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The Russians are upping the ante. They say that they are owed about $3 billion for gas from Ukraine and have turned off the taps. They demand at least $1 billion payment before they open those taps again.

Are they entitled to this demand"

Do they have the right to turn off those taps?

How is this going to end?

Yes they are entitled to their demand. Pay up or the taps are shut. Same reason the taps were shut off last time. The price was not agreed on and then Ukraine shut the taps off. During some of the coldest months eastern Europe has experienced in a long time.

If you can't pay your bills, do you complain when the utilities get shut off? Or do you expect it?

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2monty16:

Oh yes. I have noticed that this massacre in South East Ukraine is taken for granted by US and EU mass media. Very few of them give unprejudiced interpretation of Ukrainian events. Mostly I see BS and hostility towards Russian even though they live in Ukraine there. However I don't like Russia very much. But I think that it is useful reading Ukrainian and Western and Russian versions of Ukrainian crisis course of events compiling my own opinion.

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2monty16:

Oh yes. I have noticed that this massacre in South East Ukraine is taken for granted by US and EU mass media. Very few of them give unprejudiced interpretation of Ukrainian events. Mostly I see BS and hostility towards Russian even though they live in Ukraine there. However I don't like Russia very much. But I think that it is useful reading Ukrainian and Western and Russian versions of Ukrainian crisis course of events compiling my own opinion.

And why don't you like Russia very much? Give us a little short story at least, if you can't give us the long version. It has to be just too good to miss!

If you stay current with the situation by checking out RT news then you will see that the violence hasn't died down in the least. The Kiev government is actively involved in the killing of pro-Russians. The US media has no interest in what's going on at the moment, other than to be standing behind the scenes and encouraging violence.

It's likely that Russia won't be able to come to the rescue of Ukrainians in the Eastern and Southern region but we should also wonder just how much US promoted violence Putin will put up with.

Simply put, if anyone doesn't want to be left in the dark over what's really happening, they're going to have to get their news from RT. However, I for one would sure like to hear another interpretation of it all.

Please don't take offence Hellrider. I know that it's sometimes necessary to put in the disclaimer when talking about Russia. It does little harm as it's not taken all that seriously anyway.

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Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova have signed a trade agreement with the EU.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/06/ukraine-eu-trade-deal-russia-20146277595919703.html

This was the issue that triggered the original uprising in Kiev. It will be interesting to see if/how this will effect the Russian demand for payment from Ukraine of $billions it still owes for Russian gas and the negotiations for a new price for Russian gas between Kiev and Russia.

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The long and the short of it is that the US/Nato's plans for expansion went awry.

You are inventing issues. This was about EU membership and Putins efforts at forcing Ukraine back into the Soviet sphere of influence he is rebuilding.

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You are inventing issues. This was about EU membership and Putins efforts at forcing Ukraine back into the Soviet sphere of influence he is rebuilding.

Well it had a little bit to do with a coup d'etat against a democratically elected president as well, as crappy of a president as he may have been.

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Well it had a little bit to do with a coup d'etat against a democratically elected president as well, as crappy of a president as he may have been.

Mostly right! Except that you always need to drop in the disclaimer and parrot the anti-Russian politics of claiming the democratically elected president was crappy.

Gee, so crappy that the people chose him? And would have decided to throw him out if they wanted to choose another one.

So what's wrong with this picture other than US fomenting unrest in order to install the US sympathetic president.

Man, once a US apologist is spun there's a lot of work to counterspin one.

Not suggesting you dre, you got it at least half right

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You are inventing issues. This was about EU membership and Putins efforts at forcing Ukraine back into the Soviet sphere of influence he is rebuilding.

You don't even parrot the propaganda very well.

Your only problem is going to be that Russia has the resources necessary for the Ukraine and that equals holding all the marbles. The US doesn't even have enough for themselves.

So if the US decides it wants to play the cold war game again, it's not going to be nearly as easy with Russia.

Quite exciting really to think of how this is going to end!

