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4 hours ago, dialamah said:

Agreed, bigoted hatemongering and dehumanizing discourse should be called out and condemned.  This applies whether its Imams and Mullahs calling Westerners evil, or Westerners referring to Muslims as barbaric and ignorant or refugees as backwards goat herders.

You don't think it's okay to tell the truth about people?  How come?

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5 hours ago, bcsapper said:

You don't think it's okay to tell the truth about people?  How come?

You don't think it's ok to call out Westerners for hate-mongering?  How come? 

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8 hours ago, dialamah said:

You don't think it's ok to call out Westerners for hate-mongering?  How come? 

Where did I separate out westerners?

I said both.

16 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Not if the Westerners really are evil or the Muslims really are barbaric. Or vice versa, for that matter.

It's not bigoted hatemongering and dehumanizing discourse if it's true.

Or did I misconstrue your post in some way.  It happens.

 

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11 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I agree these Imams must be silenced. For as @jacee and @Michael Hardner have said, oppressing free speech is free speech.

Yeah, that sounds logico...

They certainly can be counter protested and no platformed, etc.  I would object to them being beaten for it.

I realize some people are okay with that.

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27 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Where did I separate out westerners?

I said both.

It's not bigoted hatemongering and dehumanizing discourse if it's true.

Or did I misconstrue your post in some way.  It happens.

 

I said hatemongering is wrong, whether it's from Imams or Westerners.  Hatemongers use rhetoric and treat their targets as some monolithic group, few, if any, of whom can be trusted; if one acts in a certain (negative) way, then they all will. 

From a Muslim hatemonger - if one Jew kills an innocent Muslim, they all want to kill Muslims.  If one Westerner spits on a woman in a hijab, then they all will.  If a Western country invades their land, all Westerners are complicit and must pay.

The Westerners who hatemonger do the same thing.  If one Muslim kills an innocent Westerner, they all want to kill Westerners.  If one Muslim behaves barbarically towards a Jew, a westerner, a woman or an animal, then all Muslims are barbarians.  If one Muslim group declares war on the West, then all Muslims want war on the West.

Hatemongering doesn't just target those for whom the claims are true, it also targets those who are associated with the group, but who have entirely different beliefs and behavior.

(Edited because I missed one of your sentences.)

Edited by dialamah

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33 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I agree these Imams must be silenced. For as @jacee and @Michael Hardner have said, oppressing free speech is free speech.

No - you are against complaining about Don Cherry which isn't a restriction of freedom but now seem to be in favour of a state religion.

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6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I said hatemongering is wrong, whether it's from Imams or Westerners.  Hatemongers use rhetoric and treat their targets as some monolithic group, few, if any, of whom can be trusted; if one acts in a certain (negative way), then they all will. 

From a Muslim hatemonger - if one Jew is kills an innocent Muslim, they all want to kill Muslims.  If one Westerner spits on a woman in a hijab, then they all will.  If a Western country invades their land, all Westerners are complicit and must pay.

The Westerners who hatemonger do the same thing.  If one Muslim kills an innocent Westerner, they all want to kill Westerners.  If one Muslim behaves barbarically towards a Jew, a westerner, a woman or an animal, then all Muslims are barbarians.  If one Muslim group declares war on the West, then all Muslims want war on the West.

Hatemongering is hatemongering.  Hatemongering doesn't just target those for whom the claims are true, it also targets those who are associated with the group, but who have entirely different beliefs and behavior.

(Edited because I missed one of your sentences.)

Are we actually in agreement then?  Makes a change, but it's always nice!

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12 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Are we actually in agreement then?  Makes a change, but it's always nice!

Not really, because you allow hatemongering to go on under the "well it only applies against those for whom it is true".  An imam telling his people.that Jews must be eliminated because they hate Arabs doesn't differentiate between Jews who would kill Muslims and those who wouldn't.  That's hatemongering, the kind of hatemongering that leads to both innocent and guilty Jews being targeted.

