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The Spoiler-Filled, Spoilerific Star Wars: The Force Awakens Thread


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It really does seem like an inefficient strategy. It feels like the writers just needed a plot device and decided to recycle the planet-killer idea yet again. "meh, whatever. Let's blow up some more planets."

-k

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The Empire didn't build the clones themselves, remember, they were bought from a factory on a planet called "Kamino" in Episode 2.

Given that the original clone army were biologically adult at a time before Luke and Leia were born, the first batch of clones are probably dead of old age by the time of The Force Awakens. Supposing that the Empire continued buying fresh batches of clones right up to the time they were defeated, the last batch of clones purchased would still be biologically quite old (by soldier standards at least) and certainly a lot older than Finn.

And I would assume "The First Order" couldn't just go out and start buying clones... they were in retreat after being defeated and must have needed some amount of time to rebuild themselves... and I wouldn't think the New Republic would allow defeated enemies to just fly over to Kamino and purchase a fresh army.

But I also don't think the Empire would have continued buying clones following the events in Revenge of the Sith, because they had no enemy to fight and they could just recruit soldiers from member planets. Luke talked about going to the Academy in Episode 4.

-k

Clones are still an option here. Finn was from an "elite" squad of troopers who were not clones, but rather children raised from birth to be soldiers. Ren even makes the comment that perhaps they should have used clones since Finn's training was evidently defective. Edited by cybercoma
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Clones are still an option here. Finn was from an "elite" squad of troopers who were not clones, but rather children raised from birth to be soldiers. Ren even makes the comment that perhaps they should have used clones since Finn's training was evidently defective.

You make a good point there.

-k

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I think if there's anything that disappoints me about the new movie, it's the sense of been-there, done-that.

The Star Wars universe is a huge place, filled with infinite possibilities. They've explored some of them in books and video games and comics set in the Star Wars continuity. They've had stories based around smugglers, and spies, and bounty-hunters, and underworld themes and military themes... but here we are, back on a desert planet-- but a different desert planet-- with a new apprentice who is strong in the Force and has some kind of hidden connection to that same family... and they have to destroy another planet-smashing device before the bad guys smash any more planets... and the same bad-guys, and the same good-guys, same space-ships, same two droids...

I think a movie set in the "Old Republic" setting would have actually been way more interesting... but I assume that the studio figured there'd be more money to make by bringing back the good old gang... kind of like how Star Trek just wasn't a money-maker without James T Kirk, I guess.

-k

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Personally though, the part that disappointed me somewhat about this movie was the complete lack of discussion of what transpired between the end of Return of the Jedi and the start of The Force Awakens. What happened in the wake of the end of the Empire? What's this new Republic? How did the First Order gain enough power to build a planet-killing weapon?

Yup that was a big flaw. That stuff is so interesting to know, fans would have loved some exposition on it. Apparently all of that plus most of the plot holes are explained in the novelization...but you shouldn't have to read the novel to get the basics like this. Instead it just seems like they're lazy and were like "Ok so the the Empire is back under a new name, the Rebellion is back under a new name, and we'll destroy the new Republic halfway through the movie to get rid of that annoyance and tada! the galaxy is in the exact same situation at the beginning of A New Hope so we go ahead and can recycle the rest of the original trilogy (OT) now".

I was also disappointed that everything the main characters and the Rebellion fought for in the OT has been basically for nothing, and all reversed. The Empire is basically back, New Republic is destroyed, another Rebellion needed, Han and Leia broken up, Luke is still the last of the Jedi and instead of training his sister and growing the Jedi order again it all went to hell, and now a new "Supreme Leader" and Vader-clone are back making Deathstars. They fought for NOTHING!

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I think if there's anything that disappoints me about the new movie, it's the sense of been-there, done-that.

...

I think a movie set in the "Old Republic" setting would have actually been way more interesting... but I assume that the studio figured there'd be more money to make by bringing back the good old gang... kind of like how Star Trek just wasn't a money-maker without James T Kirk, I guess.

Ya, the recycled-ness is kind of a waste of the old characters we love...to go on NEW adventures. An Old Republic trilogy would be very cool, but I think they needed to do the sequels now while they have the chance. Virtually all the original actors (besides Alec Guinness and Peter Cushing) and key original behind-the-scenes crew (John Williams, Frank Oz, Ben Burtt etc.) are still alive & still able to act or do their jobs so this is really the last opportunity to have a trilogy where we'll see them all again acting together (since Han is dead). Not having Luke speak the whole movie sucks, and sucks we never saw Han and Luke interact again.

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Not Darth Vader... Darth Plagueis.

In Episode 3, Chancellor Palpatine/Darth Sidious tells Anakin about his master, Darth Plagueis, who was supposedly so powerful that he could create life or deny death. Palpatine tells Anakin that he killed Plagueis... but maybe he didn't. Can't be easy to kill a guy who can deny death, right?

The supposed evidence for this theory is the music. John Williams doesn't recycle music without a reason. In the original trilogy the Imperial March is strongly identified with Darth Vader, and in the prequels, we hear musical hints from the Imperial March when Anakin makes choices that lead him toward evil. Things like that.

So regarding the Snoke/Plagueis theory: the music we hear when we meet Supreme Leader Snoke is allegedly the same music that we heard when Palpatine was telling Anakin the legend of Plagueis, and that music appears nowhere else in the 7 movies. According to proponents of the theory, at least.

Whoa cool! Either that or Voldemort is back.

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I remember that, but couldn't the Empire have just done what the Nazis did in the Czech republic with the Skoda works......move and/or replicate the cloning facilities elsewhere?

