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Hey... it makes for good TV/DRAMA, and the reality is none of the chickenhawks on here are going to have to fight ANYONE. You knows REALLY enjoying it though? IRAN!

The civilian population of the West must be convinced that this is a just and winnable war. The video-game-like publicity of air strikes works towards that goal. I find it sad that we are watching infrastructure being destroyed that we will have to rebuild when (?) we win that war.

I see more and more retired military "experts" expressing grave concern about this war - from all sides of the political spectrum. The initial stages of any recent American war make the president look strong with explosions, people (enemy?) running and powerful jets and missiles sent on their way.

I really hope that those folks know what they are doing. There is nothing that they have done in that region that has proved successful. The "collateral damage" continues to create lines of recruits to ISIS and they have yet to concentrate into urban areas.

I believe that it would be stupidity and madness for Canada to get involved in this latest American crusade into a regional civil war.

Edited by Big Guy
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The civilian population of the West must be convinced that this is a just and winnable war. The video-game-like publicity of air strikes works towards that goal. I find it sad that we are watching infrastructure being destroyed that we will have to rebuild when (?) we win that war.

I see more and more retired military "experts" expressing grave concern about this war - from all sides of the political spectrum. The initial stages of any recent American war make the president look strong with explosions, people (enemy?) running and powerful jets and missiles sent on their way.

I really hope that those folks know what they are doing. There is nothing that they have done in that region that has proved successful. The "collateral damage" continues to create lines of recruits to ISIS and they have yet to concentrate into urban areas.

I believe that it would be stupidity and madness for Canada to get involved in this latest American crusade into a regional civil war.

It's not just about the West. Arab countries are also involved, and supportive of the action. But it's not a conventional war, wth a "winner" and "loser" and day of victory. It's just about degrading a terrorist organization. Cutting off it's funding, and diminishing it's military capabilities.

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I'll agree with you there Shady. I can see the possibility that the show of force may cause some extra whacko's to join the "cause", but as you say if you cut off the funding and destroy the equipment they found laying around, all that's left is a bunch of goofy looking whacko's standing around the wadi.Hand the Kurds a few AR's and let them sweep up the mess. i'm sure it won't be quite as simple as that but I'm getting a bit tired of having my favorite TV show interrupted for breaking news of yet another beheading.

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I'll agree with you there Shady. I can see the possibility that the show of force may cause some extra whacko's to join the "cause", but as you say if you cut off the funding and destroy the equipment they found laying around, all that's left is a bunch of goofy looking whacko's standing around the wadi.Hand the Kurds a few AR's and let them sweep up the mess. i'm sure it won't be quite as simple as that but I'm getting a bit tired of having my favorite TV show interrupted for breaking news of yet another beheading.

You have no idea what you are talking about. ISIL has no military strength... or at least very little. They have taken towns and cities because they are full of Sunnis that in Iraq dont want to be ruled by the Iran backed Shia central government, or in Syria dont want to be ruled by a small minority of Allawites. They take territory not because they are strong but because people dont want to fight. When they took Mosul 15 different baathist factions fought with them.

all that's left is a bunch of goofy looking whacko's standing around the wadi

No... whats left is a Sunni arab movement that controls towns and cities, and has fairly broad popular support in those places, and constitutes the current civil administration. Whats left is an urban insurgency to fight made up of the same people that trillions of dollars worth of "show of force" could not quell after the invasion of Iraq.

WHen you talk about trying to kill or stop ISIL what you are really talking about is trying to stop the desire for 20+ million sunnis in Iraq and Syria for self rule and self determination. Its pure fantasy and it wont end well.

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So you believe all those Sunnis are just beheaders? Not my experience having worked in the area.

Correct. This is a Wahabist movement out of Saudi Arabia. Majority of Sunnis do not support this movement. Here is a good article giving insight into the roots of ISIL and Wahabism:

You Can't Understand ISIS If You Don't Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia

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PM Harper was on American TV being interviewed by an American news publication when he stated that the USA had asked for additional assistance and Harper was considering our options. Very quickly, representatives from the USA stated that in fact Harper had approached the USA and asked what assistance Canada could be to the USA in this fight.

