk who believed Turkey should be a secular democratic society. If you are opposed to that then the inference is you believe in an Islamic state, like Iran, for example, which implements Sharia and rules entirely according to the laws of Islam.

Edited by Argus

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You were complaining about 'kemalists', those who respect the teachings of Ataturk who believed Turkey should be a secular democratic society. If you are opposed to that then the inference is you believe in an Islamic state, like Iran, for example, which implements Sharia and rules entirely according to the laws of Islam.

I asked you that what is "secularism" ? If it mean not to treat people differently based on their religious believes, yes I want a secular state. But if you mean an atheist state by saying "secular", no we will never apply or accept such a thing.

Do you remember the verse ? "System belongs to Islam"

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I asked you that what is "secularism" ? If it mean not to treat people differently based on their religious believes, yes I want a secular state. But if you mean an atheist state by saying "secular", no we will never apply or accept such a thing.

Do you remember the verse ? "System belongs to Islam"

This is what scares Westerners the most about Islam, that so many of it's followers want a religious state and that if too many come to Canada, they'll overwhelm our political system and implement Islam. I don't believe they can get away with it, our commitment to a non-religious state is pretty strong.

At the same time, those Muslims who move to countries which do not have and do not want a religious state should make a commitment to following our system and to ensuring their fellow Muslims do as well. I believe most do, which is why I'm not hysterically proclaiming Islam to be a scourge on Western countries. If a Muslim wants a religious state and think they need to impose it wherever they are, then they need to remain in their own countries.

Edited by dialamah

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I asked you that what is "secularism" ? If it mean not to treat people differently based on their religious believes, yes I want a secular state. But if you mean an atheist state by saying "secular", no we will never apply or accept such a thing.

Secularism means the state takes no official position nor preference of any established religion, and creates rules and laws without regard to the religious beliefs of the individual citizens. Given citizens often have different religions or different views of how a religion should be interpreted, this is considered a good thing in the West.

Under a secular government, for example, someone who chose to leave Islam or any other religion, would face no state sanctioned punishment. The United States is a secular nation although of course, it is not an atheist nation. Under Islam, however, apostasy (leaving Islam) can be punished with the death penalty. Several Islamic countries, including Saudi Arabia and Iran, do so. They also have the death penalty for blaspheme or 'disrespecting' the prophet.

Edited by Argus

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This is what scares Westerners the most about Islam, that so many of it's followers want a religious state and that if too many come to Canada, they'll overwhelm our political system and implement Islam. I don't believe they can get away with it, our commitment to a non-religious state is pretty strong.

That is not quite correct. I don't think Muslims will have the numbers to demand an Islamic state here. What I do think is they will have the numbers to influence politicians into catering to their backward religious based cultural beliefs in a number of areas. There is also, of course, the issue of angry young religious fanatics causing trouble out of outrage at what they see as a violation of the requirements of Islam, even by non-Muslims. The story I posted about the young Muslims attacking the families in Tolouse because the women wore shorts being one example.

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Anything other than a secular country is doomed to fail and also wrong-headed.

Can anyone name a country that isn't based on secular values that is doing well in the usual indicators? Freedom indices being the ones that come to my mind first.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#Middle_East_and_North_Africa

The Middle East does terribly of course. They are doing it wrong, and it's because of religion.

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No, it's clearly because of the proliferation of foreign funded dictatorships and warlords throughout the ME the last 5 - 6 decades.

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No, it's clearly because of the proliferation of foreign funded dictatorships and warlords throughout the ME the last 5 - 6 decades.

You think they would all be secular democracies by now? It would be interesting to visit that universe.

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Anything other than a secular country is doomed to fail and also wrong-headed.

Can anyone name a country that isn't based on secular values that is doing well in the usual indicators? Freedom indices being the ones that come to my mind first.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#Middle_East_and_North_Africa

The Middle East does terribly of course. They are doing it wrong, and it's because of religion.

This is true. Even when they do make laws against some of their worst practices I think they don't really do enough to enforce them, although I welcome every step in that direction. It took Western/Christian nations 300 years (?) to get to a pretty good level of individual freedoms, equality and rights, and to finish the job required a divorce from Christianity. It's slow going, and I would hope we'd be an example of acceptance and tolerance, instead of reverting to fear and hatred.

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This is true. Even when they do make laws against some of their worst practices I think they don't really do enough to enforce them, although I welcome every step in that direction. It took Western/Christian nations 300 years (?) to get to a pretty good level of individual freedoms, equality and rights, and to finish the job required a divorce from Christianity. It's slow going, and I would hope we'd be an example of acceptance and tolerance, instead of reverting to fear and hatred.

This process was well underway in places in the ME/Islamic nations, most importantly in Iran, but we chose to arrest that process and the rest as they say is history.

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That's why I put a question mark on it. "No" would have sufficed.

No it wouldn't. You'd still be in here just as confused about where I'm coming from and why.

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No it wouldn't. You'd still be in here just as confused about where I'm coming from and why.

I would manage...

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Warning again... (people asked me to give due warning before threads are shut down you see)

Once again: please stop the petty bickering and OT drift.

August 1991 posted an interesting topic - a rarity - and people here have the temerity to make a free speech issue out of drifting the thread to: "did not" / "DID TOO !" type discussions.

Please show August some thanks and return to the topic, many thanks.

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Secularism means the state takes no official position nor preference of any established religion, and creates rules and laws without regard to the religious beliefs of the individual citizens. Given citizens often have different religions or different views of how a religion should be interpreted, this is considered a good thing in the West.

Under a secular government, for example, someone who chose to leave Islam or any other religion, would face no state sanctioned punishment. The United States is a secular nation although of course, it is not an atheist nation. Under Islam, however, apostasy (leaving Islam) can be punished with the death penalty. Several Islamic countries, including Saudi Arabia and Iran, do so. They also have the death penalty for blaspheme or 'disrespecting' the prophet.

Yes we want a state ruled according to Islam. We cant call it simply as a religion but its a system of rules.

Edited by Altai

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