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That's rich, coming from you. No, you googled til you found an example of a Canadian to prove that we are exactly the same as Pakistan, to apologize for Islam, to minimize what Muslim countries

Islam is the single most barbaric and repressive religion on the planet.  By a very long way.  That is simply the truth.  I've never heard an argument to refute that fact, on here or anywhere else.  T

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2018/11/20/female-genital-mutilation-michigan/1991712002/ I had been following this case and am very disappointed in this ruling.  

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My friend was born and lived as a Muslim until like 30 something years old, he came into Canada and now every time we debate politics/religion he hates his former religion.

However Islam was founded 600 years after the founding of Christianity. Where was Christianity 600 years ago ? and with technology access I think the reformation in the Muslim community will be faster in a few generations. 

Ramadan Mubarak

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On 3/7/2020 at 5:05 PM, scribblet said:

I find it disturbing that this place would actually change the noise ordinance and approve the call to prayer over loudspeakers.  I can't imagine living near that or having to put up with the noise, worship however you like but over loudspeakers numerous times a day...    sure they have to allow other institutions to do it but really, no other institutions do that.   And no, Churches don't continually ring the bells.

http://patersontimes.com/2020/02/26/paterson-grants-preliminary-approval-to-measure-allowing-islamic-call-to-prayer/

 Council members voted 7-0-2 to approve a revised noise ordinance presented by councilman Shahin Khalique. The ordinance states, “Calls to prayer, including the Adhan, are exempt from the noise ordinance.” A previous iteration of the ordinance allowed calls to prayer from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. The revised ordinance does not include a time restriction.

Hi Scriblett, I read the article. Where is this happening? 

I agree. I don't want to hear this! It is so annoying that exceptions are always being made for this religion. I feel like it's someday going to be in my hometown....the call to prayer. What makes me think this? The men that pray on their carpets in public parks. 

From the article:

“It’s a call to prayer for everyone,” said Abdelaziz. “This is not a Muslim thing. It’s an exemption for all religious institutions.” 

Okay? 

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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://lawandreligion.com/sites/law-religion/files/Saved-By-The-Bells-Haroldson.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi4kYKxvYPpAhWrm-AKHWEQDb4QFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2n9cAwwYDI5hPtnJtbdOgF

 

Pretty complete summary of the law.

 

It's pretty hard to displace a religious organization that has community support.  I certainly don't agree with this but it's a matter of local politics.

 

Mission Texas tried to stop church bells in 2013 but was unsuccessful.

 

https://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/valley/mission-priest-pleads-not-guilty-at-hearing/article_dae82824-4da4-11e3-87a0-001a4bcf6878.html?mode=jqm

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5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://lawandreligion.com/sites/law-religion/files/Saved-By-The-Bells-Haroldson.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi4kYKxvYPpAhWrm-AKHWEQDb4QFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2n9cAwwYDI5hPtnJtbdOgF

Pretty complete summary of the law.

It's pretty hard to displace a religious organization that has community support.  I certainly don't agree with this but it's a matter of local politics.

Mission Texas tried to stop church bells in 2013 but was unsuccessful.

https://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/valley/mission-priest-pleads-not-guilty-at-hearing/article_dae82824-4da4-11e3-87a0-001a4bcf6878.html?mode=jqm

Says it was loud loud music, nothing about bells

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11 hours ago, Teena said:

Hi Scriblett, I read the article. Where is this happening? 

I agree. I don't want to hear this! It is so annoying that exceptions are always being made for this religion. I feel like it's someday going to be in my hometown....the call to prayer. What makes me think this? The men that pray on their carpets in public parks. 

From the article:

“It’s a call to prayer for everyone,” said Abdelaziz. “This is not a Muslim thing. It’s an exemption for all religious institutions.” 

Okay? 

It's in New Jersey,  also happening now in Minnesota  https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/historic-ramadan-call-prayer-echoes-minnesota-city-200424145353618.html

 

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15 hours ago, Teena said:

From the article:

“It’s a call to prayer for everyone,” said Abdelaziz. “This is not a Muslim thing. It’s an exemption for all religious institutions.” 

Okay? 

Practicioners of other religions pray too. They even got prayer time schedules like Muslims do.

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Noise restrictions should apply to everyone, religious or not.  And they should be very, very strict. 

Nobody should ever be forced to listen to anyone else's racket.

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5 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Noise restrictions should apply to everyone, religious or not.  And they should be very, very strict. 

Nobody should ever be forced to listen to anyone else's racket.

Enough of that!  If I wanna play my music in my front yard on a sunny afternoon, I don't need anti-freedom types like you coming along and telling me to shut it down!

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38 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Enough of that!  If I wanna play my music in my front yard on a sunny afternoon, I don't need anti-freedom types like you coming along and telling me to shut it down!

