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Islamophobia in Canada

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2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Who is saying there aren't religious fanatics among Muslims?

It's not that people are saying there are not, it's just those who say there are, are racists and xenophobes.

That said, if we are agreed that barbaric religious and cultural practices should not be allowed in Canada, what on Earth are we going to do about it?

 

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6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Who is saying there aren't religious fanatics among Muslims?

On the other hand, I work with Muslims and they tell me that Muslims are like any other religious being. Some practice it, some don't. Just like some Christians go to church every Sunday and others only Xmas eve mass. 

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29 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It's not that people are saying there are not, it's just those who say there are, are racists and xenophobes.

 

That's not true.  The people who are called 'racists and xenophobes' are those who have a pattern of doing some, most or all of the following:

  • Post endless verses from the Quran to "prove" Muslims are evil, ignoring and dismissing any contradictory quotes, hadiths or beliefs held by actual Muslims
  • Post endless stories about the barbarity practiced by some Muslims and project it to all Muslims, even though some of these stories are outright false, and even the ones that are true are in the news because they are *unusual* - it's why they are news. 
  • Speak as if Muslims are the only group who practices barbarity, ignoring any other groups, including our own, either current or historical who are just as barbaric
  • Believe they know what a woman is thinking and feeling based on her wearing of a scarf
  • Believe Muslims when they say they are devout and attend mosque, but assume they are lying if they also say they are proud to be Canadians 
  • Believe the debunked story that  Mohammed married a six-year-old; ignore, and dismiss all the stories that put her age at mid-to-late teens, as well as the experts on Islam and Mohammed who put her age at mid-to-late teens.
  • Believe, without question, stories of unrestrained rape and assault by Muslims against 'white girls' in European countries, despite any facts presented to the contrary
  • Call Muslims unable to learn and progress
  • Call Muslim women too retarded to learn to use birth control
  • Believe that M103 is a "Sharia" law instead of a proposal for a study; then claim that it's the 'first step' to Sharia law.
  • Without any understanding of Sharia law and it's several different forms, claim it's coming and that it means we're all going to be oppressed/killed/stoned/etc.
  • Relentlessly assume the worst of Muslims in general, discount any suggestion that most of them, whatever their personal beliefs are, follow the law of the land they are in. 

 

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That said, if we are agreed that barbaric religious and cultural practices should not be allowed in Canada, what on Earth are we going to do about it?

We do agree, and we have laws against those practices already.   The problem has already been solved.

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1 hour ago, WestCoastRunner said:

On the other hand, I work with Muslims and they tell me that Muslims are like any other religious being. Some practice it, some don't. Just like some Christians go to church every Sunday and others only Xmas eve mass. 

 

When I was in Egypt for almost three weeks, I don't recall ever seeing either of my two brothers-in-law praying, even though I spent significant time with them.  This isn't to say they didn't, but if so they kept it private.   

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1 hour ago, WestCoastRunner said:

You should check out the founder of this site. 

So I did .... 

 

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Frank J. Gaffney Jr. (born April 5, 1953) is an American conspiracy theorist[4] who is the founder and president of the Center for Security Policy. He has worked in the US government, including seven months in the post of Acting Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs.

 

 

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According to the SPLC, Gaffney's beliefs stem "from a single discredited source – a 1991 fantasy written by a lone Muslim Brotherhood member that was introduced into evidence during the 2008 Holy Land Foundation trial in Dallas federal court. But to Gaffney, this document is a smoking gun, a mission statement pointing to a massive Islamist conspiracy under our noses".[

 
 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, dialamah said:

That's not true.  The people who are called 'racists and xenophobes' are those who have a pattern of doing some, most or all of the following:

  • Post endless verses from the Quran to "prove" Muslims are evil, ignoring and dismissing any contradictory quotes, hadiths or beliefs held by actual Muslims

 Well, the verses are either accurately quoted or they are not.  If they are not, fair enough.  If they are, what's to say the contradictory quotes, hadiths or beliefs held by actual Muslims matter?  Surely it would be those who believe the Quran quotes who are the point of the discussion?

  • Post endless stories about the barbarity practiced by some Muslims and project it to all Muslims, even though some of these stories are outright false, and even the ones that are true are in the news because they are *unusual* - it's why they are news. 

They are not unusual.  They seem to happen a lot.  (We are talking worldwide here, right?  I understand not a lot happens in Alberta) That said, I still don't know of anyone who says such barbarity is practiced by all Muslims. 

  • Speak as if Muslims are the only group who practices barbarity, ignoring any other groups, including our own, either current or historical who are just as barbaric

Historic doesn't matter so much to me.  I really sympathize with the Christians who were eaten by Lions in the Colosseum, but I'm not going to worry about Italians today because of it.  Currently, Muslims are not the only ones.  They just seem to be the ones who do it most frequently.

