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bcsapper

Can I ask a question about Cultural Appropriation?

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How about wearing a kilt? All kinds of idiots from every culture in the world wear kilts to do all kinds of stupid things and I don't see Scots getting bent out of shape over it, let alone the PC nitwits at places like the U of O.

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You might assume that they have either heard it from those who are offended, or that they might actually have some sense in their heads.

There are people who want to ban such things a flag burning, which is an intentional political statement of provocation and free expression. Wouldn't you think these same people would be careful about casually offending others when they were asked not to ?

People can pick and choose their behavior. I personally wouldn't burn anyone's flag, or draw anyone's prophet, or wear anyone's headdress, but I wouldn't want to stop anyone who did. I might bring a curry to the pot luck at work. Would you eat it, that's the question?

Edited by bcsapper

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Would you eat it, that's the question?

In protest, I would not. Would you bring it again if I did ? Do sports teams need to offend people for some reason ? Or is it just a reflection of the belligerent and entitled fans that like sports, and want to flaunt that they can be as offensive as they like ?

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In protest, I would not. Would you bring it again if I did ? Do sports teams need to offend people for some reason ? Or is it just a reflection of the belligerent and entitled fans that like sports, and want to flaunt that they can be as offensive as they like ?

You wouldn't miss much. I do have trouble getting curry right. The next time I would bring Sushi.

Sports clubs? I don't know. It wouldn't bother me if they all changed their name to United, not even from a Cultural Appropriation standpoint.

It won't bother me if they don't though.

Edited by bcsapper

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I don't know, Italian haute couture? If it's a bad example, please excuse it. What are your views on the examples in the OP? If it's not insulting, as in cybercoma's tailgate example, where is the harm?

Who gets to say? The members of the culture themselves, or others, who feel it is wrong? What right have they, if the latter is the case, to speak for another culture?

I thought it was clear: there's a difference between cultural exchange and cultural appropriation that drains certain symbols or practices of their meaning. White people making or eating curry is cultural exchange. White people dressing up in bindis to go to take drugs at a music festival is probably appropriation.

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I thought it was clear: there's a difference between cultural exchange and cultural appropriation that drains certain symbols or practices of their meaning. White people making or eating curry is cultural exchange. White people dressing up in bindis to go to take drugs at a music festival is probably appropriation.

Oh, it's never clear. Given your example of appropriation, what is wrong with that? It's not insulting, as per CC's example, or MH's sports teams. It's not costing anyone anything.

My original question was not, what's wrong with insulting another culture by making fun of it, but rather, what is wrong with cultural appropriation?

What is wrong with adopting facets of another culture and blending them in with your own?

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Oh, it's never clear. Given your example of appropriation, what is wrong with that? It's not insulting, as per CC's example, or MH's sports teams. It's not costing anyone anything.

Shouldn't that be up to the people whose culture is being borrowed?

My original question was not, what's wrong with insulting another culture by making fun of it, but rather, what is wrong with cultural appropriation?
What is wrong with adopting facets of another culture and blending them in with your own?
Let me ask you this: would you say it`s ok for a white person to use the word nigger because they heard it used by black people in rap lyrics?

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Shouldn't that be up to the people whose culture is being borrowed?

Let me ask you this: would you say it`s ok for a white person to use the word nigger because they heard it used by black people in rap lyrics?

It's certainly up to the people whose culture is being borrowed to express dismay or outrage if they feel it.

Would you say anyone not from said culture should refrain from comment?

Wouldn't bother me if a white person appropriated black music forms. I do every day.

The use of nigger would be the same as any other racial epithet. I wouldn't support it, but I wouldn't get my knickers in a twist about it either.

Edit> Sorry, I misread your last question. It wasn't about appropriating the music.

Edited by bcsapper

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The use of nigger would be the same as any other racial epithet. I wouldn't support it, but I wouldn't get my knickers in a twist about it either.

Wow.

