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Baltimore Riots

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I guess the answer is to go into predominately white areas and smash those up.

Sure, if you threw rocks through my window, I wouldn't kick over my garden gnomes and torch my garden shed.

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This isn't "a few bad apples", this is a cultural problem within the police.

I was referring specifically to the "nickel rides", not violent crime in general. Not counting Freddie Gray, there's two dead, two left crippled, numerous less severe injuries, ongoing lawsuits, and millions of dollars in compensation paid out to victims by the city of Baltimore. And no police have been charge or disciplined for any of these injuries. These lawsuits have all been settled without any admission of liability by the cops.

So you said, but I (and most of civil society) will tolerate isolated police misconduct, with the expectation that those involved will be punished when found guilty of committing crimes, versus widespread anarchy demonstrated by the rioters......frankly, I'd rather the "cultural problems" associated with the police, then the "cultural problems" associated with those that loot and burn down their own community.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. Are you actually in agreement that unjust authority is worth of a revolt?

You bet if all other options are exhausted, but deciding what is "unjust" is subjective to ones own point of view.

What I'm arguing is first off, that that rage is completely justified. The cops have been doing this crap for a long time with no remorse and no consequences. How can people not be angry over this?

I get that, but I differentiate between what ones finds widespread and what one finds isolated.

And secondly, that violence seems to be the only thing that gets results. They've had peaceful protests, nothing changed. They went to the polls, nothing changed. They went to the courts and won, and nothing changed.

They smashed and looted and burned, and suddenly the whole country was paying attention.

And what results did the Baltimore rioters achieve? I would say galvanize opinion of those that support or oppose their "plight".......but for most, I think the channel was just changed.

There's only one reason we're talking about this. There's only one reason news cameras from all over America were in Baltimore. There's only one reason the state investigators and the federal government got involved. It's right there in the thread title.

People saw the picture of the burning store on the news and it shocked them into action.

Do you think anything will change and should they, the people of Baltimore, now feel justice was served?

50 years ago, people saw these pictures and it shocked them into taking action.

You mean pictures of peaceful protesters, not rioters, having their skulls thumped? Without a doubt......

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I once had an acquaintance who worked in the emergency room at a hospital in Edmonton's north side. They said it was very frustrating watching the same people show up at emergency over and over. People who had drank crap trying to get drunk. People punched or kicked or stabbed in drunken brawls. People sick from eating or smoking something trying to get high. People-- poor people, disproportionately native-- with trouble that traced back to their own stupidity. And they'd see the same faces over and over, and think "I wonder what Joe drank this time," and they'd see unfamiliar natives come in and expect that they too had been involved in some kind of ill-fated drinking party and usually that was correct. And they said that after seeing the same thing over and over again, it was becoming hard not to be prejudiced, and hard not to wonder "what's the point of helping Joe when he's just going to be back here again next week?"

And I have no doubt that cops feel the same kind of frustration.

-k

Had you and yours suffered multiple generations of genocidal policies inflicted by the federal and provincial governments and Canadian citizens, you and yours would be exactly the same, Kimmy.

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So you said, but I (and most of civil society) will tolerate isolated police misconduct, with the expectation that those involved will be punished when found guilty of committing crimes, versus widespread anarchy demonstrated by the rioters......frankly, I'd rather the "cultural problems" associated with the police, then the "cultural problems" associated with those that loot and burn down their own community.

You mean pictures of peaceful protesters, not rioters, having their skulls thumped? Without a doubt......

This is where the power of the Media has pushed this false agenda. Yes there are bad cops, but how many of these cop-abuse-of-power have happened in the last year? And how many peaceful, non-abusive incidents have occurred? Like every time a citizen has any interaction with a cop in the last year and the cop acted properly, whether the citizen was arrested, pulled over, or questioned, etc.

Thousands of such peaceful interactions every day for the last year across the U.S.(like maybe over 30,000 a day), multiply by 365. Even incidents where the citizen was abusive, violent, caught red handed breaking the law, and freaking out about it because they're complete idiots. But the Media doesn't look at any of that. No, they focus in and plaster it over every channel in the universe 7 or 8 incidents in the last year. And idiots that believe everything the Media tells them go out rioting. It's kind of sad and funny at the same time.

Reasonable people realize that imperfect cops are preferable over those cultural problems associated with thugs and rioters burning down their competitor's businesses. But reasonable people are getting rare.

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Imagine that. A white middle class guy is willing to tolerate "isolated police misconduct," which is a lovely euphemism for kimmy's phrase "extrajudicial killings." Of course you're willing to tolerate it. You're not who they're profiling and targeting.