  • Believe they know what a woman is thinking and feeling based on her wearing of a scarf

No, what they believe is that women are considered second class citizens in much of the Islamic world, and in much of the Islamic world, they are forced to cover themselves.  I have always been against any kind of ban in the west, because I'm pro choice.  What I think of the choice doesn't matter.

  • Believe Muslims when they say they are devout and attend mosque, but assume they are lying if they also say they are proud to be Canadians 

Not me.  I'm proud to be two things too. 

  • Believe the debunked story that  Mohammed married a six-year-old; ignore, and dismiss all the stories that put her age at mid-to-late teens, as well as the experts on Islam and Mohammed who put her age at mid-to-late teens.

I don't know about this.  Never looked into it.  Historic.  Don't care.

  • Believe, without question, stories of unrestrained rape and assault by Muslims against 'white girls' in European countries, despite any facts presented to the contrary

I never believe anything without question.  I believe it if it appears to be true though.  I agree that one cannot trust all the news one hears these days, regardless of its slant.

  • Call Muslims unable to learn and progress

You got me.  Whoever said that was wrong.  Unless they just meant some Muslims.

  • Call Muslim women too retarded to learn to use birth control

See previous.  I can't even imagine that applying to any Muslims.  Except in cases where the men say so.

  • Believe that M103 is a "Sharia" law instead of a proposal for a study; then claim that it's the 'first step' to Sharia law.

I still don't know what to think of 103, and I don't think anyone else does either.  We'll have to see what kind of conditions it comes up with.  I would hope it does not chill freedom of speech in any way, including the freedom to say it's the first step to Sharia Law.

  • Without any understanding of Sharia law and it's several different forms, claim it's coming and that it means we're all going to be oppressed/killed/stoned/etc.

I really don't know if it's coming, but let's be clear.  We don't want it, do we, regardless of the form it takes?  Right?

  • Relentlessly assume the worst of Muslims in general, discount any suggestion that most of them, whatever their personal beliefs are, follow the law of the land they are in. 

Quite the opposite.  It seems perfectly obvious to me that if most Muslims were of the blasphemer killing kind, we'd all be dead.  That doesn't take away from the scariness of those who are.

 

We do agree, and we have laws against those practices already.   The problem has already been solved.

So the problem is solved by waiting for a criminal act, then putting the perpetrator in prison?  Apologising to the victim, if still alive?

Is it your contention that any act that was/is permissable in a country of origin is automatically dropped at the border?  Would you not think some kind of notice might be in order, for those who might try to sneak one past customs?  Do you not think it might be difficult to leave behind a lifetime of acting a certain way, and change overnight?

(Don't get me wrong.  I'm talking about acts.  Views are one's own, no matter how reprehensible.  Unless you are teaching them to others)

But there is no harm in letting people know what is not permissable.  It could be like those ads where cops breathalyze people, but it could be about FGM and gay rights instead.  It needn't only apply to Muslims.

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7 hours ago, Rue said:

I suggest you need to either contribute something meaningful to this thread or get off.

Was I talking to you? No I wasn't. So get lost.

Your one trick pony name calling is spent.

After only a couple of years? I'm afraid not.  I still have about 15 years of giving as good as I got from rwc's in that department. I suggest you either get used to it or do something about it.

 

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7 hours ago, Rue said:

The posing as a victim is hilarious. You clearly need everything thread to focus on you and your feelings of victimization.

Could you give me an example of what you mean?  I can't say I've ever seen anyone else do this before have you?

 

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So go start a thread about how you are a victim when you won't even define whether you are white, a Muslim, etc. Lol.

Sure I have, nowhere near as many times as I've had others define me but c'mon, I'm sure if you try harder you'll recall what I've said I am.

 

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I mean I can only  imagine the pain you live with.

Can you feel the contempt coming through?

 

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Should I go to MacDonald's or Burger King. Oh me oh my. What should I do.

Choke on it whatever you decide.

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On 5/5/2017 at 5:20 PM, DogOnPorch said:

 

You think I'm white...like a good racist.

Based on your notions of your family being of German lineage, there is a 95% chance you are white. And if you are white, then why then you say this shit? Trolling again? Get a grip Dog.

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On 5/7/2017 at 3:47 PM, DogOnPorch said:

I understand you subscribe to the Government's version of what happened.

Put your tinfoil hat on. What you don't believe the government? Conspiracy theorist.

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On 5/8/2017 at 2:47 PM, DogOnPorch said:

 

Even YOU can join Islam and hate Jews.

Don't need to join Islam to hate Jews. I am living proof..   apparently ( /sarcasm in case that was lost on the stupid).

