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Are Ontario teachers really going to Strike?

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That's cherry picking where the money goes to fit your opinion.

You think corporate welfare goes straight to the CEO? And you think all the money spent on education goes to the teacher?

I think teachers do get a raw deal because of all the administration and board. But the solution isn't to demand for the province to throw more money into education (The provinces second largest expense), it's to address the inefficiencies at the board level.

Infact, you could sell cuts to education to Teachers simply by saying "We are taking out the waste at the administration level"

All teachers have seen tons of money go into pet projects just because someone needs a new initiative to move up the ladder.

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That's cherry picking where the money goes to fit your opinion.

And you too.

You think corporate welfare goes straight to the CEO?

Sure, same place they stash the money from labour 'deregulation' (see IMF thread).

And you think all the money spent on education goes to the teacher?

No.

I think teachers do get a raw deal because of all the administration at the board level. But the solution isn't to demand for the province to throw more money into education (The provinces second largest expense), it's to address the inefficiencies at the board level.

Ah ... Now there's a challenge!

.

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That's cherry picking where the money goes to fit your opinion.

You think corporate welfare goes straight to the CEO? And you think all the money spent on education goes to the teacher?

I think teachers do get a raw deal because of all the administration at the board level. But the solution isn't to demand for the province to throw more money into education (The provinces second largest expense), it's to address the inefficiencies at the board level.

Do you honestly think the Wynne has anybody around that could do this task. We are talking about government and that is worth about two strikes against it. You add the Ontario Liberal factor and there is no chance a school board could be controlled.

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No matter who is striking, no one wins. In Ontario, there are many groups that their contracts are up this year and next and its going to get very messy in these talks. Humans, being humans will fight for their pay cheque, just asked the workers from the former Navistar, who still fighting the company for pensions and severance after the company shut down the plant in 2009! Everyone should just agreed to keep what they have and wait until Ontario debt is in better shape which the government says 2017, I believe. Do we really want a reenactment of the Harris era towards workers????

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Because they're in the public sector, they're also recession proof.

Teachers are not under paid IMHO, but proper pay is a subjective term. What you've done is imply that people that could go into a REAL market based industry but choose to teach are reflective of the entire industry. They're not.

Toronto has many schools that are half empty. Where the demand is, are in the suburbs in the outer GTA (Peel, Halton, Durham etc). And many spiffy new school are being built in response.

The public sector competes with the private sector for highly skilled workers, it is all the same market. Further while not everyone who goes into private industry becomes rich, anyone with enough drive to do two degrees and is willing to sacrifice the time certainly can. What usually ends up happening is people TURN DOWN promotions because they don't want to miss out on their social life.

You are grossly mistaken, when they throw up a condo where houses use to be, you think no one is living in there with kids?

Sick days have been stripped down to 10 days which is nothing if you really get sick. I don't know any professional job absent of sick days. You might say the guy flipping burgers. But Teacher's aren't of that background they are far more educated, you have to compare them to similar groups.

Carrying sick days is existent throughout much of the public sector and often because what happens is people are inclined to not get sick yearly for short period but rather get sick in one long period once a decade. Ie. fall and break your hip, or shock, get cancer or a heart attack. 10 days ain't shit if you are on chemo or if you had a double bypass, that is why the union negotiated carrying them forward, because the most common diseases teachers get, tend to make them sick for longer periods.

Teacher's pay a huge chunk of their salary into pension and it is not government funded. In fact it was the Harris government WHO FORCED the teacher's pension plan to invest its money which it does creating and supporting hundreds of thousands of jobs in the province. While no pension fund is fully funded, not even PRIVATE SECTOR MANULIFE FUNDS, this is because the funds themselves generate a return! Its not "Taxpayer" money, as if teacher's aren't tax payers. Teacher's can't get EI, so how about they stop paying ei to be fair?

I can't speak to bc teachers, I am speaking of Ontario teacher's. Ontario teacher's don't have DB, they run their own pension fund, which is the largest investor and fund in the nation.

