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kimmy

Indiana "Religious Freedom Restoration Act" controversy

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And more importantly, why should only white middle class Christians have the privilege of being able to just go somewhere and get service? Why should someone have to declare their sexuality and ensure that they can be served every single time they go to make a transaction somewhere? Imagine if you had to be sure that the shop you were going to wouldn't be aggressively, even violently, opposed to your white skin before you walked through the door. What a nightmare.

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How much stress did the gay couple go through in order to put a fine on that bakery? Was it worth it?

The stress? Virtually none.

They filed a complaint.

The BOLI in Oregon took over from there and prosecuted with nary any input from the complainants.

What is funny is there Go-Fund me site was removed for violating the terms of agreement.

All in all, the State of Oregon made the financial penalty too large.

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All in all, the State of Oregon made the financial penalty too large.

I agree with this. I think anyone who opens a business should be prepared, generally, to serve everyone, but their "crime" does not warrant the punishment.

Unless it was a repeat offence after being found in the wrong some time before. Even then it seems excessive.

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I have to agree. This is bordering on tyranny. The government can now force you to work against your will and against your religious beliefs by the threat of force.

Nope.

You are free to work wherever you choose.

If you wish not to serve some types of people, then you are free to choose a job that does not involve serving the public.

If you provide service to the public, you can't discriminate.

.

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...If you provide service to the public, you can't discriminate.

.

Yes you can...see gender/sex based health club membership and employment.

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Yes you can...see gender/sex based health club membership and employment.

See: Membership/Clubs vs Open to the General Public

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So we have the clash of two rights and freedoms; The freedom to take make economic decisions for yourself and the right to all public (and sometimes private) services.

Personally, if you work for an employer then you follow the policies of your employer. That should be included as part of the hiring process. If you are self employed, then you should have the freedom to cater to those who you wish to deal with and reject those with whom you do not want to interact.

I will try to use one example - I do know a personal friend who runs his own business. He had a project out for bids. He chose a bid that was not the most economical. When asked why he rejected the lowest bid he replied: "I don't like that guy. It's my money and I can spend it how I want to". I agree with him.

When you are dealing with the public, your prejudices are then suspect. To refuse to rent (or to serve) to minorities, or people with children or people with pets, or a former spouse muddies the waters. There are legitimate conditions under which you can refuse to deal with people. Would one expect that a Ukrainian from Kiev have to rent part of their house to a Ukrainian from Eastern Ukraine? How about a Palestinian renting to an obviously Hasidic Jew? Or you and/or I renting to a former spouse?

Where freedoms and rights clash, I tend to side with the individual who is making the choice - that would include the black person who will not serve or rent to whites and Francophones or Separatists who will not serve or rent to only English speaking individuals.

Let the market make that decision.

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See: Membership/Clubs vs Open to the General Public

A distinction without a difference. Pay for a cake, pay to use the treadmill.

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A distinction without a difference. Pay for a cake, pay to use the treadmill.

So as long as I can afford the green fees I should be able to play at Augusta National?

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So as long as I can afford the green fees I should be able to play at Augusta National?

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

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That's exactly what I'm talking about.

In your opinion, if I happen to be gay or black or the conservative nightmare, a gay, black, feminist, atheist; should Augusta National have to let me play because I can afford the green fees?

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Where freedoms and rights clash, I tend to side with the individual who is making the choice - that would include the black person who will not serve or rent to whites and Francophones or Separatists who will not serve or rent to only English speaking individuals.

Let the market make that decision.

If you advertise and provide service to the general public, I don't believe you can discriminate:

Gay couple evicted from their Airbnb rental by 'straight-friendly' hosts.

Guests compensated,

Host removed from Airbnb.

This is company policy, not law, but I do believe discrimination lawsuits would succeed, if necessary in such cases.

.

Edited by jacee

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In your opinion, if I happen to be gay or black or the conservative nightmare, a gay, black, feminist, atheist; should Augusta National have to let me play because I can afford the green fees?

They shouldn't have to let ANYONE play, and they shouldn't have to justify it either.

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If you advertise and provide service to the general public, I don't believe you can discriminate:

Yes you can...women's only health clubs can discriminate against male members and employees.

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Yes you can...women's only health clubs can discriminate against male members and employees.

Please see the difference between "clubs" and "public businesses."

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An interesting point. Is renting a room in your house considered public business? How about hiring waiters in a Kosher or Halal restaurant? Hiring a receptionist in a Jewish YMCA or Jewish retirement home?

To jacee - you may be correct but I suggest that those who apply and take it to court have no intention of working or staying there but are creating an issue to try to prove a point.

From the practical side, why would anybody want to eat at, or work for or stay at some place where you were not wanted? I know I might be peeved but I would sure be suspect of the food served, the work atmosphere or the security and privacy of my rental.

I remember a young man who worked in the kitchen in a restaurant where a patron was causing problems and demanded to be seated and served. The patron was seated and served but the manager did a few things (not nice things) to the meal before it left the kitchen.

