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Big Guy

Liberal Tax Plan

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This is the standard argument against such measures, and it's echoed everywhere around the world. Realistically, however, it rings a little hollow. For the vast vast majority of people, a 4% increase to their tax burden is not going to cause them to uproot. Things like friends, children, grandchildren etc will all get in the way of such sentiments. Many of these folks also rely on their local/domestic business to continue making this sort of money.

Add to it that you have to find somewhere you could relocate to permanently and happily and it's not as simple a decision as it sounds.

I agree with your point about people. But we have seen that businesses have no such emotional attachment.

We pay a percentage of our income. Most of us pay a provincial sales tax, We all pay the GST.

At what point does it become obvious that the people cannot pay any more?

We are all basically giving up half our pay for social services that are getting more expensive.

Health care and education of course are a necessity and would never dream of ending it. But what is bothering me is that I am wondering if any government in Canada will ever see that there is only one tax payer and we are doing are share. When will our elected officials do theirs?

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I agree with your point about people. But we have seen that businesses have no such emotional attachment.

Corporate taxes are a different issue altogether and not particularly relevant for a personal income tax discussion.

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I am glad that the three parties are beginning to state their positions. I hope that by the time the election actually takes place, the electorate will have a clear idea of what each party stands for. This first declaration by the Liberals is a good indicator of their fiscal policy and their approach to child care is also interesting. I am looking forward to their stand on International issues, military, Arctic, federal vs provincial powers and responsibilities, environment, Senate, etc.

If the trend continues, it looks like the Conservatives will continue to the right, the NDP to the left and the Liberals in the center. It will be interesting to see if it is center-left or center-right.

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With the benefit cap of $2000 it basically is.

No, the benefit amount is capped not the income that can claim it.

Income splitting costs the government tax revenue and is essentially a tax cut, and it's a cut that benefits higher income couples over lower income couples (who more often have 2 incomes).

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No, the benefit amount is capped not the income that can claim it.

Income splitting costs the government tax revenue and is essentially a tax cut, and it's a cut that benefits higher income couples over lower income couples (who more often have 2 incomes).

How is that? As already mentioned, a single family with one earner making 80K a year currently pays more tax than a different family with two earners making 40k each.............how is that a benefit to the higher income couples? Even then, the sole 80k earner, with the $2000 cap, will still pay more taxes than the two 40k earners.

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If the trend continues, it looks like the Conservatives will continue to the right, the NDP to the left and the Liberals in the center. It will be interesting to see if it is center-left or center-right.

Only if you view your politics through a Left wing lens. Gradually over the past 10 years, the Conservatives have steadily taken control of a good portion of the Center - in addition to the Center Right. The Liberals have veered to the Left so much in the past couple of years that pundits and posters have been advocating a merger of the NDP and Liberals. They are in the unenviable position of trying to move into the Center while at the same time, fend off the NDP on the Left - all with a leader who has messaging challenges.

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As we've discussed here at length, the terms Left, Right and Center are meaningless without a frame of reference. The Conservatives are the "extreme right" to the majority of NDP supporters. They would also be considered "extreme left" by any US political standard or "left leaning" by those of us who identify as conservative in Alberta.

If someone could give a single issue and stance that we could agree upon as "center" would we then be able to put these parties in the correct places? Until then, they can only be assessed in relation to each other.

edit->

Conservatives - left

Liberals - more left

NDP - extreme left

Edited by Hydraboss

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From looking at the Liberal link, everyone making between $44,701-$200K gets a tax break, paid for by people making over 200K.

Isn't the median family income in the low to mid thirties? So this is a tax break for the top 1/3 of the population, paid for the top 1%. Nothing for the poorer 2/3 of the population...

My wife stayed home and watched the kids (and neighbors kids) till they started school. Now they started school, she is in university now. Income splitting is great for us. When she is done school, and making good money, income splitting won't help much, but the liberal plan will benefit us more!!

Not dropping the lowest bracket or increasing the personnel exemption shows that it is not any more progressive than the conservatives plan.

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Not dropping the lowest bracket or increasing the personnel exemption shows that it is not any more progressive than the conservatives plan.

Exactly. If any of these "plans" were about being "fair", they would simply raise the base exemption...but they didn't. To me, that basically translates to creating a micro-class war of sorts. The 1% versus the "middle class". I guess it must be important to support working families (just the right ones).

Tax break for some, paid for by tax increases for others. Now what does that remind me of??????

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How is that? As already mentioned, a single family with one earner making 80K a year currently pays more tax than a different family with two earners making 40k each.............how is that a benefit to the higher income couples? Even then, the sole 80k earner, with the $2000 cap, will still pay more taxes than the two 40k earners.

You can give isolated examples but statistically this tax benefit will not benefit Canadian lower income families compared to higher income and even middle income families. Articles abound on this. Even the Parliamentary Budget Officer states this.

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You can give isolated examples but statistically this tax benefit will not benefit Canadian lower income families compared to higher income and even middle income families. Articles abound on this. Even the Parliamentary Budget Officer states this.

What actually is a lower income Canadian family?

Under Trudeau's plan, the planned 20.5% (down from 22%) bracket ($44701-$89401 a year income) will translate into ~$ 700 a year in tax savings.........So a Canadian family with a single income earner making 75k a year will receive under $1000 a year in savings, versus the Tories proposed income splitting, with the same family saving up to the capped limit of $2000 a year........to say nothing of any benefits of the TFSA.....