Teacher's aren't eligible for EI, and when you have no contract and aren't working, that sounds alot like unemployment to me.

Teachers only have 2 months of vacation because the provinces is too cheap to pay them another 2 months salary.

Sorry, I don't have a clue who Jack Ma is or what Alibaba does. But it must be important to you.

OK, you are going to have to back up some of you statements with hard data. The biggie here is sick days and pensions. No, not everyone in private work gets sick days much less more than what teachers get. Having said that, I actually do not begrudge a teacher sick days. They are exposed to every bug that children get. What I do begrudge is the ability to carry sick days forward.

Now for your whopper. Yes, teachers do contribute to their pensions, but no, they do not fund it entirely. As a taxpayer, I am a bit shocked that you would not be aware of that. The best example I can give you is for the BC teachers. They contribute about 14% of their wages to their defined benefit pension and the taxpayers contribute another 16%. Plus, the taxpayers guarantee that there will be enough money in the pension fund no matter what happens in the markets. Can you show me an example in the private sector of this? Defined benefit pensions simply are obsolete anywhere but in the public sector. And they should be obsolete there also.

Can you please give us an example of what government benefits teachers are not eligible for? And for the love of God, please do not trot out EI because teachers are not laid off in the summer. THEY ARE ON HOLIDAYS. So, what are they not eligible for? CPP, OAP, welfare?

Finally, there is you statement "Who in their right mind who (sic) would want to teach right now?" Again, could you please provide facts that show that there is a shortage of teachers, which is what your statement implies. Last time I looked, there were dozens of fresh young teachers coming out of teacher school for every one available job. Are all of the shiny young minds not right? Are they mentally challenged when they graduate teacher school? If that is what you are saying, then I think you will be getting a severe scolding from one Young Socialist.

There indeed a shortage of highly skileld teacher. The internet is a wonderful resource, and if you cannot find that, then you need to practice.

Yes there are alot of new teacher's coming out the pipeline, many are highly skilled and talented. But when they go start supply teaching, they meet other teacher's learn of the low salaries, poor working conditions, and how they'll lose most their hearing by 60 because of decades being spent in loud classroom, how students can assault them and they have to sit their and take it and how a single false accusation can get them fired, imprisoned etc. Oh and you cannot even record yourself to prove you didn't commit a crime because its invasion of student's privacy and how the job has been degraded from a good career to a dead end job. so what happens, they leave.... in droves. The creame of the crop exit. Those who come from hard family situations and cannot afford to switch careers or cannot cut it in private sector stay.

There isn't a teacher shortage. You can always find someone willing to go infront of the classroom, even the janitor. There is a HIGHLY SKILLED teacher shortage. The best teacher's are being sucked up by the private sector.

As for the proof:

"

Overwhelmed Canadian Teachers May Be Quitting in Droves Improve working conditions to keep new teachers from leaving the profession, says expert"

"Canada’s education system is in crisis, says an education expert, and as a result teachers may be quitting the profession at an alarming rate. Although exact figures are not available, Jon Bradley, an associate professor at McGill University’s Faculty of Education, estimates at least 30 percent of Canadian teachers are leaving the profession within their first five years on the job, "

Bullying from parents, false accusations from students, a lack of merit-based pay, few support resources, stifling curriculum requirements, and overwhelming workloads are just some of the reasons teachers are leaving, says Bradley.

Well that will surely get the best and brightest.

“I believe it is in a crisis. I believe it’s being held together, you know, by a string and a prayer. But it’s in crisis, and we ignore the crisis at our peril.”

Bradley notes that the high turnover of new teachers is not only costly, it takes away from the learning experience of students who benefit most from teachers who “hit their stride” after 7-10 years on the job.

According to a 2006–2008 study on Ontario teachers leaving the profession, leading factors cited from those dissatisfied with their job were: workload and stress issues, class sizes, issues with school administrators or local school board policies, and government educational policies.

“The politics, paperwork, meaningless “training,” waste of time and resources, and over/under-involved parents are wearing teachers out,” wrote one survey respondent.

