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We have lots of statistics that show variations between different groups of humans. I can't think of any examples where the overlap of distributions was not large enough to make it impossible to apply differences in means to any individuals in the groups. Can you provide one?

And the rule of courtesy is you should not insult people by saying they have benefited personally from differences in statistical means when the distributions have large variances. And that does not even address the causality issue: i.e. even if white skinned people have collectively better outcomes that does not show there is any causal relationship.

You are conflating the issue. You are trying to imply their is no casual relation where that is not in question. The expert evidence from critical race theory and experts on race at the top institutions tell us this is the case. You have provided no evidence they are all wrong.

All whites benefit from white privilege, by definition. If they didn't it would be called something else. Its not about collectively better outcomes. Whites could have privilege and still have collectively worse outcomes. I gave many good examples from the black codes and jim crow era United States. You are trying to create a false equivaency between white privilege and as an invariable cause and effect relationship with outcomes of socio-economics. As I previously pointed out, this is not only wrong but also illogical and patently false. In fact in many cases white privilege leads to ethnic minorities actually earning more money than them. For instance, when whites said african americans cannot shop at white owned stores, cannot buy white made products and cannot stay at white hotels, hospitals, schools and places of accommodations. This certainly created a white privilege where whites could go anywhere they wanted and do anything they wanted and originals couldn't. However it had an unintended consequence of creating a rich african american class of people who owned businesses and product lines particularly in the cities, hotels, hospitals, schools, places of accommodations, bus lines, consumer products etc.

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So because someone else can over come white privilege or because someone white fails it means there is no white privilege? Do you understand that there was blatant on the books racist laws during the 1800s and 1900s in the united states yet there were legions of poor whites and plenty of rich originals? In fact on average the originals in the major cities were richer than the poor whites in the cities because a large degree of them owned businesses of very basic products. By your logic there was no white privilege in the 1950s because Samuel Fuller, african american ceo of the fuller company, had the equivalent of 180 million dollars of sales a year. James Forten was a free African American man who became a multi-millionaire during the 1700s and 1800s, would you have me believe well there was no white privilege then either?

That's all in the past, it is now 2015.

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You are conflating the issue. You are trying to imply their is no casual relation where that is not in question. The expert evidence from critical race theory and experts on race at the top institutions tell us this is the case. You have provided no evidence they are all wrong.

If you spend enough time mining data you can find enough spurious correlations to rationalize any belief you want to have. That does nothing to establish a causal relationship. For example, it is not hard to use those same statistics to show that any problems that minorities like blacks have are entirely a result of their choices (such as committing crimes or having children out of wedlock). But all that does is demonstrate why any "science" that relies on data mining to create narratives is no better than astrology.

All whites benefit from white privilege, by definition.

You should educate yourself on what the variance of a distribution is. If you have two distributions that largely overlap then you cannot use small differences in the statistical mean to draw any conclusions about individuals. The fact that you do not understand this demonstrates why it is so easy to produce deceptive results when you rely on data mining.

That said, data mining is a useful technique when (and only when):

1) You don't care about causality (such as businesses looking to better target ads);

2) You can conduct proper experiments to determine causality (which is generally not the case in any social science).

Edited by TimG

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That's all in the past, it is now 2015.

I'd like to set up a thread where we can get posters to track their personal timeline influence horizon. I just was on a thread where the actions of present-day people was associated to a holy book from the middle ages.

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Sorry if you are white in Canada, you have white privilege. Simple as that. It isn't even a question of. It hasn't even occured to you, you might not be employed if you weren't white, you might not get that home loan because of discrimination against non-white lenders. You see people don't notice that they were got the loan they were suppose to get. People don't notice they got the job they were suppose to get. But the Chinese or Indian who had more education, more income, more credit than you but got denied the loan, sure does notice.

White privilege isn't something a white person would even really notice. No one is rolling out a red carpet and a clown horn infront of you. Its how having an English or german accent makes you "smart" but having a Chinese accent makes it harder to rent an apartment. The English doesn't notice he called in, and got what he was suppose to get.

My white privilege caused me to be unemployed for close to two years. I worked hard to get back into the game. Many interviews, many long nights shoring up my skills and finally I am back in the game with a great company. My so called white privelage had SFA to do with me getting employed again. It was my skillset, my knowledge, my attitude and my drive which got me where I am today.

The while privilege you speak of is for the rich and powerful. I may be white/Caucasian, but that does not mean I am automatically granted privilege for being white/Caucasian.

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My white privilege caused me to be unemployed for close to two years. ... My so called white privelage had SFA to do with me getting employed again.

I've read descriptions of white privilege that actually include your kind of narrative as evidence that it DOES exist. In other words, "I was white and something bad happened, then something good happened" followed by a rationale that your race had nothing to do with the cycle of events.