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Well it had a little bit to do with a coup d'etat against a democratically elected president as well, as crappy of a president as he may have been.

Wouldn't a coup remove the parliament? Was the president arrested? Nope. He agreed to turn over power, then he ran off to Russia, his paymaster. Now a new president has been elected.

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You don't even parrot the propaganda very well.

No unlike yourself I don't try to. I have a functioning mind after all.

Your only problem is going to be that Russia has the resources necessary for the Ukraine and that equals holding all the marbles. The US doesn't even have enough for themselves.

So if the US decides it wants to play the cold war game again, it's not going to be nearly as easy with Russia.

Quite exciting really to think of how this is going to end!

You are looking forward to mass executions, misery and war? Odd kind of person, aren't you?

Are you an admirer of Adolph Hitler, by any chance?

Edited by Argus

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Wouldn't a coup remove the parliament? Was the president arrested? Nope. He agreed to turn over power, then he ran off to Russia, his paymaster. Now a new president has been elected.

He agreed to turn over power after revolutionaries started storming government buildings.

Power did not change as the result of an election.

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He agreed to turn over power after revolutionaries started storming government buildings.

Power did not change as the result of an election.

Simple, to the point, and right on the money. Sometimes the real truth can't be counterspun by US propgandists. the only annoying thing about it is that the propagandized and indoctrinated don't understand that they are being had.

First, the trouble begins with the people and their perspective toward the evil their country is doing throughout the world. Might starts to lose it's power to make right, then the empire starts to crumble and a new world power rises up to take the empire's place.

I suspect a colalition of good forces over evil and it's not going to be something that can be bombed away this time.

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He agreed to turn over power after revolutionaries started storming government buildings.

Power did not change as the result of an election.

Was he in danger? Was his government in danger of falling? The way parliaments work is that when the guy in charge loses the support of the majority of the members his position becomes untenable. He lost that support not because of 'storming of buildings', which didn't happen more than once that I'm aware of, but when his security apparatus started shooting people down like dogs. At that point, in parliamentary terms, his position became untenable and he agreed to make changes, largely consisting of going back to the constitution he had changed to give himself more power.

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He agreed to turn over power after revolutionaries started storming government buildings.

Time to time, protesters "storm" something in every democratic country. It has nothing to do with overthrowing government.

Only taking over a presidential residence can pose a risk to the president.

Please list dates and "government" buildings that protesters took over.

Argus's arguments are absolutely logical. There were no any risk to Yanukovich life. He signed the agreement after negotiations brokered by the European Union. Nether EU nor UN saw any legitimacy issue with the interim Ukrainian president. If you know something that the world-class diplomats didn't, please, tell us. If you are merely repeating Moscow's propaganda, it has been condemned in the UN.

Edited by ASIP

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Anybody whose imagination leads them to believe that Yanukovich didn't need to run for his life should consider the response this kind of protest would get in the US if it was the Whitehouse that was being stormed.

The obvious cure for the problem would be to shoot them all dead in the US, the land of the gun.

In stark comparison, Tiannamen square where a tank stopped short of rolling over a lone individual protester! We can hold Kent State up to be a sharp contrast!

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Anybody whose imagination leads them to believe that Yanukovich didn't need to run for his life should consider the response this kind of protest would get in the US if it was the Whitehouse that was being stormed.

The obvious cure for the problem would be to shoot them all dead in the US, the land of the gun.

Anybody with normal logic would find a building in Ukraine that is an equivalent to the White House. Dates of "storming" are also known. After that it is obvious that you and dre have no idea about the real events in Ukraine.

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No unlike yourself I don't try to. I have a functioning mind after all.

You are looking forward to mass executions, misery and war? Odd kind of person, aren't you?

Are you an admirer of Adolph Hitler, by any chance?

No, I'm not looking forward to mass executions, etc. And I'm not an odd person. Nor am I an admirer of Adolph Hitler.

Which counts up to three more personal attacks against me.