“The workload on teachers continues to increase every year,” wrote another. “There is always extra administrative work that takes away from teaching time. There is also extra testing and reporting… on and on it goes every year.”

Extra Work, But No Extra Pay

Bradley says teachers are increasingly faced with large class sizes that often include children with special needs or learning disabilities.

On top of the day-to-day challenges of meeting basic curriculum requirements, they must also spend endless after-hours marking, preparing lessons, leading and supervising extra-curricular activities and sports teams, and attending meetings or training—all without receiving extra pay.

“Can you imagine telling a nurse or a doctor, ‘Your day is from 9–4, and, oh, by the way, we expect you to do a clinic at night for free,’” says Bradley. “Because that’s what teachers do.”

Introducing merit-based pay for extra hours and exceptional work, as well as allowing teachers more flexibility and creativity within the curriculum, and cutting back on work that is not teaching-related would do much to reduce teacher burnout, says Bradley.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/canada/overwhelmed-canadian-teachers-quitting-in-droves-350533.html

Teaching might look rosy from the other side, but it isn't at all.

Studies have shown as many as 30 per cent of new teachers leave the profession after just five years. Heavy workloads and a lack of resources are chief among their concerns, according to a national poll by the Canadian Teachers Federation.
Education Minister Gerard Kennedy said the province views teachers leaving the system as an issue of inadequate preparation and support. "As a one-in-three rate, its a $30-million problem," said Kennedy. The problems remain, however, and the college has pegged the proportion of those at risk of leaving within a few years at as high as 18 per cent.Increasingly, retention of these career newcomers is moving to the top of the education agenda nationwide. Baby boomers are retiring and school boards across the country are clamouring to bring fresh new college graduates into their classrooms."This is the beginning of a teacher shortage," said Mary-Lou Donnelly, president of the Nova Scotia Teachers' Union.

https://www.greaterteachers.com/ednews19.php

So who do you think the 18% in the first year and 30% over 5 years is leaving. Do you think it is the best ones who are saying, you know I can do better than 100k in 10 years and crummy benefits in a dead end job. I could go become an accountant and make an average of 130k in 5 years with far less stress and workload. Or is it the bottom of the barrel who can't cut it in private sector? If they leave they know they can't find a job, so of course they'll stay in teaching.

The low wages and bad benefits are just the most effective way to cull out the best teacher's. And its quiet effective. Our education system is going down the drain, when you run out the best people, you aren't going to be putting the best infront of your kids. And when you put less than the best, you cannot expect the best results. Employers don't care, they'll hire the kid from china or finland whose parents spared no expense in educating their child and who turned out better and can do math unlike your canadian child, who can barely add because his teacher wasn't that smart, didn't grasp the concepts as well as the teacher you ran out the system with low pay, low benefits, bad working conditions etc.

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Hernaday,

Wow, where to start. Let us begin with the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund. Google it along with the word contributions and you will see that all teacher contributions are matched by the government. And do you even have a clue what the difference is between define contribution and defined benefit pension means? Please believe me, all teachers get DB, but if you want to campaign for them to have to switch to DC, I will back you 100%.

Now onto the humorous. Could you provide one documented case of a teacher losing her hearing as a direct result of noise in the workplace. I know, I know, we can ask you for documentations or citations all we want and you will continue your diatribes without any trivial matters such as proof.

Teachers are in actual fact eligible for EI, but only if they are unemployed, which plenty are. If the are on holidays, then they do not deserve EI any more than you or when we take holidays. And did you really say teachers "only" have two months holidays. Really?

Look, it would be easy peasy to tear apart pretty much everything you wrote, but that would be boring. At the end of the day, your contribution to the thread is that teachers should be given pretty much whatever pay raise they think they deserve, or so it would appear. I hope you are in the minority if you are a resident of Ontario. Out here in BC, our duly elected government simply said no to the BCTF During their prolonged strike/negotiations last year and I hope other provincial governments took note. But our province has a balanced budget and one of the lowest income tax levels and really, what other province would want to offer that to its citizens?