You can play it, as long as I can't hear it. 

Otherwise I might have to pull out my Stratocaster and see how you like me practicing the solo from the end of Hotel California!

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21 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Otherwise I might have to pull out my Stratocaster and see how you like me practicing the solo from the end of Hotel California!

I might like it; how bad are you, exactly?

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Just now, dialamah said:

I might like it; how bad are you, exactly?

You wouldn't like it.  I can pick an acoustic and not scare people too much, but I'm not much good playing lead solos on an electric guitar.  I only have it because my daughter got it to learn on, and then realised that was a mistake.  So I bought it off her so she could afford an acoustic.

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6 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

You wouldn't like it.  I can pick an acoustic and not scare people too much, but I'm not much good playing lead solos on an electric guitar.  I only have it because my daughter got it to learn on, and then realised that was a mistake.  So I bought it off her so she could afford an acoustic.

I'm pretty good, can play that solo if you'll play the chords. Used to do that with my Dad long, long time ago. Me yelling, B Minor! B Minor damn it.

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People do deserve the right to worship their god, but it should be done with minimum inconvenience to everyone else. That too is part of cooperating in a so-called multi culltural society. So just like there are zoning laws for everything, you cannot run a car garage in a residential area. You can't have sports events where whistles are blowing and loudspeakers blaring next to a residential area. City ordinances do allow variance for special events that might be once a month or something. Those specify dates and have time limits. I expect those same rules to apply to everyone equally. Is that unfair?

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Right, yet now the Madinah Masjid, at the heart of  Toronto’s Greek town along Danforth Avenue is playing the call to prayer but I don`t know if they are given an exemption from by laws or what.   I say heart of Greek Town, maybe it isn`t that anymore.

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7 minutes ago, scribblet said:

Right, yet now the Madinah Masjid, at the heart of  Toronto’s Greek town along Danforth Avenue is playing the call to prayer but I don`t know if they are given an exemption from by laws or what.   I say heart of Greek Town, maybe it isn`t that anymore.

:)

On 4/26/2020 at 1:31 AM, OftenWrong said:

should be done with minimum inconvenience to everyone else

Based on what? People don't ride motorcycles with 'minimum inconvenience to everyone else'. They also don't parade the streets nearly naked with 'minimum inconvenience to everyone else'. And they don't play music on street corners with 'minimum inconvenience to everyone else'.

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15 minutes ago, Marocc said:

People don't ride motorcycles with 'minimum inconvenience to everyone else'.

Roadways were made specifically for vehicular traffic  Not for prayer groups to block.

16 minutes ago, Marocc said:

They also don't parade the streets nearly naked with 'minimum inconvenience to everyone else'.

Parades get special permits to use the roadways.  I know you have said that your belief is that women should be covered up head to toe - do as you like, but no one else has to cater to your religious beliefs.

17 minutes ago, Marocc said:

And they don't play music on street corners with 'minimum inconvenience to everyone else'.

It's called busking.  You can either stop and listen or you can continue walking - the choice is your's.  I understand Islam is against music, so it makes sense that this would bother you.  But it rarely bothers anyone else.

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Motorcycles are subject to by laws which are usually enforced and not given any preferential treatment, by laws are by laws.

and in Toronto it was done through loudspeakers with permission of City Hall.  I bet they wouldn`t allow church bells to ring numerous times a day even without a loudspeaker and actually, the Salvation Army is not even allowed to ring their bells loudly at Christmas time - so - why preferential treatment for one religion?  Once given the okay you can bet it will gradually be extended.   As far as I'm concerned it's noise pollution.

As Bill Maher said ok, ass long as the mosque doesn't object to a strip joint and a gay bar opening either side of them.

 

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Vancouver's noise bylaw information page says:

Quote

 

The bylaw specifically regulates noise from:

[  ]

It doesn't regulate noise from:

Children playing

Church bells 

 

Oshawa's bylaws also allow for Church Bells ringing.

Victoria's bylaws allow for Church bells or chimes.

Toronto's noise bylaw says nothing about Church bells, but if it bothers you, you can report it.

Ottawa's noise bylaws specifically permits ringing of bells from any religious house or meeting; I can only imagine this would include calls to prayer.

On the other hand, Mississauga doesn't seem to have any exemptions for Church bells, but they do allow for 'special religious events and festivals', under which the evening call to prayer during Ramadan has been permitted.  Only the evening call, and only during Ramadan.

I don't have time (or interest) to check every municipality across Canada, but it does seem that, contrary to popular opinion on this forum, Islam and Muslims are not being given 'special permissions' to do something other religions are not allowed to do.  But no doubt the anti-Muslim gang here and everywhere will continue to spread the misinformation that Islam is being treated 'better' than Christianity.  Oh well.