I believe that forcing people to do things against their will does not create a bridge of understanding and tolerance, it only reinforces and prejudices, bigotry and misogyny.

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An interesting point. Is renting a room in your house considered public business? How about hiring waiters in a Kosher or Halal restaurant? Hiring a receptionist in a Jewish YMCA or Jewish retirement home?

Figure it out:

Businesses serving the general public.

Hiring ... people qualified for the job, whether kosher or halal.

To jacee - you may be correct but I suggest that those who apply and take it to court have no intention of working or staying there but are creating an issue to try to prove a point.

Or not.

From the practical side, why would anybody want to eat at, or work for or stay at some place where you were not wanted? I know I might be peeved but I would sure be suspect of the food served, the work atmosphere or the security and privacy of my rental.

Why would anybody want the humiliation of being refused service?

Not a small issue.

I remember a young man who worked in the kitchen in a restaurant where a patron was causing problems and demanded to be seated and served. The patron was seated and served but the manager did a few things (not nice things) to the meal before it left the kitchen.

Unruly customers are a different issue.

But what's the name of that restaurant?

I believe that forcing people to do things against their will does not create a bridge of understanding and tolerance, it only reinforces and prejudices, bigotry and misogyny.

Nobody's forcing anybody to serve the public. It's a choice.

Once you choose it, you don't get to discriminate.

.

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Nobody's forcing anybody to serve the public. It's a choice.

Once you choose it, you don't get to discriminate.

.

Many businesses absolutely do get to discriminate, as do governments. Discrimination that no one objects to happens every day. There is no difference between a baker who says he won't cater a gay wedding, and a photographer who says he won't do baby photos, or a vegan restaurant that doesn't want to cater a hunting lodge.

Their business, they get to decide what work they want to do. What their reasons are is simply irrelevant.

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To jacee - I agree with you that actions of racial, sexual or any discrimination are distasteful - but I am taking about practicality.

I enter a restaurant in a small town in Quebec. The waitress starts talking to me in French. I indicate that I do not speak French. She says, "Aller, laisser!" and waves me towards the door. I might be embarrassed but I sure would not create a fuss and demand to be seated. If I did get a seat then I certainly would wonder what was in my food.

I do know that I would never frequent that diner again but if the word spread, I suggest that if the details of the confrontation spread, the diner would get increased business from other francophones.

As to the name of the restaurant, does it matter. What do you think happens to the food of those jerks who berate waitresses, send food back to the kitchen and/or make a nuisance of themselves. They get the last laugh.

There are situations where discrimination makes common sense for all concerned.

Edited by Big Guy

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Many businesses absolutely do get to discriminate, as do governments. Discrimination that no one objects to happens every day. There is no difference between a baker who says he won't cater a gay wedding,

We don't know how to do gay cakes?

That's different.

and a photographer who says he won't do baby photos or a vegan restaurant that doesn't want to cater a hunting lodge.

If the hunting lodge wants vegan, why not?

Their business, they get to decide what work they want to do. What their reasons are is simply irrelevant.

Well their reasons can't include discrimination.

.

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To jacee - I agree with you that actions of racial, sexual or any discrimination are distasteful - but I am taking about practicality.

I enter a restaurant in a small town in Quebec. The waitress starts talking to me in French. I indicate that I do not speak French. She says, "Aller, laisser!" and waves me towards the door. I might be embarrassed but I sure would not create a fuss and demand to be seated. If I did get a seat then I certainly would wonder what was in my food.

I do know that I would never frequent that diner again but if the word spread, I suggest that if the details of the confrontation spread, the diner would get increased business from other francophones.

As to the name of the restaurant, does it matter. What do you think happens to the food of those jerks who berate waitresses, send food back to the kitchen and/or make a nuisance of themselves. They get the last laugh.

There are situations where discrimination makes common sense for all concerned.

Doesn't make it acceptable.

.

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Well their reasons can't include discrimination.

They can, and they very frequently do without anyone getting upset. Discrimination is a fact of life, it's neither possible nor rational to eliminate it.

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We don't know how to do gay cakes?

That's different.

If the hunting lodge wants vegan, why not?

Well their reasons can't include discrimination.

.

All a business needs to do is say no, they won't do it. They're not obligated to take every and all business. Restaurants,catering companies and bake shops can simply say no.

Then no one will have any grounds for any lawsuits.

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They can, and they very frequently do without anyone getting upset. Discrimination is a fact of life, it's neither possible nor rational to eliminate it.

People offer services in their area of expertise, yes.

'I don't know how to make a gay cake' ... isn't that.

.

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People offer services in their area of expertise, yes.

'I don't know how to make a gay cake' ... isn't that.

.

It isn't relevant either. Want to do it, know how to do it, whatever. A person doing the job can decide what kind of jobs they want to work on, and the reasons don't matter.

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