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I've read descriptions of white privilege that actually include your kind of narrative as evidence that it DOES exist. In other words, "I was white and something bad happened, then something good happened" followed by a rationale that your race had nothing to do with the cycle of events.

Maybe you are conditioned to believe this white privilege is extended to all who are white. It is not. I again argue about RICH white privilege.

I worked hard to get back into a decent IT job. My current gig pays about half of what I was making before, but I am not arguing about it, because I am quite content in my current employment. I resent the fact that it is hinted I have some kind of privilege because of my skin colour.

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I'd like to set up a thread where we can get posters to track their personal timeline influence horizon. I just was on a thread where the actions of present-day people was associated to a holy book from the middle ages.

Seems reasonable. Of course, like you say, you'd have to ask them all to be sure.

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Maybe you are conditioned to believe this white privilege is extended to all who are white. It is not. I again argue about RICH white privilege.

I worked hard to get back into a decent IT job. My current gig pays about half of what I was making before, but I am not arguing about it, because I am quite content in my current employment. I resent the fact that it is hinted I have some kind of privilege because of my skin colour.

I think the point is that you had access to the institutions that allowed you to develop the skills to do the job, had access to the nutrition and supplies that helped you pass the courses, and were born in the country where the job existed.

None of it is your fault, so it doesn't matter. That's the point that seems to evade everyone.

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I think the point is that you had access to the institutions that allowed you to develop the skills to do the job, had access to the nutrition and supplies that helped you pass the courses, and were born in the country where the job existed.

I think it is well established that family wealth confers advantages on individuals. This is the nature of the universe and it will never change. The trouble are people who argue that because some people with certain skin pigmentation benefit from family wealth that all people who share that same pigmentation also benefit. The latter assertion is absurd. Edited by TimG

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I think it is well established that family wealth confers advantages on individuals. This is the nature of the universe and it will never change. The trouble are people who argue that because some people with certain skin pigmentation benefit from family wealth that all people who share that same pigmentation also benefit. The latter assertion is absurd.

Not family wealth. Just being born in Canada instead of Chad.

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I think the point is that you had access to the institutions that allowed you to develop the skills to do the job, had access to the nutrition and supplies that helped you pass the courses, and were born in the country where the job existed.

None of it is your fault, so it doesn't matter. That's the point that seems to evade everyone.

I live in Canada. My location has more to do with what advantages I have compared to my skin colour. I went back to school when I was 30 and it took me close to a decade to get out of debt and such. So this is not about white privilege, it is a location and economic advantage I have compared to most.

Wonder if I can get this same level of treatment living in China being white.

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Not family wealth. Just being born in Canada instead of Chad.

National wealth is an extension of family wealth. All people, no matter what their skin colour, benefit if their nation has wealth. But comparisons between countries are not relevant in this discussion. We are talking about the claim that skin colour confers advantages on its own within the context of a single country. That claim is false.

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National wealth is an extension of family wealth. All people, no matter what their skin colour, benefit if their nation has wealth. But comparisons between countries are not relevant in this discussion. We are talking about the claim that skin colour confers advantages on its own within the context of a single country. That claim is false.

I'll back you up on this. I rarely agree with what you say, but it's hard to logically argue against this notion.

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National wealth is an extension of family wealth. All people, no matter what their skin colour, benefit if their nation has wealth. But comparisons between countries are not relevant in this discussion. We are talking about the claim that skin colour confers advantages on its own within the context of a single country. That claim is false.

Ah, okay. I thought we were just saying it's better to have been born white, generally speaking.

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I live in Canada. My location has more to do with what advantages I have compared to my skin colour. I went back to school when I was 30 and it took me close to a decade to get out of debt and such. So this is not about white privilege, it is a location and economic advantage I have compared to most.

Wonder if I can get this same level of treatment living in China being white.

Again, like I said to TimG, the concept of "White Privelege" as I understand it is a very broad one. It's one reason why I felt it was rather pointless to argue about it. Basically, "not my fault, who cares?"

It's like arguing how priveleged people who are born on the coast are, because they can go to the beach.

Edited by bcsapper

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Again, like I said to TimG, the concept of "White Privelege" as I understand it is a very broad one.

The people who use that term intend it as a way to denigrate people who do not share their preferred skin tone. They also use it as an excuse to avoid addressing the complex problems that result in certain minorities getting trapped in cycles of poverty by blaming the problems on outside forces and ignoring the role that personal choices play. Edited by TimG

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Employment equity was created by whites who acknowledge the reality and listened to the experts that white privilege is real.

Just because some people believe in the flying spaghetti monster, does not mean that it is real. Also, religious 'experts' generally believe in a deity. Does that mean I should also believe in a deity since experts do?

Link to the study. I suspect it was usa?

Nope, Canada. I don't remember which of his studies it was exactly. It might have been this one (though I don't have time to check right now):

http://www.clsrn.econ.ubc.ca/workingpapers/CLSRN%20Working%20Paper%20no.%2095%20-%20Dechief%20and%20Oreopoulos.pdf

what about chinese being denied housing for accents as found in the star?