Residents complain about Church bells.

 

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21 hours ago, scribblet said:

Motorcycles are subject to by laws which are usually enforced and not given any preferential treatment, by laws are by laws.

and in Toronto it was done through loudspeakers with permission of City Hall.  I bet they wouldn`t allow church bells to ring numerous times a day even without a loudspeaker and actually, the Salvation Army is not even allowed to ring their bells loudly at Christmas time - so - why preferential treatment for one religion?  Once given the okay you can bet it will gradually be extended.   As far as I'm concerned it's noise pollution.

As Bill Maher said ok, ass long as the mosque doesn't object to a strip joint and a gay bar opening either side of them.

 

I think this issue is much more multi-faceted and should not just be boiled down to "noise ordinances".

Church bells can be just as annoying to some people, as the call to prayer is to others.

The difference I see is that the bells are musical and contain no words - the purpose is not to proselytize.  ( I live next door to a church, the bells chime the time, which is sometimes helpful and also let people know when there is a wedding or funeral, which helps people to know they need to allow extra parking around the church at that time.  The exception is possibly the bells to begin services on Sunday mornings, but those have not been chimed since the recent covid-19 pandemic. I'm not sure why they made the decision to omit the bells at this time, but they did.)

The call to prayer is actual words and I think that's an importance difference.  Words have meaning.  "Adhan" in Arabic means " information, enlightenment", so it's more than just a time signal.

The purpose of the call to prayer is also different - another important thing to consider and I defer to Islamic scholars themselves, as to the purpose of the Islamic call to prayer:

Quote

 

Here is what the Sunni version of the adhan actually says in romanised Arabic and English.

Allahu Akbar The god is Greater (said four times)

Ashhadu an la ilaha illa Allah I bear witness that there is no god except the god (said two times)

Ashadu anna Muhammadan Rasool Allah I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God. (said two times)

Hayya ‘ala-s-Salah  Hurry to/rise up for the prayer (said two times)

Hayya ‘ala-l-Falah  Hurry to happiness/wellbeing (said two times)

Allahu Akbar  The god is Greater [said two times]

La ilaha illa Allah  There is no god except Allah

Allahu-Akbar is a statement of Islamic supremacy.

The “Omdat Al-Ahkam”, an important book for Islamic law, has this to say about the Adhan:

Adhan is a very important ritual in the religious practice of Islam, one can liken it to the Muslim flag. Its proclamation shows that the people of the city are Muslims.

It is also important for the proclamation of the word of Allah, thus manifesting the religion of Allah (Islam).

The prayer call begins with giving thanks by proclaiming ‘Allahu akbar,’ to show that Allah is the greatest and that everything and everyone should bow to Allah and Islam. The Islamic profession of faith is the second part of the prayer call (‘There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger.’)

This confirms Islam and proclaims it [Islam] across the country.

The prayer call should be done by a man who has a beautiful voice. The prayer call should be done with a loud voice. There is promise of a reward from Allah for a loud voice that reaches as far as possible. The prayer call will take place at the exact time of the five prayers.” (Emphases mine)

In “A summary of Islamic Jurisprudence” by Fawzan, we read:

“Each of the prayer call (Adhan) and the immediate prayer call (iqamah) has special wording which express creed and faith. Both of them begin with takbir (saying “Allahu-Akbar” i.e. “Allah is the greatest”) which is a sign of glorification of Allah, Almighty and Ever-Majestic be He. Then the Two Testifications of of Faith are to be declared [“I testify that there is no Deity but Allah” & “I testify that Mohammed is the Messenger of Allah”.] as an acknowledgement of the Oneness of Allah, Exalted and Glorified be He, and the prophethood of our Prophet, Muhammed (PBUH). After that, a call for prayer, the basic pillar of Islam, is pronounced, following which a call for prosperity is pronounced, inviting all Muslims for prayer, the way to felicity and eternal delights [Houris etc.]. Finally, the wording of the prayer call ends with the takbir, which is the best way of remembrance of Allah and the word of sincerity and faith, whose greatness and virtue outweigh the seven heavens with all beings therein (excluding Allah) and the seven earths with all the beings therein.”

Moulana Ihtishamul Hasan Sahib Kandhelwi writes:

“The adhan is generally regarded as merely a call to salah but in reality, the secret of the loftiness and elevation of the Muslims is concealed in it. The adhan is not merely an announcement for salah but is in fact an open invitation to Islam five times daily in every place.”

