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33 minutes ago, dialamah said:

If a Christian who is anti-abortion shoots an abortion provider because his religion tells him abortion is wrong, do you blame him for his choice and his religion for its teachings?  Or do you primarily blame him and consider his actions irrelevant to his religion?

 

Thou shalt not kill.

---One of the Ten Commandments

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17 hours ago, jacee said:

A woman's right to choose is not your business. 

 

So what are the Muslim women choosing in that photo?

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12 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

So what are the Muslim women choosing in that photo?

Most likely not to be beaten.

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57 minutes ago, dialamah said:

If a Christian who is anti-abortion shoots an abortion provider because his religion tells him abortion is wrong, do you blame him for his choice and his religion for its teachings?  Or do you primarily blame him and consider his actions irrelevant to his religion?

Obviously his religion is the over riding factor in his decision.  Why is that so hard to accept?

It doesn't mean that a Christian standing next to him is also a nutter.  She might be, but I'd want some evidence.

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Just now, bcsapper said:

Obviously his religion is the over riding factor in his decision.  Why is that so hard to accept?

It doesn't mean that a Christian standing next to him is also a nutter.  She might be, but I'd want some evidence.

 

Christianity is pretty clear on the Thou Shalt Not Kill bit.

Islam has a similar line with two exceptions: murder for honor is okay as well as murder to combat fitnah.

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17 hours ago, jacee said:

A woman's right to choose is not your business. 

It's funny because if you watched or read The Handmaid's Tale - when representatives of the government of Canada came to check out what was going on, the Handmaids all publicly voiced that what they were doing was their choice. Of course, they said that so they wouldn't be beaten or killed.

Edited by Goddess

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2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Christianity is pretty clear on the Thou Shalt Not Kill bit.

Islam has a similar line with two exceptions: murder for honor is okay as well as murder to combat fitnah.

Yeah, and those who interpret that to include the foetus become avenging angels.

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3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Yeah, and those who interpret that to include the foetus become avenging angels.

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

https://quran.com/5/32

That said: abortion as a form of birth control is heinous if not evil.

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23 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

https://quran.com/5/32

That said: abortion as a form of birth control is heinous if not evil.

Well, it's a different argument and a different thread, isn't it?  Forcing a woman to undergo a pregnacy and all that it entails because for her to choose not to do so offends one's beliefs is heinous if not evil.

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1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

Well, it's a different argument and a different thread, isn't it?  Forcing a woman to undergo a pregnacy and all that it entails because for her to choose not to do so offends one's beliefs is heinous if not evil.

 

I never said I'd force a woman to have a baby. I clearly said abortion as a form of birth control is heinous if not evil...and it is. 

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18 hours ago, bcsapper said:

1)They're choosing to wear those ridiculous outfits? 

2) Actually, a women's right to choose is everyone's business.  It's up to all of us to make sure a woman has a right to choose.

 

1) No more ridiculous than men putting a necktie noose around their neck every day, signifying their vulnerability and submission to slavery under the patriarchy of greed, wealth and power.

Or women conforming to the obligatory patriarchal 'business suit' ... the preferred short, tight skirt with slits, nude stockings, peekaboo chiffon blouse and high heels ... to please the masters' eyes and dicks ... cos otherwise you don't get or keep the job. 

The expected fashion-submission to uniformity to please capitalist imperialist  wealth and power is abhorrent to me from the safe perch of retirement, when most days a cozy mumu and a headscarf/bandanna are the most work-friendly attire: My body, my business, frack you and your perverted eyes who think you can judge me lacking because I reject your 'right?' to  sexualized 'looking'. (FFS, I'm an elder! Does the unwanted sexual harassment never fracking end???) All other things aside, a burqa style often seems a desirable fashion choice to me. Lol  No prying eyes, no tight and constraining clothing ... fewer rape worries.

As a friend of mine used to say ... "After work, I have to go to my car alone, in the dark. Who's going to want rape an old woman wearing elephant earmuffs!" 

What women choose to wear, and why, is nobody's business.

 2) Precisely. 

Edited by jacee

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5 minutes ago, jacee said:

1) No more ridiculous than men putting a necktie noose around their neck every day, signifying their vulnerability and submission to slavery under the patriarchy of greed, wealth and power.

Or women conforming to the obligatory patriarchal 'business suit', with the preferred short, tight skirt with slits, nude stockings and peekaboo chiffon blouse, to please the masters ... cos otherwise they don't get or keep the job. 

2) Precisely. 

 

To say that wearing the hijab is a choice in Islamic society is a lie. A woman got 24 years for removing hers in Iran.

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23 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

I never said I'd force a woman to have a baby. I clearly said abortion as a form of birth control is heinous if not evil...and it is. 

Understood.  And I wouldn't disagree, but it's still her choice.  I never said I approved.  Only that I was pro choice.

And I don't believe in asking why.  It's the same as gender selection.  Also not a very nice reason for an abortion.  But still preferrable to the alternative.

Edited by bcsapper

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19 minutes ago, jacee said:

1) No more ridiculous than men putting a necktie noose around their neck every day, signifying their vulnerability and submission to slavery under the patriarchy of greed, wealth and power.

Or women conforming to the obligatory patriarchal 'business suit', with the preferred short, tight skirt with slits, nude stockings and peekaboo chiffon blouse, to please the masters ... cos otherwise they don't get or keep the job. 

The expected fashion-submission to uniformity to please capitalist imperialist  wealth and power is abhorrent to me from the safe perch of retirement, when most days a cozy mumu and a headscarf/bandanna are the most work-friendly attire: My body, my business, frack you and your perverted eyes who think you can judge me lacking because I reject your 'right?' to  sexualized 'looking'.   