Was it a large scale study that found statistically significant results?

You need to be cautious about confirmation bias. Looking for evidence to fit a predetermined hypothesis is dangerous.

It occurs to me the leading experts on race have come to a conclusion white privilege is real from Tim Wise to Jane Elliot or Dr Ron Walters

'Experts' also believe in lots of nonsense.

Here is a question for you Hernanday. Do you believe in 'male privilege'? Cause these experts are usually saying that male privilege also exists.

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And there are a bunch of reference from university textbooks.

Yes, because universities are infected by this social justice religion.

This is not a stereotype, it is a scientifically documented phenomena that is recorded and published to millions of people all over the world by professors from world class institutions.

The existence of Allah is also recorded and published by millions of people all over the world by professors from world class institutions.

I guess that means Allah exists. *sarcasm*

A white person who tries to deny their privilege or defer is precisely as thee study describes, simply in denial and behaving childishly because they have been caught and are angry so attempt to lash out.

Such a belief is unfalsifiable. If people don't disagree with the existence of white privilege, then that suggests it must exist. But if people do disagree with the existence of white privilege, then that suggests they are just angry, so it must exist. That doesn't make sense.

"The concept of white privilege also implies the right to assume the universality of one's own experiences"

This is the part where the whole privilege hierarchy of the social justice warriors starts to get ridiculous. People are different and have very different experiences. Trying to project your experiences onto everyone else doesn't make sense.

I'm white and my mother is a schizophrenic person who poisoned me. Well I guess that must mean all white people have schitzophrenic crazy parents cause of universality!

I'm white and I was assaulted and suffered a concussion. Well I guess that must mean all white people will get assaulted and suffer concussions in their life times!

I'm white and my family has a history of eating very spicy food. Well I guess that must mean all white people eat very spicy food!

Etc.

It's dumb.

Edited by -1=e^ipi

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Of course you do. Humans like to feel they have control.

You are generalizing. I usually feel like I do not have control. And the many men that commit suicide often feel they have no control before they commit suicide.

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To postulate that the amount of pigment is what generates privilege speaks for itself. Not one person who supports such a notion has any proof that the lack of skin pigment led to the privilege if it in fact exists.

Someone get back to me when they have proof. Until then all the subjective stereotypes some of you have mean as much to me as your pigment.

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If you spend enough time mining data you can find enough spurious correlations to rationalize any belief you want to have. That does nothing to establish a causal relationship. For example, it is not hard to use those same statistics to show that any problems that minorities like blacks have are entirely a result of their choices (such as committing crimes or having children out of wedlock). But all that does is demonstrate why any "science" that relies on data mining to create narratives is no better than astrology.

You should educate yourself on what the variance of a distribution is. If you have two distributions that largely overlap then you cannot use small differences in the statistical mean to draw any conclusions about individuals. The fact that you do not understand this demonstrates why it is so easy to produce deceptive results when you rely on data mining.

That said, data mining is a useful technique when (and only when):

1) You don't care about causality (such as businesses looking to better target ads);

2) You can conduct proper experiments to determine causality (which is generally not the case in any social science).

You are dancing away from the facts that the vast majority of the experts say white privilege is real and occurs.

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My white privilege caused me to be unemployed for close to two years. I worked hard to get back into the game. Many interviews, many long nights shoring up my skills and finally I am back in the game with a great company. My so called white privelage had SFA to do with me getting employed again. It was my skillset, my knowledge, my attitude and my drive which got me where I am today.

The while privilege you speak of is for the rich and powerful. I may be white/Caucasian, but that does not mean I am automatically granted privilege for being white/Caucasian.

How would you know? Sure there are whites who can work hard, no one disputes that, but it doesn't negate white privilege. Nope, all whites benefit rom white privilege, besides a poor white man can become a rich white man with the flick of a wand.

White privilege is not limited to "Rich whites"

"White privilege (or white skin privilege) is a term for societal privileges that benefit white people in Western countries beyond what is commonly experienced by non-white people under the same social, political, or economic circumstances.[note 1] According to McIntosh and Lee, whites in a society considered culturally a part of the Western world enjoy advantages that non-whites do not experience.[1] The term denotes both obvious and less obvious passive advantages that white persons may not recognize they have, which distinguishes it from overt bias or prejudice.[2] These include cultural affirmations of one's own worth; presumed greater social status; and freedom to move, buy, work, play, and speak freely.[1] The effects can be seen in professional, educational, and personal contexts.[3] The concept of white privilege also implies the right to assume the universality of one's own experiences, marking others as different or exceptional while perceiving oneself as normal.[4][5]

Academic perspectives such as critical race theory and whiteness studies use the concept of "white privilege" to analyze how racism and racialized societies affect the lives of white people."

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