I assumed they stopped making clones by A New Hope. But maybe Lucas changed the voices in the new Blu-Rays so the Stormtroopers sound like Jango Fett, I don't remember. It doesn;t make sense why the Republic needed the clones in the first place, didn't the Republic have thousands of member worlds, with i'd assume their own militaries? The Empire basically took over the Republic planets, lots of recruits available I'd imagine. But then they seemed pretty racist with only white humans serving the Empire so who knows.

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But I also don't think the Empire would have continued buying clones following the events in Revenge of the Sith, because they had no enemy to fight and they could just recruit soldiers from member planets. Luke talked about going to the Academy in Episode 4.

In A New Hope, Luke's Tatooine buddy Biggs had already gone to academy, then defected to the Rebellion and met up with Luke again right before the attack on the Death Star in a deleted scene added to the new editions of the movie. Biggs was a pilot during the the Death Star attack in that movie like Luke, so I assumed they both wanted to be in the academy as pilots.

In another deleted scene from the beginning of Ep.4 never added to the movie, Luke is talking to Biggs on Tatooine when Biggs comes back for a visit. From their talk it seems "the academy" and "the Empire's starfleet" are 2 different things since they both don't want to get drafted into the Imperial starfleet. But on Wookiepedia and in EU etc. it seems the "academy" is actually "the imperial academy". Confusing.

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It doesn;t make sense why the Republic needed the clones in the first place, didn't the Republic have thousands of member worlds, with i'd assume their own militaries? The Empire basically took over the Republic planets, lots of recruits available I'd imagine.

It makes perfect sense.....create large numbers of Storm Troopers based off an elite bounty hunter, that will be born loyal and healthy, and (IIRC) within a ~5 year span from hatching to deployment.......it is in effect what the Nazi's dreamed of with the SS (Lucas of course basing the Empire off a mash of the Romans and Nazis)......

Consider this, since logistics actually win wars, having an army made up of clones, you need only produce all their uniforms/ armor in one size, have on hand one blood type, and it could be assumed, fridges full of spare arms, legs, fingers etc if your troopers lost a part in combat.......

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Consider this, since logistics actually win wars, having an army made up of clones, you need only produce all their uniforms/ armor in one size, have on hand one blood type, and it could be assumed, fridges full of spare arms, legs, fingers etc if your troopers lost a part in combat.......

That's gross LOL but ya I guess it would make for some easily interchangeable parts. I guess Palpatine also wanted an obedient army he could easily control without something like a rebellion happening within it.

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As for the movie being a retread, I'm kind of glad that at least this first film was. I believe they were in a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation. Write a story with the old tropes and get criticized for being unoriginal. Write a story with all kinds of new angles and characters and get criticized for not respecting the source material. I think they went the write way here. Show some respect and reverence to the source material before going off their own way.

My prediction is that the trilogy finishes off with Ren sacrificing himself to save the galaxy and Rey. This will be a small step towards redemption for killing his father. I think the next film will build to that by having Rey train with Luke while Ren is also trained by Snok. At the end of the film, Snok betrays Ren and some more powerful evil is revealed. The final film then has Ren sacrifice himself to help defeat whatever this evil is.

It ends up being a retread, but there's a bit of room for creativity here.

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As for the movie being a retread, I'm kind of glad that at least this first film was. I believe they were in a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation. Write a story with the old tropes and get criticized for being unoriginal. Write a story with all kinds of new angles and characters and get criticized for not respecting the source material. I think they went the write way here. Show some respect and reverence to the source material before going off their own way.

There's no doubt that writing (or making, more generally) a Star Wars movie is unbelievably hard because of what Star Wars means to so many people and because fans were already burned hard from the prequels. I don't envy any of the people working on these sequels. It may have gotten to Christopher Arndt (who was originally signed on to write the script but then left the project), it was never revealed why he really left. The pressure is crazy.

I disagree that they did the right thing. Yes you have to respect the original subject matter, but in the right ways. To make a great Star Wars movie (or book, tv show etc.) you obviously need high-quality production like anything else (great characters, actors, dialogue, directing, special FX etc.), but you have to know what MAKES Star Wars feel like Star Wars. There's an essence that you need to capture, and you can write any kind of story at any time-period in the Star Wars universe that "feels" like Star Wars as long as you capture that essence, which can be hard to nail down. But the essence of SW isn't villains in black masks with a robotic voice, droids carrying secrets, heroes from desert planets, space-station super-weapons, X-wing trench runs etc...it's more general things like good vs evil (or light side vs dark side, or Jedi vs dark jedi/Sith), space ships flying around shooting each other, lightsabers, the Force, fantastical planets, droids, friendship (friends adventuring around together to beat the bad guys) etc. Of course some of these things have to make logical sense and echo back to previous movies based on the time period they're set in (ie: the specific kinds of vehicles, weapons, alien species etc.), but for Disney to think they needed to copy virtually everything from the original movies and give them a new coat of paint and different names and think that's what makes a good Star Wars movie is ridiculous. It shows absolute fear on their part to do anything different or creative. Luckily the quality of the production was so good in Force Awakens (something the prequels lacked) and captured a good deal of the essence (even if unoriginal) that people still enjoyed the film.

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... villains in black masks with a robotic voice, droids carrying secrets, heroes from desert planets, space-station super-weapons, X-wing trench runs ...

I liked the movie... but it is quite sad that they had to steal so many plot-lines directly from the original. It comes off as amateurish writing. They did a great job of pulling the movie off despite the amateurish writing though. I think that's a testament to the director and the actors involved, imo.

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