2) Precisely. 

It is more ridiculous. It's way, way more ridiculous.  That said, other than weddings, funerals and interviews, I wouldn't be caught dead in one.

The only fashion concession I make to my employer is with regard to safety.

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13 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It is more ridiculous. It's way, way more ridiculous.  That said, other than weddings, funerals and interviews, I wouldn't be caught dead in one.

The only fashion concession I make to my employer is with regard to safety.

You're a man? 

Easy for you to say so dismissively.

You don't have to get and keep jobs by conforming to the desires of vindictive male perverts. 

You don't automatically do 25+ things every day to 'prevent' rape ... or more accurately, to avoid being blamed for your own rape. 

You don't get to so flippantly dismiss those risks that never affect you. 

Edited by jacee

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28 minutes ago, jacee said:

men putting a necktie noose around their neck every day, signifying their vulnerability and submission to slavery under the patriarchy of greed, wealth and power.

Weird how you rail against this - although men are not jailed, beaten or killed for non-conformity - yet hijabs and burqas are symbols of women's empowerment and right to choose.

Honestly, the mind games and thought twisting you guys go through to excuse what Islam does is absolutely bizarre.

 

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6 minutes ago, jacee said:

You're a man? 

Easy for you to say so dismissively.

You don't have to get and keep jobs by conforming to the desires of vindictive male perverts. 

You don't automatically do 25+ things every day to 'prevent' rape ... or more accurately, to avoid being blamed for your own rape. 

You don't get to so flippantly dismiss those risks that never affect you. 

I was talking about how a Burka is a lot more ridiculous than a tie.  That is quite obvious.

Please don't put words in my mouth to suit your argument.

 

That said, how come you're (quite rightly) outraged at

Or women conforming to the obligatory patriarchal 'business suit', with the preferred short, tight skirt with slits, nude stockings and peekaboo chiffon blouse, to please the masters ... cos otherwise they don't get or keep the job. 

The expected fashion-submission to uniformity to please capitalist imperialist  wealth and power is abhorrent to me from the safe perch of retirement, when most days a cozy mumu and a headscarf/bandanna are the most work-friendly attire: My body, my business, frack you and your perverted eyes who think you can judge me lacking because I reject your 'right?' to  sexualized 'looking'. 

But not at Burkas?

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8 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Weird how you rail against this - although men are not jailed, beaten or killed for non-conformity - yet hijabs and burqas are symbols of women's empowerment and right to choose.

Honestly, the mind games and thought twisting you guys go through to excuse what Islam does is absolutely bizarre.

 

 

I always felt neckties were for hanging yourself...as a symbol. I never wear ties.

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On 9/10/2019 at 8:11 AM, Goddess said:

Yes, I was reading an article a while back by a Muslim reformer (I think Fateh, but I'm not sure....) who said we need to pay attention to weasel-y words like "As a Norwegian Muslim, I obey the laws of our country" or "As a Canadian Muslim, I don't agree with executing gays" because what they are saying is that as soon as Norway or Canada caves into Islam - they will be fully Muslim and our laws will not mean anything to them.

You really think that will happen? That these western countries will "cave" into extremist practices?

That's a mighty big fear you have that you continue to try to spread.

One of the biggest problems with you and your presentation of Islam/Muslims is that you continuously generalize. Like Muslims are all the same. They think the same. They dress the same.

I remember you posted a video of an Iranian woman in the streets of Iran, being followed by two 'religious police'. You tried to portray how Iranian men treat women. Of course, you never commented or acknowledged the end of the video when a large number of Iranian people, including men, came to the rescue of the woman who was being harassed by the religious police. For you, the worst of the worst who practice Islam is your take of who all Muslims are. This is what you continue to try to push. I have come to accept that you're nothing but a hack who is only here to spread hate through generalizations and stereotypes. 

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19 minutes ago, marcus said:

You really think that will happen? That these western countries will "cave" into extremist practices?

That's a mighty big fear you have that you continue to try to spread.

It's not a benign religion.  It's a political system - a political system than almost 80% of Muslims in the UK want instead of democracy.

Ex-Muslims and Muslim reformers have written books, articles and blogs warning of the same thing. So it's not just one little woman on an obscure internet forum.

Take your beef up with them.  If you can spare some time from your Jew-bashing.

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6 minutes ago, Goddess said:

It's not a benign religion.  It's a political system - a political system than almost 80% of Muslims in the UK want instead of democracy.

Ex-Muslims and Muslim reformers have written books, articles and blogs warning of the same thing. So it's not just one little woman on an obscure internet forum.

Take your beef up with them.  If you can spare some time from your Jew-bashing.

 

During the Islamic Conquests, relatively small numbers of Muslims were stationed in conquered lands to force conversion upon the population or accept the Jizya and Dhimmitude. While we're often on about Big Mo, we forget that the Companions had just as much influence shaping Islamic jurisprudence...Omar in particular with his Covenant to the Unbelievers. 

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12 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

we forget that the Companions had just as much influence shaping Islamic jurisprudence.

And right now it's the Saudis shaping Islamic jurisprudence.  You'd think that would concern both Muslims and non-Muslims but for some, if it does concern you - you're a racist.

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6 minutes ago, Goddess said:

And right now it's the Saudis shaping Islamic jurisprudence.  You'd think that would concern both Muslims and non-Muslims but for some, if it does concern you - you're a racist.

 

For the Sunni, yes.

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