So Trudeau's plan does nothing for low income Canadians, well hurting seniors, which by far comprise the majority of TFSA account holders.......as clearly the ability to sock away an extra 5000K a year over ten in a TFSA, with a 4-6% return, translates into ~$2000-3000 annual gains a year, versus Trudeau's $700........Canadians will do the math on both plans.......

Is Trudeau trying to put the Liberals in 4th place? :lol:

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You can give isolated examples but statistically this tax benefit will not benefit Canadian lower income families compared to higher income and even middle income families. Articles abound on this. Even the Parliamentary Budget Officer states this.

We (and the Libs) are talking about helping middle-income families. Of course income splitting does not help them, there are other way to help them.

Prior to income splitting, middle and higher income families with one main earner unfairly paid much more taxes compared to other families - with the same total family income - that happen to be split more evenly. How is this fair?

I suspect that the analysis/articles inflate the benefits of income splitting for the rich. The rich already split their income by allocating rental/investment income to the lower income earner and by incorporating their businesses and paying dividends to spouses and even children, etc...

Income splitting has significantly helped many families earning 60-120k, the Liberal plan will cost more than a few "isolated" votes.

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If Canadians didn't have to tax income taxes until they hit 50,000. then perhaps many of them could get rid of the household debt sooner. Many middle class that lost the good paying auto sector jobs, are ones that are hurting in debt, mostly likely. also, the next generation, is so far in debt from student loans, many won't be able to buy a house or even a car and I think education is costing too much for this generation. The Tories have reduced their revenues by cutting GST and by cutting corp. taxes and its the 48% of the national income comes from personal income, so by giving a tax split, revenue will be down , so don't be surprise if income taxes or some other income has to go up. It will be interesting to hear all this on the debates and get the experts view on this after.

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This is the standard argument against such measures, and it's echoed everywhere around the world. Realistically, however, it rings a little hollow. For the vast vast majority of people, a 4% increase to their tax burden is not going to cause them to uproot.

But it's not a 4% increase. When you go from 29 to 33 that's an increase of closer to 13%.

And it's not in isolation. I've had two tax increases already from the socialists in Toronto. These things add up, you know. Further, the fact that ever increasing taxes on higher income people will cause them (most such people tend to be pretty creative and energetic) to find ways to avoid paying that tax has been demonstrated in other jurisdictions around the world.

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No, the benefit amount is capped not the income that can claim it.

Income splitting costs the government tax revenue and is essentially a tax cut, and it's a cut that benefits higher income couples over lower income couples (who more often have 2 incomes).

Any income tax cut of any kind is going to benefit higher income Canadians over lower income Canadians since the latter pay no income taxes.

Edited by Argus

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We (and the Libs) are talking about helping middle-income families.

Nonsense. What you're talking about is stealing money from the successful to give it to the less successful in hopes those people reward you with votes. You can't even claim, as the Tories do with some evidence, that this is fairness in any way. It's simply taking money away from those who have really good incomes and giving it to people who have good incomes. It's not helping the poor, it's buying votes with other people's money. It's a cynical appeal to class envy, divide and conquer. There are more people in this tax bracket so you'll lavish money on them at the expense of the fewer people in the highest tax bracket in hopes that'll get you more votes.

Don't try to pretend it's any more complicated than that.

Edited by Argus

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Any tax cut of any kind is going to benefit higher income Canadians over lower income Canadians since the latter pay no income taxes.

Do you actually have any idea how low your income has to be before you pay no tax.....

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Actually, I'm pretty sure he does. Likely a better understanding than most on this board.

Being where I work, I have a very good understanding of it. When you combine all the credits and payments given to poor people, you actually have to be making somewhere over $25000 if you have kids before you're actually paying anything to the government. I know people with kids that make far more than that and pay nothing effectively.

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...that make far more than that and pay nothing effectively.

Exactly. Some people seem to just look at TD1s, etc and decide that the basic exemption listed is the final word on taxes. In the same way that the "rich" have tax loopholes, the "poor" have exemptions and credits like crazy.

The math isn't complicated, but it does take a little effort to understand.

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Trudeaus plan is all about the well off. The middle class is not hurting, they are doing incredible well, but stand to make the most.

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And also this is pitting the rich against the left, and he said he was going to unite the country, and one more thing he promised not to raise taxes.

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Yea cuz no leftie is rich of course.

:blink::rolleyes::blink:

And no rightie is poor, which goes against the anecdotal evidence an associated provided me regarding the high support for the Reform Party among welfare recipients in Ottawa in the 1990s.

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Nonsense. What you're talking about is stealing money from the successful to give it to the less successful in hopes those people reward you with votes. You can't even claim, as the Tories do with some evidence, that this is fairness in any way. It's simply taking money away from those who have really good incomes and giving it to people who have good incomes. It's not helping the poor, it's buying votes with other people's money. It's a cynical appeal to class envy, divide and conquer. There are more people in this tax bracket so you'll lavish money on them at the expense of the fewer people in the highest tax bracket in hopes that'll get you more votes.

Don't try to pretend it's any more complicated than that.

I was talking about income splitting. The Liberals say cancelling income splitting will help the middle-class. I disagree so strongly that I switched my voting intention from Liberal to Conservative.

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