Forget that point though, you're stating in no uncertain terms that you're willing to tolerate murderers who beat and kill innocent unarmed people who've never faced a legal trial. That's what you're saying you tolerate. I suggest that tolerating this is a sign of sociopathy.

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Imagine that. A white middle class guy is willing to tolerate "isolated police misconduct," which is a lovely euphemism for kimmy's phrase "extrajudicial killings." Of course you're willing to tolerate it. You're not who they're profiling and targeting.

I'm not "middle class"......likewise "extrajudicial killings" would imply with State sanction, which is not the case.

Forget that point though, you're stating in no uncertain terms that you're willing to tolerate murderers who beat and kill innocent unarmed people who've never faced a legal trial. That's what you're saying you tolerate. I suggest that tolerating this is a sign of sociopathy.

Where did I say that?

I (and most of civil society) will tolerate isolated police misconduct, with the expectation that those involved will be punished when found guilty of committing crimes, versus widespread anarchy demonstrated by the rioters

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You really don't get it, do you? They're not held accountable until people start burning the city to the ground. That's the only time things change.

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This is where the power of the Media has pushed this false agenda. Yes there are bad cops, but how many of these cop-abuse-of-power have happened in the last year? And how many peaceful, non-abusive incidents have occurred? Like every time a citizen has any interaction with a cop in the last year and the cop acted properly, whether the citizen was arrested, pulled over, or questioned, etc.

Bad news sells.........

Reasonable people realize that imperfect cops are preferable over those cultural problems associated with thugs and rioters burning down their competitor's businesses. But reasonable people are getting rare.

What I've always wondered, is to why the so called Ghetto Defendants that feel we live in a Fascist police state, controlled by the rich and powerful, that feel others rioting is justified, don't join their comrades and knock the whole thing down and replace it with something they deem better......at what point do they fish or cut bait?

Until then, let them eat pot brownies....... ;)

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You really don't get it, do you? They're not held accountable until people start burning the city to the ground. That's the only time things change.

No, I don't........when does the revolution start?

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No, I don't........when does the revolution start?

What I've always wondered, is to why the so called Ghetto Defendants that feel we live in a Fascist police state, controlled by the rich and powerful, that feel others rioting is justified, don't join their comrades and knock the whole thing down and replace it with something they deem better......at what point do they fish or cut bait?

Certainly, revolutions happen. As to 'when', it's hard to say I guess. It's often not obvious until after.

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So you said, but I (and most of civil society) will tolerate isolated police misconduct, with the expectation that those involved will be punished when found guilty of committing crimes, versus widespread anarchy demonstrated by the rioters.

False choice.

.....frankly, I'd rather the "cultural problems" associated with the police, then the "cultural problems" associated with those that loot and burn down their own community.

What makes you think they are different problems?

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This is where the power of the Media has pushed this false agenda. Yes there are bad cops, but how many of these cop-abuse-of-power have happened in the last year?

How many is too many?

And how many peaceful, non-abusive incidents have occurred? Like every time a citizen has any interaction with a cop in the last year and the cop acted properly, whether the citizen was arrested, pulled over, or questioned, etc .Thousands of such peaceful interactions every day for the last year across the U.S.(like maybe over 30,000 a day), multiply by 365. Even incidents where the citizen was abusive, violent, caught red handed breaking the law, and freaking out about it because they're complete idiots. But the Media doesn't look at any of that. No, they focus in and plaster it over every channel in the universe 7 or 8 incidents in the last year. And idiots that believe everything the Media tells them go out rioting. It's kind of sad and funny at the same time.

Yep, it's a big mystery why the media doesn't report more on cops who do the bare minimum of what society expects of them. :rolleyes:

Also LOL at the idea that there are 7 or 8 incidents of police brutality in a year. I'd be shocked if that wasn't the hourly rate.

Reasonable people realize that imperfect cops are preferable over those cultural problems associated with thugs and rioters burning down their competitor's businesses. But reasonable people are getting rare.

Reasonable people don't buy into bullshit false choices like this.

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What makes you think they are different problems?

Aside from the fact that it's not a different problem, Derek's comment is absurd. It tries to paint property damage as worse than murdering innocent people. It's like the time I asked Shady what's more violent, broken windows or killing an unarmed person. These conservatives are so damned confused that they'll actually argue that breaking windows is worse than killing unarmed people. And they wonder why #blacklivesmatter is a thing. When you value windows and cars more than the lives of innocent people, there's a problem. Edited by cybercoma

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Aside from the fact that it's not a different problem, Derek's comment is absurd. It tries to paint property damage as worse than murdering innocent people. It's like the time I asked Shady what's more violent, broken windows or killing an unarmed person. These conservatives are so damned confused that they'll actually argue that breaking windows is worse than killing unarmed people. And they wonder why #blacklivesmatter is a thing. When you value windows and cars more than the lives of innocent people, there's a problem.

