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Will Ukraine Be Partitioned?


Ukraine Partition  

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Sorry, I presented facts. Do you have any problem with them?

ASIP I have not had a chance to say I suport your comments and appreciate them and the people who stereotype you as "typical" this and "typical" that are to be taken with a grain of salt. When people can't dispute what you say, and they go after you individually as a person and start labelling you.

It's easy for people to talk about the Ukraine when they live in Canada and take their shelter and privilege for granted.

Ukrainians sacrificed for their country to be free. They did not ask for it to become corupted by Russian controlled puppets and they challenge that coruption. The amount of money the Russian puppet leader wasted and spent on himself before the people said enough, speaks for itself. It is precisely the kind of coruption these pro Putin apologists won't admit just as they ignore the fact that the puppet in Crimea Putin has imposed illegally is a well known criminal from the Russian syndicate.

The Ukrainian people will prevail and they have no one to apologize to.

The Ukrainian people have not turned on the Russians who were brought into the Ukraine and given a better standard of living through the former communist party. Russians in the Ukraine are not victims. They have not been persecuted by Ukrainians. This is not about them. It is about a navy port and the need to also have that port to ship natural gas.

Putin already had a deal allowing him unhindered access to the naval port in crimea and use of the harbour to export his gas. It was never endangered by the Ukrainian government or the Ukrainian people.That is a blatant lie by Putin who needed a pretense to invade.

This is about Putin pushing the envelope to show Euorpe he is stepping up now that the US is faced with a huge internal economic crisis and reclaiming the Soviet Empire. This is a response to what he sees as the US and Europe breaking an agreement he thought he had with the Euro Community and US that Poland, the Baltic States, etc., would not be pulled under the NATO empire.

He is serving a message that now that the US is crumbling internally from its economic collapse he will take advantage of that collapse to ake back what he wants when rebuilding his empire.

Europe has far to long expected the US to carry its battles. The fact is the US can not. It no longer has the money to do so.

So it is time for Europe to step up and defend the Ukraine by saying no to Russian gas and by throwing it out of the G8, suspending all trade with it. Its time for Europe to step up.

Edited by Rue
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Thank you, Rue.

I completely share all your points.

Ukraine does not expect Europe, the US and NATO will interfere militarily. Maximum that can be done by Europe to stop Putin aggression is some economical sanctions against Russia.

If Russia won't be stopped now, it will move farther north and west. The dream of Putin is to restore Russian Empire.

There is still small hope that the US will implement sufficient sanctions to hurt Putin's oligarchs economically. However this is difficult.

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Thank you, Rue.

I completely share all your points.

Ukraine does not expect Europe, the US and NATO will interfere militarily. Maximum that can be done by Europe to stop Putin aggression is some economical sanctions against Russia.

One threat of that, and the gas and oil taps get shut off. Some of Europe was crying a couple years back with the lowered supply from Ukraine because a price could not be negotiated.

If Russia won't be stopped now, it will move farther north and west. The dream of Putin is to restore Russian Empire.

Only for a short time, then it will swing back the other way, always has, always will. Back and forth.

There is still small hope that the US will implement sufficient sanctions to hurt Putin's oligarchs economically. However this is difficult.

Putin took care of the oligarchs. Jailed them and took over their private enterprises for the state. Putin is a very smart, ruthless and persistent man.

And what sanctions could be put on Russia that would affect them?

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Ukrainians sacrificed for their country to be free. They did not ask for it to become corupted by Russian controlled puppets and they challenge that coruption. The amount of money the Russian puppet leader wasted and spent on himself before the people said enough, speaks for itself. It is precisely the kind of coruption these pro Putin apologists won't admit just as they ignore the fact that the puppet in Crimea Putin has imposed illegally is a well known criminal from the Russian syndicate.

The Ukrainian people will prevail and they have no one to apologize to.ending all trade with it. Its time for Europe to step up.

Rue, you describe this so simply for a western, Lutheran/Catholic audience.

Ukraine: innocent oppressed victim, good. Russia: strong oppressor, bad.

Life ain't so simple.

Edited by August1991
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Ukraine? There is a city in western Ukraine, Lvov.

It has a hospital that still has the Star of David on its cupola, in 2014.

But there are no Jews in this city.

====

IMHO, we must avoid appeals to nationalism - and zero-sum thinking.

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I agree with August; things aren't nearly so simple as bad Ukrainian President, bad Russians, good Ukrainian opposition.

First of all, yes, I agree Putin is a thug.