In another article he says:

“Now the adhan is an announcement of true Deen [Islamic faith] and an elevation of the true word. … The place where the adhan is delivered [heard] is regarded as Darul Islam  an Islamic governed state. Whenever Nabi [Mohammed] heard the adhan from any locality, he did not attack that locality. If he did not hear the adhan, he would attack that place. … A person should stand on a high place and recite these words with a loud voice. Whatever distance his voice reaches, that is where the announcement of truth [Islam] will reach. … The city, town or village where the adhan is delivered is saved from the general punishment and wrath of Allah on that day [day of judgement]. Imam Tabarani has narrated from Anas that Nabi said, ‘When the adhan is called out in any village, Allah saves that village from His punishment on that day.‛ [Jam’ul Fawaid] … the actual aim of adhan is very high and noble, being the root of the religion of Islam. It is the real aim of the mission of all the prophets and messengers. The adhan is an open announcement and exposition of the Deen of Allah Ta’ala.

Shah Waliullah (Rahimahullah) writes:

“[Adhan] has become to the uninformed and the informed a call to Deen [Islamic faith]. Accepting it became a sign of submitting to Allah. Therefore it was necessary for the adhan to contain the mention of Allah, a testimony to the oneness of Allah and the prophethood of Nabi …”

Note what has been said: the Adhan proclaims, confirms and manifests (makes real) Islam across the Country, it expresses creed and faith. It also states that Allah and the Muslims are supreme and that areas in which the Adhan is heard belong to the “house of Islam” – i.e. are Muslim owned areas.

In other words the Adhan is a credal statement that proclaims Islamic and hence Muslim supremacy as well as Muslim ownership of the land in which it is heard. (No wonder some Muslims in western enclaves where the Adhan is heard – publicly or not – consider Islamic law above the law of the land and no wonder such areas are no-go areas for the arms of the [kaffir] government.)

It is worth remembering that in Muslim Countries Churches and temples have to ring bells, sound horns etc. in a quiet manage so as to not disturb the tranquillity of the Muslims and Church and Temple buildings have to be lower in height than the mosques to show the ‘inferiority’ of these kaffir religions. For similar reasons in many Muslim Countries non-Muslims have the greatest difficulty in getting permission to build or even repair their religious buildings, this with the aim of making non-Islamic religions disappear from the public sphere.

 

http://www.faithfreedom.org/church-bells-and-the-muslims-adhan/

 

Before I am accused of "racism" and "islamophobia",  (which is sure to happen anyways) the article points this out:

 

Quote

Do all Muslims believe those statements about the Adhan? No, I’m sure they do not. But orthodox Muslims (or at least the Islamically educated amongst them, such as those quoted above) will believe that or something similar.

......and it is these orthodox Muslims and fundamentalist Muslims and THEIR views which are causing so much trouble in the world, so I think it's only prudent to consider how THEY view such things.

Also, for educated non-Muslims - hearing "Allahu Akhbar" broadcast 30 times a day can be quite unsettling.  You can't argue (in good faith, at least)  that these words are not a statement of Islamic supremacy.  Is it unsettling to non-Muslims because they are all "racists" and Islamophobes"?  Or is it because of a well-deserved reputation for violence that Islam has cultivated?  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say.   There are quite a few comments in news articles about this issue from non-Muslims who previously lived in Islamic-ruled countries and who have fled the persecution there - about how frightening it is to hear the words of this "call to prayer".  Not everyone here will give a rip about THEIR feelings, but I think that also needs to be taken into account, especially when it's a religion that is known for violence, persecution and killing in the name of its "god".

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, scribblet said:

Another point lost on ones who advocate FOR the Islamic call to prayer in the name of pluralism and religious tolerance is the history of the Islamic call to prayer - the Islamic call to prayer was INVENTED by Mohammed TO BE DISTINCT FROM OTHER RELIGIONS AND TO SEPARATE ISLAM FROM THEM.  He wanted to use a human voice to do this BECAUSE it was different from the Jewish ram's horn (which is only blown at certain times of the year, not at all hours of the day) and the Christian bells (which also provided a non-religious function for the population - time signaling.)

Those who argue they are all the same, choose to ignore this history.

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33 minutes ago, scribblet said:

The petition makes an interesting point:

What about our veterans who served in the Middle East and heard this call everyday?  It is perpetuating their own PTSD symptoms.  With a high alert of mental health issues due to the Covid-19 outbreak, many people have been experiencing increased mental health issues like our veterans who fought in the Middle East wars.  Do you have any sympathy for the Canadian Veterans and their families who lost loved ones? 

I've seen this point in regard to other groups as well - I mentioned those who have fled Islamic persecution, only to find themselves having to listen to Allahu Akbar loudspeaker'ed through their neighbourhood 5 times a day.  As the above article pointed out - these are usually the last words victims of Islamic terrorism hear, which is unsettling to many.

Again, these points will mean nothing to those who place more importance on the religious rights of Muslims, than the rights of those who have been persecuted and killed in the name of Islam.

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