I didn't think they are confused about it at all. It's pretty clear that valuing property over life* is a bedrock tenant of the right.

*unless it's a fetus, but once that thing is out, then meh

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So you said, but I (and most of civil society) will tolerate isolated police misconduct, with the expectation that those involved will be punished when found guilty of committing crimes,

But why would people expect that?

One of the things that was significant about the Braidwood Inquiry is that we got to see first-hand the lengths that the cops will go to stick up for their own and whitewash incidents. The "Blue Code" is real, and the chances of police being charged at all, let alone found guilty, are exceedingly slim. The situation is even worse in Baltimore, because of Maryland's "Law Enforcement Officer's Bill of Rights".

Already in this incident we've seen that the "switchblade" was actually a legal pocket-knife, and we've seen the police produce a fake witness who supposedly claimed that Gray's injuries were self-inflicted, and know we know that this "witness" was on the other side of a metal partition and was only in the van for the final few minutes of the trip, long after Gray was already known to be in medical crisis. Do you doubt in the least that this was going to get whitewashed before the state prosecutor got involved?

versus widespread anarchy demonstrated by the rioters......frankly, I'd rather the "cultural problems" associated with the police, then the "cultural problems" associated with those that loot and burn down their own community.

Why is it "versus"? It's not a choice between one or the other. It's not like police misconduct is what's keeping riots from breaking out. It's rather the opposite. By choosing to accept "cultural problems" within the police, you're choosing to accept riots as well. If people had any faith that police misconduct would actually be prosecuted, there wouldn't be rioting in the streets.

And what results did the Baltimore rioters achieve? I would say galvanize opinion of those that support or oppose their "plight".......but for most, I think the channel was just changed.

What have they achieved? Well, they got outside investigators and prosecutors brought in to handle a situation that otherwise would have been whitewashed.

They've got widespread media attention for "nickel rides" and the Baltimore PD's crappy track record in general, as well as for Maryland's "LEOBR".

Do you think anything will change and should they, the people of Baltimore, now feel justice was served?

Will anything change?

Well, I would think that the next time a cop thinks about giving somebody the "nickel ride", he might wonder to himself "Will I be the next cop with his face on the cover of USA Today? Will I be the guy who touches off riots that get this city burned down? Will I be doing prison time? Maybe this isn't worth it."

This practice has been a big joke to the police, and clearly they're not laughing anymore.

You mean pictures of peaceful protesters, not rioters, having their skulls thumped? Without a doubt......

It wasn't happy black-people with signs that got federal troops sent to Alabama, it was gruesome photos of police brutality. And it wasn't the peaceful protestors with signs who got state and federal investigators sent to Baltimore either.

Do you honestly think state and federal investigators would be involve if violence hadn't broken out?

-k

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Will anything change?

Well, I would think that the next time a cop thinks about giving somebody the "nickel ride", he might wonder to himself "Will I be the next cop with his face on the cover of USA Today? Will I be the guy who touches off riots that get this city burned down? Will I be doing prison time? Maybe this isn't worth it."

-k

Unfortunately the same goes for this that goes for other kinds of crimes. People don't commit crimes thinking they will be caught. In that moment, cops who are so unethical—and to put it bluntly, stupid—are still going to do it.

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So you said, but I (and most of civil society) will tolerate isolated police misconduct, with the expectation that those involved will be punished when found guilty of committing crimes,

I suppose we all would, but the facts suggest , and history, that this is a pipe dream.

Apparently we may start seeing the pendulum come back. I wont hoild my breath.

versus widespread anarchy demonstrated by the rioters......frankly, I'd rather the "cultural problems" associated with the police, then the "cultural problems" associated with those that loot and burn down their own community.

Ah i see.

So burning down a place you will never go see is really bad , versus having your rights violated by a cop which is ya know.....OK.

There is a disconnect there.

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Unfortunately the same goes for this that goes for other kinds of crimes. People don't commit crimes thinking they will be caught. In that moment, cops who are so unethicaland to put it bluntly, stupidare still going to do it.

don't want 5o be treated badly? Don't break the law!

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But why would people expect that?

One of the things that was significant about the Braidwood Inquiry is that we got to see first-hand the lengths that the cops will go to stick up for their own and whitewash incidents. The "Blue Code" is real, and the chances of police being charged at all, let alone found guilty, are exceedingly slim. The situation is even worse in Baltimore, because of Maryland's "Law Enforcement Officer's Bill of Rights".