A Westerner who doesn't differentiate between the behavior and beliefs of Islamic extremists and Muslims in general is indulging in the same kind of hatemongering; the end result is that both innocent and guilty Muslims are targeted.  

Edited by dialamah
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1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Not really, because you allow hatemongering to go on under the "well it only applies against those for whom it is true".  An imam telling his people.that Jews must be eliminated because they hate Arabs doesn't differentiate between Jews who would kill Muslims and those who wouldn't.  That's hatemongering, the kind of hatemongering that leads to both innocent and guilty Jews being targeted.

A weaterner who doesn't differentiate between the behavior and beliefs of Islamic extremists and Muslims in general is indulging in the same kind of hatemongering; the end result is that both innocent and guilty Muslims are targeted.  

Well now we get into the freedom of speech thing, that doesn't necessarily involve the truth.  I thought we were arguing about whether or not it's okay to tell the truth, regardless of how unpalatable it is. 

It's not true that Jews must be eliminated.  It's also incitement to violence.   I could never support that, of course.

It's not true that all Jews hate Arabs, but I would support the Imam's right to give his opinion.  I would object to it (that's my opinion) but I would not advocate hurting him for it.

Same with Westerners.

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7 hours ago, dialamah said:

From a Muslim hatemonger - if one Jew kills an innocent Muslim, they all want to kill Muslims.  If one Westerner spits on a woman in a hijab, then they all will.  If a Western country invades their land, all Westerners are complicit and must pay.

You have that ass backwards, as you usually do. It isn't a case of a Jew kills a Muslim and that incites these imams and mullahs. It's a case of them preaching hatred for Jews across the world regardless of anything Jews might or might not be up to.

7 hours ago, dialamah said:

The Westerners who hatemonger do the same thing.  If one Muslim kills an innocent Westerner, they all want to kill Westerners.  If one Muslim behaves barbarically towards a Jew, a westerner, a woman or an animal, then all Muslims are barbarians. 

No, it's more like if hundreds of thousands of them kill people out of fanatic love of Islam, and hundreds of millions more tell polling firms they completely agree with them, then this becomes a religion which contains all too many extremists and should be kept out of our country.

 

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This week in Islam... this post about the Muslim vote in Canada. It seems that Muslims in Canada, who voted over 80% Liberal last time around, had three primary issues this time around: foreign affairs, immigration, and health care.

Foreign affairs was certainly not a primary or even important issue for Canadian born people. But remember, these "Canadians" have loyalties abroad, primarily in the middle east, and their hatred for Israel and Jews continues to be an important part of their cultural makeup.

Likewise, immigration is not a very important issue for Candian born. But it is for Muslims because they're all immigrants and want to bring over more of their people.

A number of puzzled columnists and policy experts are currently trying to figure out why it was that Canada under Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has broken with its tradition of voting down United Nations resolutions that denounce Israel and – as happened last week – joining the pile-on to condemn the only Jewish state in the world.

So far the working conclusion they’ve arrived at is that it was done because Trudeau covets a two-year seat at the Security Council and this is one way to win over votes at the notoriously anti-Israel body. That’s no doubt part of it.

There could be something else at play though: Maybe this is just what Canadian voters want. Or at least what one highly motivated and increasingly influential segment of the electorate wants.

In the months leading up to the election, a group called The Canadian Muslim-Vote (TCMV) was unapologetic in predicting the power the organized Muslim vote could yield over the 2019 federal election results.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/furey-the-rise-of-the-organized-muslim-vote-in-canada

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On 11/24/2019 at 11:49 AM, dialamah said:

A Westerner who doesn't differentiate between the behavior and beliefs of Islamic extremists and Muslims in general 

The problem is that significant percentages of Muslims in general have views closely aligned to those of the so-called extremists.  You people need to start opening your eyes and stop rejecting simple facts and reality, just because the offend your sensibilities.