Somebody is lying.

To-day, Harper was tap dancing spinning something about there have been constant discussions blah, blah, blah. I think I know who was lying. This guy is going to drag us into another useless, bloody and expensive war. Prepare the body bags.

Edited by Big Guy
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PM Harper was on American TV being interviewed by an American news publication when he stated that the USA had asked for additional assistance and Harper was considering our options. Very quickly, representatives from the USA stated that in fact Harper had approached the USA and asked what assistance Canada could be to the USA in this fight.

Somebody is lying.

To-day, Harper was tap dancing spinning something about there have been constant discussions blah, blah, blah. I think I know who was lying. This guy is going to drag us into another useless, bloody and expensive war. Prepare the body bags.

George Bush? Jean Chretien? Harper didn't get us involved in Afganistan, It was Jean Chretien, so he could play golf with Bush II.

If you seriously saying Harper would get us involve in Iraq, you're just being silly. The man is all bark no bite with regards to military engagements just look at the crisis in Ukraine. All that talk about Russia and Putin, All he did was send a fighter wing to poland. Don't forget he's looking to make cuts to the military this year even as NATO is trying to enforse the 2% of GDP military spending rule (canada is sitting at around 1%) Harper is much more concerned with reducing the deficit, which remains his last saving grace. Wars aren't great for that.

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George Bush? Jean Chretien? Harper didn't get us involved in Afganistan, It was Jean Chretien, so he could play golf with Bush II.

If you seriously saying Harper would get us involve in Iraq, you're just being silly. The man is all bark no bite with regards to military engagements just look at the crisis in Ukraine. All that talk about Russia and Putin, All he did was send a fighter wing to poland. Don't forget he's looking to make cuts to the military this year even as NATO is trying to enforse the 2% of GDP military spending rule (canada is sitting at around 1%) Harper is much more concerned with reducing the deficit, which remains his last saving grace. Wars aren't great for that.

You think Harper wouldn't have joined the Iraq coalition? Really???

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It would be a waste of time trying to reargue Afghanistan. Chretien and Martin put soldiers in there, Harper changed the mission. They are both as culpable as to the damage that their poor decisions caused.

Chretien and Martin did it on stupidity and ignorance while Harper did it on principle.

Does it really matter? While I hope Demosthenes26 is correct it still appears to me that Afghanistan was a mistake that Harper appears ready to repeat in Iraq and Syria.

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So you believe all those Sunnis are just beheaders? Not my experience having worked in the area.

It that REALLY supposed to be your reply to what I posted?

I explained why this piece of nonsense...

.Hand the Kurds a few AR's and let them sweep up the mess.

... is such a piece of silly fantasy.

Do you think that "kurds and few AR's" are going to go into Sunni cities and dislodge a movement thats positioned itself as an alternative to being ruled by a rival sect? Kurds will defend their own turf, but you know what they would do if you "handed them some ARs" and asked them to remove ISIL from the positions it now occupies? They would laugh in your face....

Thats the problem... youre endorsing a solution without having even a vague understanding of the problem.

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No they wouldn't laugh, they would go out and shoot ISIS murderers. That's why they keep asking for advanced and up to date weapons. You may have heard that IS doesn't have planes. The neighbors do have planes and can take out the big stuff, as is occuring right now. The RAF is on it's way as are the Belgiun and Danish air forces. Canada may send a few F 18's. We'll let the Iraqi's do the "boots on the ground" thing.

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No they wouldn't laugh, they would go out and shoot ISIS murderers. That's why they keep asking for advanced and up to date weapons. You may have heard that IS doesn't have planes. The neighbors do have planes and can take out the big stuff, as is occuring right now. The RAF is on it's way as are the Belgiun and Danish air forces. Canada may send a few F 18's. We'll let the Iraqi's do the "boots on the ground" thing.

Like I said... they are more than happy to defend their turf, or fight with ISIS in a conventional setting. The problem is that wont do any good. ISIS is embedded in towns and cities where they have a lot of support. Attempts to go into these places militarily will result in the same kind of insurgency the US faced after the initial invasion of Iraq. Thats why the Iraqi army just walked away when ISIL entered these areas.