Second, I agree that Yanukovych was extremely corrupt. That is, I accept the near-unanimous consensus on that score.

And yes, I also agree that there is a legitimate and decent opposition.

However, there are darker forces within this opposition. And while that's true of any such complex scenario, any uprising, revolution, or even mass protest....it's not always that the darkest elements manage to immediately wend their way into power.

Rue: surely you're not too sanguine about the fact that a big part of the opposition (a minority, yes, but an important minority) are neo-fascists? Anti-Semitic fascists...and they're now part of the new power elite in Ukraine. I can't believe this doesn't bother you on some level.

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As I said earlier, the ideology of the people who are in charge in Ukraine now and whom the EU supports is not that far from the ideology of politicians and parties in Western-Europe which have been relegated into a pariah-status and have been universally condemned as bigots.

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Putin took care of the oligarchs. Jailed them and took over their private enterprises for the state. Putin is a very smart, ruthless and persistent man.

And what sanctions could be put on Russia that would affect them?

Putin applies the same principle "divide and conquer" to Russian oligarch. He cannot eliminate them right now. They support Putin because his policy allows them to expand their business. Once the West finds a way to hurt their business they remove Putin themselves.

This is the only way the situation can be resolved. Otherwise, it will be that "back and forth" you pointed out. Putin won't stop at Crimea. The trophy is too small for him.

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Rue, you describe this so simply for a western, Lutheran/Catholic audience.

Ukraine: innocent oppressed victim, good. Russia: strong oppressor, bad.

Life ain't so simple.

I agree with August; things aren't nearly so simple as bad Ukrainian President, bad Russians, good Ukrainian opposition.

No question, there are complexities. But often, the "simple" analysis is right. Think Occum's Razor.
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Rue: surely you're not too sanguine about the fact that a big part of the opposition (a minority, yes, but an important minority) are neo-fascists? Anti-Semitic fascists...and they're now part of the new power elite in Ukraine. I can't believe this doesn't bother you on some level.

It seems you are obsessed with "fascism and anti-Semitism" of Ukrainian people. This would have been ridiculous if this wouldn't be sad. There is no any troubles with what you have in your mind in the mainland Ukraine. There is even a new word appeared in Ukraine to describe the utter nonsense you follow: "жидо-бандеровец" (in Russian), transliterated "zhido-banderovets". Unless you can understand the meaning of this word your expertise in the current event is poor. You are driven by your emotions and not by rationale.

To the contrary, there are documented facts of anti-semitism erupted in Crimea after the so-called new Crimean government grabbed the power with the help of Russian commandos.

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Putin applies the same principle "divide and conquer" to Russian oligarch. He cannot eliminate them right now. They support Putin because his policy allows them to expand their business. Once the West finds a way to hurt their business they remove Putin themselves.

I doubt it. The Russian state television is owned by Gazprom. Gazprom used to be a private entity after Yeltsin allowed for privatization. Putin changed it back. They will have a hard time removing Putin as he has places a lot of key people around him. He controls a lot and does not seem to have much push back from the Russian population.

He took down and jailed the CEOs of those private companies and nationalized them. He saw privatization as a form of Western influence on their society and detrimental to the ideology he holds as an old school Soviet.

This is the only way the situation can be resolved. Otherwise, it will be that "back and forth" you pointed out. Putin won't stop at Crimea. The trophy is too small for him.

Putin's goal is to resurrect the Soviet Union. I think he will get it, and without much push back from anyone else.

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It seems you are obsessed with "fascism and anti-Semitism" of Ukrainian people.

His reply was regarding Rue. Rue holds the Jew close to his heart. And is quite passionate about his position and the plight of Jews around the world. So BH's one statement is not an obsession.

Putin represents the old Soviet fascism. It is a factor here and cannot be ignored.

To the contrary, there are documented facts of anti-semitism erupted in Crimea after the so-called new Crimean government grabbed the power with the help of Russian commandos.

It seem that that was what BH was talking about. You claim BH is obsessed but yet you seem to confirm his notion.

Edited by GostHacked
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ASIP, I am not "obsessed with the fascism and anti-Semitism of the Ukrainian people"; I'm not "obsessed" with anything.

I wasn't discussing the Ukrainian people as a whole.

Rather, I express interest and curiosity on the question of whether Svoboda are anti-Semitic fascists...which is frequently an allegation laid against them.

As I've said, I have no horse in this race; if there is any counter-evidence (that is, if Wiki, and so many other sources, are wrong) then that's great. In fact, it would be better if I were wrong than right.