Most people have either never had an experience with the police, and for those that have, not one that resulted in violence........

As to the "Blue Code", how is that different from any other collective organization of people? Are political parties, bankers/investors, farmers, public/private sector unions, the military, healthcare, organized crime, business both big and small etc any different, in that once faced with outside intervention or interaction, those of the like mind will circle the wagons to protect their own interests.......

Already in this incident we've seen that the "switchblade" was actually a legal pocket-knife, and we've seen the police produce a fake witness who supposedly claimed that Gray's injuries were self-inflicted, and know we know that this "witness" was on the other side of a metal partition and was only in the van for the final few minutes of the trip, long after Gray was already known to be in medical crisis. Do you doubt in the least that this was going to get whitewashed before the state prosecutor got involved?

It very well could have, but is successful criminal prosecution of a police officer a result of a riot?

Why is it "versus"? It's not a choice between one or the other. It's not like police misconduct is what's keeping riots from breaking out. It's rather the opposite. By choosing to accept "cultural problems" within the police, you're choosing to accept riots as well. If people had any faith that police misconduct would actually be prosecuted, there wouldn't be rioting in the streets.

Is that a fact? How many young black males are killed a year by police versus other young black males? Do you honestly think for one minute if policing, even bad policing, was pulled from such communities for just one week, that there would still be a community left standing?

What have they achieved? Well, they got outside investigators and prosecutors brought in to handle a situation that otherwise would have been whitewashed.

They've got widespread media attention for "nickel rides" and the Baltimore PD's crappy track record in general, as well as for Maryland's "LEOBR".

Again, how many cops are convicted every year in the United States, and of those convictions, are the direct result of a riot?

Well, I would think that the next time a cop thinks about giving somebody the "nickel ride", he might wonder to himself "Will I be the next cop with his face on the cover of USA Today? Will I be the guy who touches off riots that get this city burned down? Will I be doing prison time? Maybe this isn't worth it."

This practice has been a big joke to the police, and clearly they're not laughing anymore.

Does the fear of public shaming prevent other crimes? Is so, it would seem, by simply posting a criminal's picture in the media we could reduce the instances of theft, rape, murder etc......

It wasn't happy black-people with signs that got federal troops sent to Alabama, it was gruesome photos of police brutality. And it wasn't the peaceful protestors with signs who got state and federal investigators sent to Baltimore either.

Do you honestly think state and federal investigators would be involve if violence hadn't broken out?

-k

Again, where did MLK advocate violence and criminal behavior? Riots don't result in legislation gained from pressure by the silent majority.......

As to your question, I have no idea, but I do know a riot is not the prerequisite for involvement in any investigation by County/State/Federal investigators......I would suggest that the vast majority of said investigations are started devoid of people trashing their own community.

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I suppose we all would, but the facts suggest , and history, that this is a pipe dream.

Apparently we may start seeing the pendulum come back. I wont hoild my breath.

Right, but why would the pendulum swing back when only a very few are pushing it, with most indifferent or opposed to its so called revision.

Ah i see.

So burning down a place you will never go see is really bad , versus having your rights violated by a cop which is ya know.....OK.

There is a disconnect there.

What disconnect though? I, like most, wouldn't burn down our own communities nor put ourselves in a position to interact with police, let alone, have our rights withheld by them.......seems rather simple.

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Certainly, revolutions happen. As to 'when', it's hard to say I guess. It's often not obvious until after.

Sure, but for a revolution to occur there must be an abject motivation for the group of would be revolutionaries to exalt self sacrifice.......none is forth coming among these types, nor would their cause generate a groundswell of public support......but then why would the majority respect them, when they demonstrate little to no self-respect for themselves?

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And what's with this wild eyed revolution talk? So there's trouble in paradise, and the first thing to some people's mind is kill whitey? We've got some pretty extremist types on this board after all.

Third world problems: decades of civil war taking a nation back to dirt huts, with pregnant mothers being slashed open, children tortured and raped repeatedly in front of their parents(I could go on for pages with this depravity but I think you get the point), and the government won't stop it because there's no government. First world problems: a few times a year out of hundreds of thousands of cop interaction, a black citizen in the US gets killed.

Yeah, we need to overthrow the government.

Edited by sharkman

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U.S. law enforcement shoots and kills about 400 Americans each year.....even white people. American citizens kill far more of each other.

No U.S. revolution is coming...except in the wild imaginations of some Canadians who watch too much American television.

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