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1 hour ago, Shady said:

The problem is that significant percentages of Muslims in general have views closely aligned to those of the so-called extremists.  

Link to evidence? 

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1 hour ago, Shady said:

The problem is that significant percentages of Muslims in general have views closely aligned to those of the so-called extremists.  

The vast majority of Muslims do not believe it's ok to murder people with whom they have differences.  Even if they believe that homosexuality is forbidden, or that women should obey men or that Westerners are immoral, they do not go about killing them as a matter of faith.  You would know this if you ever stopped to ask yourself why there are gay people and gay advocates actually LIVING in Muslim countries, or why there hasn't been an increase of gays being killed in Canada given the increase in Muslims living here in the last decade.  

1 hour ago, Shady said:

You people need to start opening your eyes and stop rejecting simple facts and reality, just because the offend your sensibilities.

"You people" need to start understanding what bigotry is so you can stop practicing it.  "You people" need to actually get to know some Muslims and stop equating extremists with all Muslims.  

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9 minutes ago, dialamah said:

The vast majority of Muslims do not believe it's ok to murder people with whom they have differences. 

Nobody said the vast majority.  I said a significant percentage believe in radical views.  For example, 84% believe in making Sharia the law of the land.  Of that 84%, 89% believe in stoning as a punishment for adultery.  That's a fact.  Stop hiding from it because it makes you uncomfortable.  Shame on you for doing so.

 

https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

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11 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Go back and read - the polls have been posted many times.

Exactly, it's like a loop.  The polls get linked to dozens of times, yet they still ask for links.  It's ridiculous.

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41 minutes ago, Shady said:

Nobody said the vast majority.  I said a significant percentage believe in radical views.  For example, 84% believe in making Sharia the law of the land.  Of that 84%, 89% believe in stoning as a punishment for adultery.  That's a fact.  Stop hiding from it because it makes you uncomfortable.  Shame on you for doing so.

 

https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

A poll of British Muslims in 2016 showed that 2/3 of them would NOT report terrorist plots if they became aware of them.

So if the "vast majority" say they personally would not kill in the name of their religion - most are happy that someone else in Islam is willing to do so.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/659913/two-in-three-British-Muslims-would-NOT-give-police-terror-tip-offs

In 2015, the number of Muslims who enlisted in the British army was about 550.  Yet the number of British Muslims who joined ISIS was much higher - 850.  That does not include the hundreds that have been arrested while trying to leave to join ISIS.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/many-british-muslims-put-islam-first/

Quote

 

Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it.

The news is no less alarming on the question of freedom of speech. Seventy-eight percent support punishment for the people who earlier this year published cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed. Sixty-eight percent support the arrest and prosecution of those British people who "insult Islam." When asked if free speech should be protected, even if it offends religious groups, 62 percent of British Muslims say No, it should not.

Also concerning freedom of speech, as the NOP Research survey reports, "hardcore Islamists" constitute nine percent of the British Muslim population. A slightly more moderate group is composed of "staunch defenders of Islam." This second group comprises 29 percent of the British Muslim population. Individuals in this group aggressively defend their religion from internal and external threats, real or imagined.

 

That is 38% of British Muslims that will get aggressive if they feel Islam is being threatened, even if it's not.

So this claim:

Quote

The vast majority of Muslims do not believe it's ok to murder people with whom they have differences. 

......is a delusional belief.  Even if they would not personally murder, as you say - a significant portion support it because Islam has explicit teachings to go forth and kill.

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2 hours ago, Shady said:

Nobody said the vast majority.  I said a significant percentage believe in radical views.  For example, 84% believe in making Sharia the law of the land.  Of that 84%, 89% believe in stoning as a punishment for adultery.  That's a fact.  Stop hiding from it because it makes you uncomfortable.  Shame on you for doing so.

https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

What this survey demonstrates is that there is a wide range of beliefs among Muslims, despite "you people" insisting they're all extremists.

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12 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 despite "you people" insisting they're all extremists.