And of course I've reported them!

Please stop the personal attacks. You can do better than that if you simply debate my ideas without the insults! Thanks!

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http://rt.com/news/169240-ukraine-rally-ceasefire-martial/

His supporters are calling for martial law to crush the opposition being put up by his own people. Is he afraid that the US/Nato won't come to his rescue and save his head staying on his shoulders? Is he afraid that Russia "isn't" afraid of the US/Nato and will finally react to this abuse of his power that isn't balanced in the interests of his people.

I predict that Russia is going to ride this for a long time in order to make the solid case against Poroshenko and his regime. Then look out.

And so, the question is: Will the US/Nato come into it with an equal demonstration of power? Not that anybody should misunderstand what that means if they do.

Edited by Charles Anthony
merged thread; old title was "Why Does Poroshenko Drag His Feet."

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http://rt.com/news/169240-ukraine-rally-ceasefire-martial/

His supporters are calling for martial law to crush the opposition being put up by his own people. Is he afraid that the US/Nato won't come to his rescue and save his head staying on his shoulders? Is he afraid that Russia "isn't" afraid of the US/Nato and will finally react to this abuse of his power that isn't balanced in the interests of his people.

I predict that Russia is going to ride this for a long time in order to make the solid case against Poroshenko and his regime. Then look out.

And so, the question is: Will the US/Nato come into it with an equal demonstration of power? Not that anybody should misunderstand what that means if they do.

The US/Nato can achieve what they need to do with economic sanctions. Putin's economy is already in the toilet and the current sanctions have come home to roost and that is why Putin is backing off.

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The US/Nato can achieve what they need to do with economic sanctions. Putin's economy is already in the toilet and the current sanctions have come home to roost and that is why Putin is backing off.

Good observation friend. I didn't know that your area of expertise would be economics. So I can dance to that tune too! Question: Is Russia's failing economy being reflected in the value of the Russian ruble on the world market? And if so then over what period of time could we expect to see that influence kick in?

Take your time with that pal! It's a trick question and there's going to be a test!!

Edited by monty16

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Post this in the Ukraine Crisis thread. Stop creating new topics of the same subject please.

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Good observation friend. I didn't know that your area of expertise would be economics. So I can dance to that tune too! Question: Is Russia's failing economy being reflected in the value of the Russian ruble on the world market? And if so then over what period of time could we expect to see that influence kick in?

Take your time with that pal! It's a trick question and there's going to be a test!!

Capitol flight from Russia around 60 billion for Q1 of this year, stock market down 20%, Ruble down 8% against the buck, interest rates up from 5.5 to 7.5%, IMF forecast of growth down from 1.3 to 0.2%.

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Post this in the Ukraine Crisis thread. Stop creating new topics of the same subject please.

My topic all differ in a significant way so unless I'm ordered by the forum's admin or mods to do what you demand, I'm just going to ignore it.

And a question that is a little off topic if you will for a minute: Is it against the rules to mention another forum wherr the level of discourse is of a much higher quality and the moderators don't put up with the same sort of abuse this one puts up with?

Not to suggest that this forum has become redundant because it hasn't. It's content is still an educating experience for the propagandized US lemmings who are not well suited to an elevated level of discourse.

I'm only asking because I would like to point out a few comparisons. So what do you think Shady?

And to be completely honest, I'm starting to feel like a bit of a bully.

Edited by monty16

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Capitol flight from Russia around 60 billion for Q1 of this year, stock market down 20%, Ruble down 8% against the buck, interest rates up from 5.5 to 7.5%, IMF forecast of growth down from 1.3 to 0.2%.

Try and remember those numbers as there will be a test.

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Capitol flight from Russia around 60 billion for Q1 of this year, stock market down 20%, Ruble down 8% against the buck, interest rates up from 5.5 to 7.5%, IMF forecast of growth down from 1.3 to 0.2%.

But, but, but, why do the charts not show the Ruble down against the greenback? Did you answer a little too hastily friend?

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