The neighbors do have planes and can take out the big stuff, as is occuring right now.

The "big stuff" is completely besides the point. The US easily defeated Saddams army on the battlefield during the invasion as well.... But then they spent ten years and trillions of dollars trying to dislodge insurgent groups from Iraqi cities and eventually gave up trying. And those insurgent groups the US fought for a decade? Guess what? Theyre ISIL. Same guys.

No they wouldn't laugh, they would go out and shoot ISIS murderers

Sorry this isnt a Rambo film. You dont have a clue what youre talking about.

Edited by dre
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The mistake the US made in Iraq is they fired all of Saddams army and all the Baathist's. They were the folks who knew how to keep the lights on. They became ISIS. They made the same mistake in Afg with the Mujahadeen. However they can go some way to correcting the mistake in Iraq/Syria by helping the "locals" get rid of IS.

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The mistake the US made in Iraq is they fired all of Saddams army and all the Baathist's. They were the folks who knew how to keep the lights on. They became ISIS. They made the same mistake in Afg with the Mujahadeen. However they can go some way to correcting the mistake in Iraq/Syria by helping the "locals" get rid of IS.

The locals dont care about getting rid of ISIL. To Sunnis ISIL is a lesser evil than being ruled by a rival sect (Iraqs shia central gov, or Assad).

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You have no idea what you are talking about. ISIL has no military strength or at least very little.

ISIS/ISIL is better equipped than many nations. They got all the stuff the USA left behind. Too expensive to bring back home they said.

A1 Abrams, Humbees, MPCs ect and on and on. The Prophet thanks the USA for their contribution in the fight.

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ISIS/ISIL is better equipped than many nations. They got all the stuff the USA left behind. Too expensive to bring back home they said.

A1 Abrams, Humbees, MPCs ect and on and on. The Prophet thanks the USA for their contribution in the fight.

NO... Military ISIL is not even a bug you could find to squash. They MIGHT have ONE A1 tank... They have about 30-50 soviet tanks total... some trucks... and no air force at all.

The danger ISIL poses is not that they can fight to take territory... its that they DONT HAVE TO. They more or less WALKED into Mosul supported by over a dozen different sunni baathist factions. Their strength and the reason they have taken Sunni areas so easily is that the residents want no part of the predominantly Shia governments in either Iraq or Syria.

And thats the part Rambo fans dont understand. Even if you could kill every single member of ISIL today it would not make any difference. Theres 20+ million people in Syria and Iraq combined that feel like they are being governed by their enemies. The architects of OPERATION: OH SHIT WE SOULD HAVE NOT DONE THAT didnt understand that the brutality of Saddam was supressing sectarian conflict. They didnt even have a vague idea of what they were doing, and they still dont.

They let this genie out of the bottle and their attempts to stuff it back in will turn out about as well as their idiotic move to replace Baathist rule with Iranian-backed Shia rule.

Im telling you guys this right now... And Ill bookmark it so I can show you later. Iraq and Syria will be partitioned. ISIL will get their state whether or not a bunch of retards fly over with a few planes and drop a few bombs.

Edited by dre
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...

They didnt even have a vague idea of what they were doing, and they still dont.

Spoiler Alert - A long and involved dissertation by Big Guy not meant for those who think he/she is a pain;

I believe that ISIS or ISIL is not an unknown phenomena but the remnants of the old Iraq Republican Guard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Guard_(Iraq)

This was an elite, 80,000 fighting force of Sunni nationalists who were very well trained, well financed and well experienced in warfare. When the USA attacked Iraq, the Republican Guard never confronted the USA forces and appeared to disappear with uniforms in the sand and their reputation dismissed by the West as “greatly exaggerated”.