He said "significant percentage".  We can all see that's what he said.  We can all see that he is correct.  Why do you insist on this lie?

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6 hours ago, Shady said:

The problem is that significant percentages of Muslims in general have views closely aligned to those of the so-called extremists.  You people need to start opening your eyes and stop rejecting simple facts and reality, just because the offend your sensibilities.

Pew polls of American Muslims show a lot of moderation and patriotism.  If you want to talk about specific attitudes, yes there are many that are horrific but you can do that to any demographic and get the same result.  

When it comes down to it, the topic of "what is wrong with that group" seems to aim towards either general complaining, or a push for action against the group - either state sanctioned or not.  

So if people want to complain about how they hate Muslims, fine.  Lots of people complain about white people too - so be that way, and live in that world.  But if you want to start legislating religion, you're making my country anti-western so I will be against you.

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6 hours ago, Goddess said:

A poll of British Muslims in 2016 showed that 2/3 of them would NOT report terrorist plots if they became aware of them.

So if the "vast majority" say they personally would not kill in the name of their religion - most are happy that someone else in Islam is willing to do so.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/659913/two-in-three-British-Muslims-would-NOT-give-police-terror-tip-offs

In 2015, the number of Muslims who enlisted in the British army was about 550.  Yet the number of British Muslims who joined ISIS was much higher - 850.  That does not include the hundreds that have been arrested while trying to leave to join ISIS.

You can always count on the Murdoch Press for fair and balanced news that does not fan the flames of racism and fascism! And I guess the British quandary is the same s our's over here.......except that it's not! 

England, like the rest of so called liberal, enlightened Europe, just wants immigrants to try to balance out bad demographics of an aging population. They need more worker bees to take care of aging boomers and do other necessary jobs. But, England, like France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark and others, seem to have uncanny ways of red-lining the immigrants away from white native neighborhoods. And thanks to Mr. Third Way - Tony Blair, jumping into charter schooling (privatizing public schools and giving the school tax dollars to religious and other community groups that want to run the school system, should anyone be surprised that the Muslims in East London have used the money to set up their own Muslim schools where kids never interact with a non-Muslim until they grow up and are looking for work. 

Yet, the Murdoch-inspired fascists want to gin up fear and loathing of Muslims in England because of integration problems they've created themselves by their policies of keeping immigrants at arms length. Are relations with Muslim immigrants in England really worse than with Jamaicans and other Caribbean immigrants?  

 

Quote

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/many-british-muslims-put-islam-first/

That is 38% of British Muslims that will get aggressive if they feel Islam is being threatened, even if it's not.

So this claim:

......is a delusional belief.  Even if they would not personally murder, as you say - a significant portion support it because Islam has explicit teachings to go forth and kill.

 

And this propaganda originally from the National Review in 06, doesn't shine any light on the issue either!

How about if, here in Canada at least, we keep doing most of what we are already doing regarding immigration and naturalization issues! It's not perfect, but we haven't created the isolated ethnic ghettos found over there. Instead, we have public schools where children meet and interact with other kids from all over the world and from much different backgrounds. It may not be perfect, but it's better than the way they are handling immigration!

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3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Pew polls of American Muslims show a lot of moderation and patriotism.  If you want to talk about specific attitudes, yes there are many that are horrific but you can do that to any demographic and get the same result.  

When it comes down to it, the topic of "what is wrong with that group" seems to aim towards either general complaining, or a push for action against the group - either state sanctioned or not.  

So if people want to complain about how they hate Muslims, fine.  Lots of people complain about white people too - so be that way, and live in that world.  But if you want to start legislating religion, you're making my country anti-western so I will be against you.

The greatest terrorist threat in America today is white christian men. They may be inspired by racial supremacist theory, but if we're going to use religious affiliation as the yardstick, there's something wrong with Christianity. 

Or, what if religious teaching of any kinds are not the inspiration for killing or going to war, but instead are the excuses applied afterwards.

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