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Topaz

Ontario energy problem

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Ontario also has an energy problem but its a bit different is the HIGH cost of hydro and I research newspapers online of Windsor, Chatham-Kent, London and Sarnia and the most complains are in Chatham-Kent, who does have the most wind turbines in the province. I"m also wondering if the high bills are just Hydro One customers or does the GTA also have high bills? One senior in Chatham-Kent complain when he opened his bills to find an increase of $100.00 when he wasn't living a home for a month because he was in the hospital. Many seniors may be forced to sell their homes, and some may not be able to find other lodging if there is a rush for apartments. The province better come up with something to make hydro bills reasonable. http://www.windsorstar.com/business/ontario+hydro+bills+will+rise+year+even+after+debt+charge+eliminated/11623922/story.html

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I live in Cambridge, and our rate is 19.332/kw hour.

I looked it up for comparison, and people in Winnipeg pay just over 9.02/kwh.

It is no wonder the manufacturing sector is fleeing Ontario.

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Nah, this is the sunny ways of Gerald Butts.

This is how we create the fourth industrial revolution, through green energy and selfies. Your feeble mind just cannot comprehend the vast wisdom and foresight of Ontario's premier and Canada's PM. Fortunately, Notley will help spread sunny ways to Alberta.

Also, manufacturing fled Ontario due to dutch disease. Because the Canadian dollar is super overvalued at 70 cents per US dollar. So it's all Harper's fault for putting all Canada's eggs in one basket, the energy sector, even though net exports due to energy products account for only 2.9% of GDP. I guess that means that Australia and Norway, the two countries with the highest standard of living (human development index), both of which have much larger energy exporting sectors as a percentage of their GDP, are putting all of their eggs in half a basket. We can't have Canada be like Australia or Norway, that will get in the way of the fourth industrial revolution.

Edited by -1=e^ipi

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Nah, this is the sunny ways of Gerald Butts.

I guess that means that Australia and Norway, the two countries with the highest standard of living (human development index), both of which have much larger energy exporting sectors as a percentage of their GDP, are putting all of their eggs in half a basket. We can't have Canada be like Australia or Norway, that will get in the way of the fourth industrial revolution.

Please don't let facts get in the way of a good anti-Harper narrative. Yep.....Sunny Ways!

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I live in Cambridge, and our rate is 19.332/kw hour.

I looked it up for comparison, and people in Winnipeg pay just over 9.02/kwh.

It is no wonder the manufacturing sector is fleeing Ontario.

are you not..... average? Do you not have access to smart-metering? Wait now, if you're still a regulated customer, if you're 'average', whether Time of Use (smart metered) or Tiered Pricing, your average unit supply cost is 10.7/kWh. (Ontario Energy Board --- Nov 1, 2015 - Oct 31, 2016):

YfPr9eA.gif

re: Regulated Tiered Consumption => First 1000 kWh/month Block: 9.9 ¢ /kWh, additional kWh’s used over 1000 kWh/month: 11.6¢ /kW

are you a non-regulated customer? Did you sign a contract with some retailer?

if you're still a regulated customer (notwithstanding where you got your number from), don't you think you're missing a few details... just a few particulars, hey!

.

Edited by waldo

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I live in Cambridge, and our rate is 19.332/kw hour.

I looked it up for comparison, and people in Winnipeg pay just over 9.02/kwh.

It is no wonder the manufacturing sector is fleeing Ontario.

Around $04.7/kwh in Alberta at present.

Locked in contract rates are about $0 8.5/kwh

Also, manufacturing fled Ontario due to dutch disease. Because the Canadian dollar is super overvalued at 70 cents per US dollar.

I suspect that paying assembly line workers $70K plus benefits plus pensions may have has a small influence too.

Do you not have access to smart-metering?

Don't worry, it will be universal soon in ON if it is not already. The greatest scam ever run by ON HYdro was conning everrybody into thinking residential smart meters/TOU billing was ever about anything except long term protection of the corporate bottom line. Hydro simply cannot lose with this arrangement! But residential consumers certainly can, will and do. It is not a business, it is simply a relentless fleecing.

One senior in Chatham-Kent complain when he opened his bills to find an increase of $100.00 when he wasn't living a home for a month because he was in the hospital. Many seniors may be forced to sell their homes, and some may not be able to find other lodging if there is a rush for apartments.

Renting an apartment won't provide any relief from whacking great electricity bills, the landlords of course just pass the cost on with increased rents.