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Questions....is it true that retiring teachers do not get health care benefits , other than what every other Ontarians get under OHIP and they have to pay their own? Do all retiring teachers get the same pensions or does it depend on the board in which they are working for?

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Topaz, generally teachers (once retired) are no longer on the "company" benefit plan. They have the access to private plans that every other citizen does. As for pensions, those are covered under individual CBAs so not all teachers collect the same but every one is still far more generous than any even remotely similar private pension plan (see: defined benefit vs defined contribution).

Now when a teacher has worked under multiple CBAs, I can't say that I know how their monthly amount(s) are calculated - whether they collect all of the various pensions at pro rated amounts or they collect just the amount specified in the last active one.

I currently collect a small pension from my wife's union (Alberta nurses) and, while small, it is defined benefit and will continue until 15 years after my death and be paid to my kids. In all likelihood, it will pay out more in gross income than my corporate one which is considerably larger just due to the DB factor (friggin amazing!).

edit->sp

Edited by Hydraboss

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Teachers are in actual fact eligible for EI, but only if they are unemployed, which plenty are. If the are on holidays, then they do not deserve EI any more than you or when we take holidays. And did you really say teachers "only" have two months holidays. Really?

Teachers are not "unemployed" for two months - their salaries are paid a 1/12 annual income each month so they are actually paid for all 12 months.

Not that he would grasp that.

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Thanks Michael. I seem to have missed that whole portion of the discussion.

So Mikedavid00....uhm...Socialist thinks that teachers have stress levels that make all other jobs "pale" in comparison? Really?

Oh Socialist....where ARE you?????

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Teachers are not "unemployed" for two months - their salaries are paid a 1/12 annual income each month so they are actually paid for all 12 months.

Not that he would grasp that.

Sorry, I did not elocute that very well. Teachers are not laid off during the summer months, they are on holidays. If they choose to get paid over 10 months rather than 12, that is their choice, but they are not laid off. If they cannot get a permanent job after the end of school in June, then they should be eligible for EI as they are unemployed at that point.

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In the last couple of weeks, we have found out that Young Socialist believes that all older teachers are incompetent and are ill prepared to teach students in the modern classroom. He has also cast aside all teachers in the private school system due to the fact that he believes them all to be corrupt and unprofessional, answering only to their masters, not to the students. Now it turns out that Hermesdays believes that all young teachers are pretty much stupid because only the dullest of university grads would go into teaching with the brighter grads making hundreds of thousands of tax free dollars in the private sector.

Soooo, if the two biggest teacher cheerleaders on the forum have written off 100% of all teachers for various reasons, could someone explain to me why any teacher in any province is deserving of a raise?

Edited by Pct2017

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Hernaday,

Wow, where to start. Let us begin with the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund. Google it along with the word contributions and you will see that all teacher contributions are matched by the government. And do you even have a clue what the difference is between define contribution and defined benefit pension means? Please believe me, all teachers get DB, but if you want to campaign for them to have to switch to DC, I will back you 100%.

Now onto the humorous. Could you provide one documented case of a teacher losing her hearing as a direct result of noise in the workplace. I know, I know, we can ask you for documentations or citations all we want and you will continue your diatribes without any trivial matters such as proof.

Teachers are in actual fact eligible for EI, but only if they are unemployed, which plenty are. If the are on holidays, then they do not deserve EI any more than you or when we take holidays. And did you really say teachers "only" have two months holidays. Really?

Look, it would be easy peasy to tear apart pretty much everything you wrote, but that would be boring. At the end of the day, your contribution to the thread is that teachers should be given pretty much whatever pay raise they think they deserve, or so it would appear. I hope you are in the minority if you are a resident of Ontario. Out here in BC, our duly elected government simply said no to the BCTF During their prolonged strike/negotiations last year and I hope other provincial governments took note. But our province has a balanced budget and one of the lowest income tax levels and really, what other province would want to offer that to its citizens?

Your post is full of lies, that being said BC is owned by the chinese and is about to be the next province of china, of course you have a balanced budget, if you didn't the emperor of china would slice your pee pee off.