Since that time, certain other information has surfaced; When the USA gained control of Iraq it “fired” any existing forces assuming that these seasoned warriors would ...?. There had been some preparation;

“In the Second Gulf War, before U.S. troops had entered Baghdad and according to information, the CIA agents infiltrated through the initiative of volunteers. They came into contact with members of the first and second ladder of command of the Republican Guard to ensure an influx of American troops in Baghdad without problems. In that pact, allegedly signed by Donald Rumsfeld, included transportation insurance for themselves and their families outside Iraq, large sums of money, the promise of official positions in Iraq post-invasion for those who had not committed war crimes, including U.S. residency and citizenship for some key leaders. Of course, the soldiers were unaware that their superiors had agreed the surrender of Baghdad and even less the Fedayeen, which were abandoned to their fate once the armed conflict officially ended.”

Iraq fell to the Americans, the Americans banged their swords on their shields but nobody wondered where these 80,000 seasoned, elite fighters disappeared to. I guess that the powers to be thought that they learned to grow grass or milk goats. The new USA installed Shite Iraq government refused to honour the pact made with the Republican Guard officers and eventually purged the Iraq army of all Sunni officers and soldiers.

The greatest strength of those who live in that part of the world is patience. They waited for the inevitable when the latest “invader” from the most recent Crusade lost interest and support from home. As the “infidels” lost interest and started to go home the nationalists, those who were born, lived and protected their country decided it was time to take their country back. The Sunni population in Iraq was already alienated from Baghdad, the Sunnis in Syria were already fighting Assad so there was a perfect opportunity for some experienced force which could rally the disenfranchised locals for support.

Hence ISIS appeared. These were the remnants of a very well trained elite fighting force (Republican Guard) which had an experienced military organization and the support of the local population. It struck quickly and successfully. It followed the tactics of the very successful old German blitzkrieg with the addition of local civilian support. The West was absolutely “surprised” but wrote them off as a “junior varsity” team.

Soon this junior varsity team had control of an area about the size of Iraq or Syria with the advantage that the locals were on their side. They decided to call it a Caliphate but required more soldiers. Recruiting was a problem since all of the existing “fanatics” were already part of this army.

These “dusty, turban headed, ignorant, peasant, scumbags and murderers” organized sophisticated public relations “events” in order to satisfy their needs for more soldiers. They created videotapes of their soldiers beheading, cutting the throats of or decapitating people from the West. It was a well produced show (with body microphones, good sun angle, well rehearsed dialogue and a video distribution network). Decapitating someone on video was abhorrent, sickening and effective. Most important – it was effective!

It had two favourable (for ISIS) results;

The first favourable result was that those disenfranchised Sunni Iraqis and Syrians, beaten Muslims from Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan et al, now had a winning organization that they could join and did flock to join. A bonus was the Sunni Iraq, Syrian, Somalian, (American and Canadian) and any other Muslim nation diaspora contained those who still felt a love of their homeland, could be easily recruited to join this fight.

The second and most important result was that this visual “taunting” of the West caused those civilians who had tired of war to get angry enough to again get involved. The original “Crusade” from the USA into Iraq and Afghanistan, and the reaction of the relatives of the “collateral action” from that expedition was the core of the support for the rejuvenated Iraq Republican Guard - so why not use the same method? Sure enough, the videos of beheading got the Western Power to jump in again.

Now we have all kinds of coalitions being formed, bombs from air planes only and no troops on the ground. The results of the “collateral damage” from this strategic bombing will guarantee more and more volunteers streaming to join ISIS for revenge.

Meanwhile;

Russia is consolidating its control of a land bridge to the Crimea. With the world now focused on the new war in Iraq and Syria against ISIS, the Russians are free to consolidate their hold on their new conquests.

Iran has now probably completed its nuclear program and may very well have THE BOMB. Nobody seems to care any more.

With the USA and the coalition (and probably Canada) bombing ISIS, Assad in Syria can now rearm and finally finish off that ragged group of “good rebels” who were supposed to be the future “boots on the ground” which were supposed to finish ISIS.

Israel has taken the opportunity to annex more land.

The USA air bombing is taking out oil wells and refineries in Iraq and Syria that it claims are funding ISIS (that may help Western Oil companies) .

This is a “contained war” and Canada will be sending in jet fighters which will never be in danger! Nor will all the support troops required for these fighters.

How long until this very well financed ISIS gets anti-aircraft hardware and Canadian planes are attacked and perhaps shot down?

And ... I'll leave the rest to those few who are still reading.

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