Edited by bleeding heart
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It seem that that was what BH was talking about. You claim BH is obsessed but yet you seem to confirm his notion.

I saw like BH without any facts insisted that there is a fascist threat in Ukraine, pointing out on Svoboda party. I say that such threat is not proven. This threat arose when Russians occupied Crimea. Antisemitism acts happened in Crimea now. Svoboda party has no branches in Crimea.

I confirm that foreign occupation is a big concern in this regard.

ASIP, I am not "obsessed with the fascism and anti-Semitism of the Ukrainian people"; I'm not "obsessed" with anything.

I wasn't discussing the Ukrainian people as a whole.

OK, thank you for clarification, then I misinterpreted your words about the region.

Rather, I express interest and curiosity on the question of whether Svoboda are anti-Semitic fascists...which is frequently an allegation laid against them.

An answer is difficult. I cannot tell, I don't know. You have to find proven facts. I simply don't have them.

Edited by ASIP
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I saw like BH without any facts insisted that there is a fascist threat in Ukraine.

Yes there IS a fascist threat there. Called the Russians. More specifically Putin.

However it seems that western media is blowing the Russian troops already stationed there out of proportion claiming it is a new influx of troops. And you can bet Russia did what they could to make this happen. They wanted Crimea and that was that. Nothing about freedom or rights or any of that stuff we usually get from the western media. Russia wants Crimea and they got it. They claimed it for Russia without any of the pretexts of doing it for the people.

Edited by GostHacked
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The Crimean government and most of its people WANTED the Russians there.

There's no evidence of that. None. We know nothing about the parliamentarians in the Crimean parliament, even how many are there. The building was seized by masked gunmen days ago and on one is permitted in or out. The only thing you know about the desires of the Crimean people are the mobs in the street, which could represent a small minority. I recall the anti nuke protests in Europe in the eighties. They were massive, but they represented a minority opinion.

Its entirely up to them to decide on their own future, and thats exactly what they are going to do whether we piss and whine about it or not.

Nobody holds an honest referendum in a WEEK. It takes many, many months to plan such a thing. Doing it in a week suggests it needs to be held while there are enough Russian troops around to ensure it turns out the way Putin wants it to.

The Ukrainian government has no jurrisdiction in Crimea anymore... The Crimean government has voted to sever its ties with them. End of story.

So, let me get this straight. If some armed masked men seal off the PEI parliament and we get word that a new leaders has been selected and that the PEI parliament has voted that PEI is now a part of Cuba, that's it to you, right? End of story. Wow. Just... wow. This is so astonishingly, blindingly stupid I just can't comprehend the thinking behind it.

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IMHO, we must avoid appeals to nationalism - and zero-sum thinking.

So August, you're no longer a Quebec nationalist in favour of separation?

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I can't think of a more dangerous ingredient for a conflict or even a possible war than abandoning a healthy dose of nationalism. Multicultural nations which have been forced to stick together have eventually crumbled. The similar thing with the EU and the Schengen-treaty which is a blunder of a lifetime that Finland signed to it. The results are all too visible already and who knows what the future will bring.

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ASIP,

Thanks for your civil response. In a sense, we were arguing around each other a little; so to clarify, I agree with you that Putin is way, way out of line.

I guess my interest and concern in the matters I've been raising come down to that old worry: "here comes the new boss, same as the old boss."

As exemplified in Orwell's "Animal Farm," for example.

That is, if neo-fascists (or far-right politicos with fascist sympathies) are to become major players in the new Ukraine, then I would not defend them for anything.

However, as you say, it could well be that such fears are overblown. We'll see what happens.

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I believe that too often, nationalism is not the cause of violence but the excuse. I remember being an interested observer in an argument between two elderly friends in senior center in Toronto - one expatriate of Lithuania and one expatriate from Latvia. As the cognac continued to flow, the starting base of the discussion was based on the Ukraine to-day. Little by little, in started to recede in time. "Well, when Lithuania got its independence .....". "But when the Russians and Stalin sent ....". "It was really part of Poland during .....".

When the status of these "nations" during the time of Mesopotamia, Alexander the Great, the Huns and Sanskrit as the base of language, was argued, I lost track of the original discussion. Often the "nationalism" of an individual appears to depend what time frame that individual deems to be the formation of his/her "nation" and consequent nationalism.

Edited by Big Guy
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I think a healthy dose of nationalism goes 1:1 to an individual level that you respect others but don't let yourself be overrun by other people.

The same applies to the national level. I think most western countries with allowing mass-immigration have completely forgotten this.

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