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On 5/8/2017 at 4:03 PM, dialamah said:

"FGM is practiced in many countries in the Middle East, Africa and Asia, by adherents from many different religions.  It is more prevalent in poor villages among the illiterate than in urban centers with a higher education level."

Yet not a word about circumcision.

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2 hours ago, GostHacked said:

Yet not a word about circumcision.

Actually circumcision has been mentioned a few times on here.  It's not as bad as FGM, but it is certainly wrong for any child to have bits hacked off without its permission, except for obvious health reasons.

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16 hours ago, Argus said:

My neighbour next door is very nice. He seems to like me and he stops to chat whenever he sees me. He seems to be a nice guy, too, unless the discussion turns to Islam. His wife wears the hijab and the full robe thingee, and he tells me with great confidence that she must, because that is what God requires. He's a friendly guy, but don't get him started on gays.

Have you ever asked your neighbours what they think of homosexuals, or on the sharia laws which require women be stoned for adultery and gays killed?

There is about a 50/50 chance that Muslim-Canadians think that homosexuality should be acceptable in society.  This is to low and should be improved.

Here is another example of diversity in Islam:

http://www.mpvusa.org/mpv-principles/

16 hours ago, Argus said:


I looked him up. Here's what he has to say about your claim of "a whole spectrum of devoutness/literalists".

There’s no contradiction in the term American Muslim; but that doesn’t mean Islam is like other monotheistic faiths. It isn’t, in part because it doesn’t lend itself as easily to modern liberalism. The more I’ve studied my own religion — its theology, history and culture — the more I’ve come to appreciate how complicated it is and how much more complicated it must be for people who are coming at it from scratch.

Contrary to what many think, there is no Christian equivalent to Koranic “inerrancy,” even among far-right evangelicals. Muslims believe the Koran is not only God’s word, but God’s actual speech — in other words, every single letter and word in the Koran comes directly from God. This seemingly semantic difference has profound implications. If the Koran is God’s speech, and God is unchanging and perfect, then so is his speech. To question the divine origin of the Koran, then, is to question God himself, and God is not easily put in a box, well away from the public sphere. 

Differences between Christianity and Islam also are evident in each faith’s central figure. Unlike Jesus, who was a dissident, Muhammad was both prophet and politician. And more than just any politician, he was a state-builder as well as a head of state. Not only were the religious and political functions intertwined in the person of Muhammad, they were meant to be intertwined. To argue for the separation of religion from politics, then, is to argue against the model of the very man Muslims most admire and seek to emulate.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-hamid-islamic-exceptionalism-burkini-20160909-snap-story.html

I am not responding to your examples of educated intolerant Muslims.  I acknowledge that they exist, there are far too many intolerant people in the world and Muslims are very likely over-represented in this group.  I also agree with Shadi Hamid that Islam is different from other religions and appreciate these discussions as they have inspired my to learn more and hone my opinions.  The pew survey is an eye opening source for just how intolerant people can be but also shows diversity:

The importance Muslims place on religion varies significantly by region. In addition, in some countries younger and more highly educated Muslims assign less importance to religion than do older and less educated Muslims.

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/08/09/the-worlds-muslims-unity-and-diversity-2-religious-commitment/

How about you, do you acknowledge that there is diversity in the opinions and practices of Muslims?  Do you think that a person can be both a Muslim and a good Canadian citizen? 

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18 hours ago, eyeball said:

And yet virtually all conservatives who emigrate...wherever...are right-wingers.

Screening for conservatives is hopeless but we could easily let everyone know that Canada is a progressive country and that while conservative values are tolerated progress is the more appropriate choice for immigrants to follow.

What about Progressive Conservatives?

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17 hours ago, Rue said:

Yes uneducated people are intolerant.  But hey, you love the unwashed masses and their ignorance. You didn't mean that.

An educated person is more likely to be tolerant than an uneducated person.

17 hours ago, Rue said:

Next what does your "Islam is not political- Islamism is" comment mean? Do you even know when you trotted it  out?

Since when does one have to put ISM at the end of Islam before it becomes inherently political>

Go read the Koran and ditch the ridiculous buzz words. This is not some political science lecture with labels with the word ism.

In actual life, Islam  does not separate state from religion. End of story. That makes it inherently political , ism or no ism. Its got nothing to do with putting an Ism at the end of Islam.

It in fact has to do with the fact that the Koran clearly sets out in detail a wide spectrum of issues regarding political, social and personal matters by  defines them as laws in legislation. The Koran defines how to  judge between people in their disputes and to do that it necessarily created a political and legal apparatus to administer and execute its laws. Muhammed was defined not just as the leader of Islam but its Head of state.

Have you even read the Koran?

"Apparently when they added an ism to my rectum it became a political movement. Who knew."