The funniest part is you make a comment like that yet you expect to be taken seriously in a discussion about race and culture.

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Wow.

The funniest part is you make a comment like that yet you expect to be taken seriously in a discussion about race and culture.

Could you explain that? Black Dog used the word in a question, so I answered it.

Actually, what would be really helpful to me, would be if you said what my answer should have been?

Edited by bcsapper

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It's certainly up to the people whose culture is being borrowed to express dismay or outrage if they feel it.

Would you say anyone not from said culture should refrain from comment?

Well it kinda depends on the level of expertise and involvement of the person commenting.

Wouldn't bother me if a white person appropriated black music forms. I do every day.

No you don't. You listen to black music. That's exchange or appreciation. Appropriation is like when Pat Boone came out with sanitized versions of '50s black rock and roll songs. Taking the good stuff and erasing the references to the culture that created it.

The use of nigger would be the same as any other racial epithet. I wouldn't support it, but I wouldn't get my knickers in a twist about it either.
I don't think you understand the question. Do you think it's ok for a white person to use the word in the same way as black people do; that is, not as an epithet but a jocular expression of camaraderie or solidarity?
Edited by Black Dog

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Well it kinda depends on the level of expertise and involvement of the person commenting.

No you don't. You listen to black music. That's exchange or appreciation. Apporpriation is like when Pat Boone came out with sanitized versions of '50s black rock and roll songs.

No, I play it.

I don't think you understand the question. Do you think it's ok for a white person to use the word in the same way as black people do; that is, not as an epithet but a jocular expression of camaraderie or solidarity?

I said I didn't, but I really don't care. See my point about refraining from comment.

I would imagine that that would also be up to the people involved. What if close friends of varying skin colours thought it was ok. Would you comment? I wouldn't.

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I said I didn't, but I really don't care. See my point about refraining from comment.

Well I think I'm starting to see why you don't get what cultural appropriation is if you think nasty racial slurs are NBD.

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Well I think I'm starting to see why you don't get what cultural appropriation is if you think nasty racial slurs are NBD.

But you just said it wasn't a nasty racial slur. You said it was a jocular expression of camaraderie or solidarity.

For the record, I am a proponent of freedom of speech, such that I don't care too much about offensive speech. I'll wince, but I won't censor.

Edit> A question I just asked myself. Would I stand up to those insulting Muslims as a result of anger over such incidents as the Paris murders? Yes I would. So what does that say about my beliefs in freedom of speech? I don't know. I have to think about that.

Edited by bcsapper

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But you just said it wasn't a nasty racial slur. You siad it was a jocular expression of camaraderie or solidarity.

Yes: when black people use it. Do you not see that the use by a white person might change the meaning given all the historical baggage that white folks using the word nigger carries?

For the record, I am a proponent of freedom of speech, such that I don't care too much about offensive speech. I'll wince, but I won't censor.

What do you mean censor? What do you do if one of your friends uses a racial slur?

Edited by Black Dog

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Yes: when black people use it. Do you not see that the use by a white person might change the meaning given all the historical baggage that white folks using the word nigger carries?

What do you mean censor? What do you do if one of your friends uses a racial slur?

Well, what if, as I asked earlier, it is mutually acceptable to the people in the conversation?

If a friend used it I would let her know how I felt about it. I have a number of options, none involve censoring her.

Please see my edit to the post you quoted. I suppose official censorship is what I am against. (laws and government intervention)

Edited by bcsapper

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Well, what if, as I asked earlier, it is mutually acceptable to the people in the conversation?

That would be determined by the individuals involved, but it's a pretty safe assumption that for the vast majority of the population, a white person dropping that word would be extremely offensive because of the historical connotations.* That's what I'm getting at with the cultural appropriation v. appreciation thing.

*TBH, I don't think "my black friends are ok with me saying it" is really much of a defense either.

If a friend used it I would let her know how I felt about it. I have a number of options, none involve censoring her.
Is telling someone something is offensive and that they shouldn't do that "censorship" IYO?