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Don't worry, it will be universal soon in ON if it is not already. The greatest scam ever run by ON HYdro was conning everrybody into thinking residential smart meters/TOU billing was ever about anything except long term protection of the corporate bottom line. Hydro simply cannot lose with this arrangement! But residential consumers certainly can, will and do. It is not a business, it is simply a relentless fleecing.

that number MLW member 'drummindiver' provided is woefully lacking in details... very relevant details per the graphic I provided. Odd that you don't comment on the graphic's presentation of the average regulated price (whether TOU or tiered) for an Ontario residential customer - that 10.7/kWh. TOU smart meter based pricing provides all that personal control "libertarian types" so pine for... wassup with your slammin' it, man!

as you can see from that provided graphic, 64% of consumption for Ontario residents with smart meters occurs in the off-peak designated hours... you know leveraging lowest price AND conserving energy as, I'm sure you know, it costs Ontario big time to increase electricity output to meet/extend beyond the peak hour output threshold... you do know that, right?

that Alberta figure you provide has, of course, not always been that low... ebbs & flows, ebbs & flows! But hey now, are you buying into all that industry buzz about Alberta's electricity costs "skyrocketing" over the decision to cut the coal-cord? You know, like Ontario did. You're not one of those Coal-Is-King guys, are you?

.

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Your numbers are off. I do not know where you got this chart but it is wrong

http://www.ontario-hydro.com/index.php?page=current_rates

wr...wr...wrong? How so? You can make a statement/claim but you can't be bothered to actually say... how so?

- your linked reference TOU and Tiered Pricing rates are exacto-mundo to what I presented

- if you're wanting to leverage your linked reference snapshot 152 person sample to present "sample" consumption rates for the respective TOU periods... are they that different to the point you would presume to correct the waldo?

your 152 person snapshot sample @Off-peak: 63.4%; Mid-peak: 16.0%; On-peak: 20.5% versus

my provided summary graphic @Off-peak: 64%; Mid-peak: 18.0%; On-peak: 18%

your 152 person snapshot sample @average of $10.32 kWh versus

my provided summary graphic @average of $10.70 kWh

where's the/your beef, hey?

.

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Can I suggest that everyone posting numbers actually verify they are comparing apples to apples...

For Ontario, the electricity prices posted by Waldo are only half the bill, there are also distribution costs. Worst, much of the distribution cost is fixed, meaning that the less electricity you use, the higher your real cost per kWh.

I have followed this very closely for about 10 years, reading regulatory documents, and tracking predicted costs and my real costs in a spreadsheet over the same period. I can validate that for someone in rural Ontario, the actual cost is around 18-22c / KWh. The variation comes from that fixed cost. Urbanites get off a little cheaper.

I don't believe Manitoba has the same system & the 9c / kWh is the total cost there, but I'm not positive about this, Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As an aside - I can't believe the crap that gets spewed by folks of all political positions on MLW who don't of a clue about what they are talking about. What's the point of trying to win an argument by spewing facts that are blatantly wrong. Would it not be a more useful and interesting place if we trying to learn from each other, even if end we don't "win" the argument.

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I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but some of the cost is upkeep on the Nukes and the other is definitely the cost of putting up those wind turbines and if for some reason those wind turbines are cancelled after a contract is signed, the wind companies still get their money. I'm not sure how smart those smart meters are but if its plug in to an outlet it using hydro. The provinces and the federals want seniors to stay in their homes, so they are going to have do something to make it easier for them to do it and than means those seniors whose incomes are just over the low income class. BTW, the delivery charge and the HST charge is more than the hydro I used.

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Can I suggest that everyone posting numbers actually verify they are comparing apples to apples...

For Ontario, the electricity prices posted by Waldo are only half the bill, there are also distribution costs. Worst, much of the distribution cost is fixed, meaning that the less electricity you use, the higher your real cost per kWh.

no shyte Sherlock! When the discussion is quoted electricity cost/kWh (as in energy consumed)... that's what is discussed and presented... as in the immediate preceding posts. As for the "full bill deal", in past MLW threads I've spoken to exactly that and presented examples of the complete details that appear on a bill makeup including the charges related to delivering energy (whether that's delivery per se, or administration charges, or 'rate riders' or local access fees, etc.). Other than the actual respective charges, there is nothing uniquely different here between provinces in terms of energy consumed cost/kWh versus all other manner of bill charges that reflect upon delivery. When one is speaking to regulated versus unregulated cost of energy consumed pricing... just what other than the public posted energy company/retailer record of electricity cost/kWh do you think is being discussed?

if... if... your approach is simply to take the total cost on a bill and divide it by the total kWh electricity used... that's not your comparing "apples to apples"... is it? Cause that's certainly not comparing either the actual per/kWh cost of energy consumed or the makeup of charges that reflect upon delivery of that energy - yes?

.