Rue 2017

Here is the link I shared in my first post on this thread:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

Islam can be political and often is, but it is not necessarily political:

SEPARATION OF RELIGIOUS AND STATE AUTHORITIES

We believe that freedom of conscience is not only essential to all human societies but integral to the Qur’anic view of humanity. We believe that secular government is the only way to achieve the Islamic ideal of freedom from compulsion in matters of faith.

http://www.mpvusa.org/mpv-principles/

 

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14 hours ago, dialamah said:

That's not true.  The people who are called 'racists and xenophobes' are those who have a pattern of doing some, most or all of the following:

So basically anyone not a Muslim. Good to know!

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Believe the debunked story that  Mohammed married a six-year-old; ignore, and dismiss all the stories that put her age at mid-to-late teens, as well as the experts on Islam and Mohammed who put her age at mid-to-late teens.

Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234 :

Narrated by Aisha

The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

https://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_5_58.php

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11 minutes ago, Argus said:

So basically anyone not a Muslim. Good to know!

And would you say you do some, most or all?

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1 hour ago, carepov said:

How about you, do you acknowledge that there is diversity in the opinions and practices of Muslims?  Do you think that a person can be both a Muslim and a good Canadian citizen? 

If Irshad Manji is a Muslim then certainly. But your question really should have been "Can a person be both a good Muslim and a good Canadian citizen?" And the answer to that is, I believe, no. Because a good Muslim accepts that every word in the Koran is the literal word of God, and so much be obeyed. And the Koran contains much vicious and intolerant stuff on how to deal with Inifdels and others which simply is not compatible with Canadian values.

 

Look, I haven't said we should kill all the Muslims, or expel them all, and I haven't even said we should have no Muslims immigrating here, though I waver on that. You point out that there are variations between just how intolerant people are around the world, and I acknowledge this, too. But we're bringing in tens of thousands of Muslims each year largely from those parts of the Muslim world where rigid and violent intolerance is at its highest. And the way immigration rules are set up right now even if a prospective immigrant freely says he thinks all gays and Jews should die, and women should be beaten if they disobey their husbands there is absolutely nothing in our criteria which would rule out bringing him here and giving him citizenship.  Pakistan is one of our top immigration source countries and 89% of them feel stoning is the appropriate punishment for adultery. I do not want people with that sort of belief coming to Canada and being given Canadian citizenship.

 

Edited by Argus

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2 minutes ago, Omni said:

And would you say you do some, most or all?

Arguing with Islamophiles is, in some ways like arguing with 9/11 truthers. They ignore all evidence which counters their beliefs, and simply dismiss the sources as 'fake news' or 'far right wing' sites. And so you have someone who blithely calls the marriage between Muhammed and a 6 year old 'debunked' when no Islamic scholar would ever agree. And then says anyone who says otherwise is an islamophobe! 

Faced with the arguments of Western critics, Muslim apologists sometimes piece together information from various accounts in an attempt to deny that Aisha was as young as critics often claim:The problem with the selective and carefully edited defense just given (other than the complete lack of references) is that it ignores the numerous accounts we now possess which record Aisha’s age when Muhammad consummated his marriage to her. Many of these accounts are from Aisha herself. Indeed, the evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the young Aisha is as strong as the evidence for just about any other fact in Islam. We have copious traditions relating Muhammad’s marriage proposal when Aisha was six or seven years old, as well as his consummation of that marriage when she was nine

https://myislam.dk/articles/en/wood was-muhammad-a-pedophile.php

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6 minutes ago, Argus said:

I do not want people with that sort of belief coming to Canada and being given Canadian citizenship.

And you are entitled to feel that way. Who could blame you, given what you believe?   

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1 minute ago, dialamah said:

And you are entitled to feel that way. Who could blame you, given what you believe?   

I take it you disagree, and you DO want people who believe stoning should be the punishment for adultery to immigrate to Canada in their thousands?

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2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And you are entitled to feel that way. Who could blame you, given what you believe?   

 

What is telling is that you need to lie for Islam.

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3 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Actually circumcision has been mentioned a few times on here.  It's not as bad as FGM, but it is certainly wrong for any child to have bits hacked off without its permission, except for obvious health reasons.

Huge difference between female circumcision which mutilates the vagina and clipping off a foreskin.

Foreskin was removed and still is by all people who live in desert climates because sand would get caught in the foreskin. That's where the practice originated.

It was also done in warm climates to prevent fungus and yeast infections.

Today its still done for that reason and it lowers cervical cancer transmission rates to women so boys cut if off and show some sensitivity

Listen no one asked me when the doctor spanked my ass either. What the hell. Life is unfair.

Now back to Islamophobia,  I don't think a fear or disdain of foreskin removal counts as part of Islamophobia  but since it still has not been defined maybe I should check with the MP who passed that motion.

 

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