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Your post is full of lies, that being said BC is owned by the chinese and is about to be the next province of china, of course you have a balanced budget, if you didn't the emperor of china would slice your pee pee off.

Wow. Can't argue with that amazing post. Guess we all should give up now. hernanday just countered everybody's point of view with an unflappable logic.

When in doubt. Call somebody a liar and make a racist post. That trumps all

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Wow. Can't argue with that amazing post. Guess we all should give up now. hernanday just countered everybody's point of view with an unflappable logic.

When in doubt. Call somebody a liar and make a racist post. That trumps all

Works for alot of tools on this board. Usually has muslim undertones but.....new thread.....

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People like PCT don't understand the issues teachers deal with every day. Poverty is making our jobs even more difficult. Mental health is becoming a big issue for many teachers as stress and burnout are everywhere in the profession.

This is what we face. The bashers won't want to read this though. It goes against their bashing handbook.

http://www.imagine-action.ca/Initiatives.aspx?c=10〈=EN&set=1

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People like PCT don't understand the issues teachers deal with every day. Poverty is making our jobs even more difficult.

Are you trying to say that something has changed or that poverty has always been with us and it makes teaching more difficult ?

The latter statement is an obvious truism, and the former statement needs some kind of evidence.

Mental health is becoming a big issue for many teachers as stress and burnout are everywhere in the profession.

The same thing applies to that statement.

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In the last couple of weeks, we have found out that Young Socialist believes that all older teachers are incompetent and are ill prepared to teach students in the modern classroom. He has also cast aside all teachers in the private school system due to the fact that he believes them all to be corrupt and unprofessional, answering only to their masters, not to the students. Now it turns out that Hermesdays believes that all young teachers are pretty much stupid because only the dullest of university grads would go into teaching with the brighter grads making hundreds of thousands of tax free dollars in the private sector.

Soooo, if the two biggest teacher cheerleaders on the forum have written off 100% of all teachers for various reasons, could someone explain to me why any teacher in any province is deserving of a raise?

Parents may think the teachers striking is the problem. No, it's the result of chronic underfunding of Ontario education.This is the OSSTF fighting back. Just like how the BCTF fought back. Why? Because we care about the learners in our classrooms. That's why. BC teachers know what we are going through in Ontario. We have solidarity. We got each others' backs.

CDTk3mzUEAACR53.jpg

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Hernaday,

Wow, where to start. Let us begin with the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund. Google it along with the word contributions and you will see that all teacher contributions are matched by the government. And do you even have a clue what the difference is between define contribution and defined benefit pension means? Please believe me, all teachers get DB, but if you want to campaign for them to have to switch to DC, I will back you 100%.

Now onto the humorous. Could you provide one documented case of a teacher losing her hearing as a direct result of noise in the workplace. I know, I know, we can ask you for documentations or citations all we want and you will continue your diatribes without any trivial matters such as proof.

Teachers are in actual fact eligible for EI, but only if they are unemployed, which plenty are. If the are on holidays, then they do not deserve EI any more than you or when we take holidays. And did you really say teachers "only" have two months holidays. Really?

Look, it would be easy peasy to tear apart pretty much everything you wrote, but that would be boring. At the end of the day, your contribution to the thread is that teachers should be given pretty much whatever pay raise they think they deserve, or so it would appear. I hope you are in the minority if you are a resident of Ontario. Out here in BC, our duly elected government simply said no to the BCTF During their prolonged strike/negotiations last year and I hope other provincial governments took note. But our province has a balanced budget and one of the lowest income tax levels and really, what other province would want to offer that to its citizens?

Here PCT; share this with hydraboss. This article would fit in perfectly with your teacher bashing agenda. Read it and see how silly you really look in the eyes of outstanding progressive educators. You want nonsense, here you go. Right up your alley.

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/71441#.VTvVN42WCfg.twitter

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Parents may think the teachers striking is the problem. No, it's the result of chronic underfunding of Ontario education

Cite please. Obviously you are going to advocate for teachers, but for this thread to be anything better than a duel of pleas to emotion we need facts.

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