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That would be determined by the individuals involved, but it's a pretty safe assumption that for the vast majority of the population, a white person dropping that word would be extremely offensive because of the historical connotations.* That's what I'm getting at with the cultural appropriation v. appreciation thing.

*TBH, I don't think "my black friends are ok with me saying it" is really much of a defense either.

Is telling someone something is offensive and that they shouldn't do that "censorship" IYO?

First point, granted. But that is offensive in and of itself, yes? The cultural appropriation is secondary to the offense given by the use of the word. I'm still no closer to knowing what is wrong with me playing Blind Blake songs.

Second point, telling someone it is offensive isn't censoring them. Telling them they shouldn't say it would be inviting self censorship on their part.

Censorship of them on my part would probably involve some form of force or coercion, neither of which I would be willing to do.

Edited by bcsapper

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First point, granted. But that is offensive in and of itself, yes? The cultural appropriation is secondary to the offense given by the use of the word.

To be clear: I'm not using white people saying n***er as an example of cultural appropriation, but to demonstrate how historical context changes meaning. So a white person wearing a First Nations headdress at a rave may not be offensive in and of itself (though you could make the argument that it is), but when you look at it in the broader context of the colonization of the First Nations and all that entails (including the outright theft of cultural objects), you can maybe see why it could cause some problems. Symbols have meaning beyond that which is intended by the person deploying it. See also: the Confederate flag.

I'm still no closer to knowing what is wrong with me playing Blind Blake songs.

No said there was.

Second point, telling someone it is offensive isn't censoring them. Telling them they shouldn't say it would be inviting self censorship on their part.

And there's nothing wrong with that IMO.

Censorship of them on my part would probably involve some form of force or coercion, neither of which I would be willing to do.

Well that's why so many claims of "censorship" in these PC debates ring hollow. Most people don't have the capacity to actually censor anyone.

Edited by Black Dog

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To be clear: I'm not using white people saying n***er as an example of cultural appropriation, but to demonstrate how historical context changes meaning.

So is it reasonable to assume that if culltural appropriation isn't also offensive, then it should be okay? And by offensive I mean actually offensive, not that some people find cultural appropriation itself offensive.

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Today's issue:

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/north/ktz-fashion-inuit-design-1.3337047

"KTZ fashion under fire for using Inuit design without family's consent

This is my great-grandfathers sacred garment copied right down to the tee, says Salome Awa

For profit, with no understanding of the significance of the design.

Inappropriate. Disrespectful. Theft of intellectual property.

Unoriginal design too.

Just like plagiarism.

Eta ...

And an article about cultural appropriation re headresses:

http://apihtawikosisan.com/hall-of-shame/an-open-letter-to-non-natives-in-headdresses/

Would you wear military medals you didn't earn ... as a fashion statement ... or a joke?

.

Edited by jacee

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Today's issue:

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/north/ktz-fashion-inuit-design-1.3337047

"KTZ fashion under fire for using Inuit design without family's consent

This is my great-grandfathers sacred garment copied right down to the tee, says Salome Awa

For profit, with no understanding of the significance of the design.

Inappropriate. Disrespectful. Theft of intellectual property.

Unoriginal design too.

Just like plagiarism.

.

Interesting article. I would say this was wrong on the level that someone is profiting from the appropriation, passing it off as their own work. I hope they are suitably embarrassed. Also, $845 for a sweatshirt?

Then there's, "Dsquaw" line???

Seems like they have a fair bit to answer for...

Edit> I do have to say, upon reflection, that the thing that bothers me about this is that it almost amounts to individual theft, not cultural appropriation. I know it is both, but it is the former that bothers me.

Edited by bcsapper

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I would say this was wrong on the level that someone is profiting from the appropriation, passing it off as their own work.

Things like this should be covered under trademark and copyright law. If a region in France the only one allowed to sell wines called "Champagnes" then native bands should have ownership over native designs.

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