As an aside - I can't believe the crap that gets spewed by folks of all political positions on MLW who don't of a clue about what they are talking about. What's the point of trying to win an argument by spewing facts that are blatantly wrong. Would it not be a more useful and interesting place if we trying to learn from each other, even if end we don't "win" the argument.

as an aside - I can' believe the crap that gets spewed by folks of all political positions on MLW who profess to have a clue about what they are talking about, but fail to convey their clue properly, and/or posture from 'a high', and/or... actually haven't much of a..... clue.

.

Edited by waldo

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Topaz, you are correct, there is all sorts of costs buried in the price of electricity, some totally valid, probably not but governments have played so many games of moving stuff between our taxes and the electricity bills I'm not sure anyone really understands what we are really paying for at this point. (Whether you agree with the sale of Ontario Hydro or not, it should at least provide clarity as to the real costs & prices going forward).

It's going to get even worse for those on fixed/low incomes, as the OEB has decided that it is more fair for the distribution costs to be fixed rather than per KWh. This essentially means that low electricity users will end up subsidizing the higher electricity users (of which I'm one). I cannot understand their reasoning on this one. (Distribution costs won't be fully fixed, but a much higher percentage of them will be).

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I can't figure out how to quote or copy and paste for some reason, so don't hold that against me...

Waldo, I don't follow your paragraph starting with if..if

Why is it not valid to take the total bill and divide it by KhW used to get the actual cost of electricity (at least in Ontario)?

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I can't figure out how to quote or copy and paste for some reason, so don't hold that against me...

Waldo, I don't follow your paragraph starting with if..if

Why is it not valid to take the total bill and divide it by KhW used to get the actual cost of electricity (at least in Ontario)?

Well distribution costs are area dependent.....taking into account line sizes, runs, load/generator locations, infrastructure age, etc. Distribution costs in NB vs. ON are completely different.

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Well distribution costs are area dependent.....taking into account line sizes, runs, load/generator locations, infrastructure age, etc. Distribution costs in NB vs. ON are completely different.

of course! And then there's political based policy related decisions of current... and former long past governments, that can indirectly affect energy per/kWh consumption related energy company/retailer public posted costs and/or reflect separately upon additional costs that appear on bills.

.

Edited by waldo

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Bob and Waldo

Agreed. Costs of production and distribution are very different for different places, and governments have played all sort of silly games that make the real costs all but impossible to determine. However, unless I'm completely confused, that wasn't what this thread was about. This thread was about the cost to the end consumer of electricity. The end consumer doesn't care about any of that, they just care what the cost is to them.

This is where I'm lost by Waldo's response. As far as the cost of electricity to the end consumer, why can't we get that cost just by dividing the bill (minus the tax to get rid of that variable), but the number of kWh.

I'm honestly trying to understand, why this doesn't make sense.

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Agreed. Costs of production and distribution are very different for different places, and governments have played all sort of silly games that make the real costs all but impossible to determine. However, unless I'm completely confused, that wasn't what this thread was about. This thread was about the cost to the end consumer of electricity. The end consumer doesn't care about any of that, they just care what the cost is to them.

This is where I'm lost by Waldo's response. As far as the cost of electricity to the end consumer, why can't we get that cost just by dividing the bill (minus the tax to get rid of that variable), but the number of kWh.

I'm honestly trying to understand, why this doesn't make sense.

I thought you were the guy who pronounced a want for "apples-to-apples" comparison! You've just acknowledged the distinctions respective provinces hold... and you truly think comparing total bill costs, province-to-province, gives you any semblance of representative comparison - "apples-to-apples"? And you're perplexed over this? You can certainly play up the "high cost of Ontario electricity bills", but unless you get into the complete details of the bill makeup, just what are you speaking to... other than cost without regard to just what that cost is based upon... reflects upon.

comparisons typically done are city focused and present energy consumption per/kWh rates... I would expect for the very reasons being highlighted here. Unless you're prepared to get into the real complexities of what non-consumption delivery charges pay for... and unless you're capable of articulating what aspects of those delivery charges (or energy consumption costs for that matter) reflect upon government policy, particularly current versus past, just what are speaking to... other than a cost you've presented without regard to explaining it.

now, again, in the past spurred on by the relentless "whine/beeatch fest" (aka unsubstantiated statements/claims), that the high price for Ontario electricity can be attributed to the recent Ontario Liberal government's 'Green Energy' program, I presented an assortment of waldoInfoSessions to offer clarification and sourced info/data. For example, albeit now a couple of years dated, the company "Power Advisory LLC" has provided an assortment of relevant analysis including complete breakout details of a typical Ontario residential electricity bill... fully attributed; specifically, for example, from prior MLW posts where cited reference was provided:

=> the {global adjustment} GA. The GA is one of two components of the wholesale supply cost, with the other being the market price of electricity (the Hourly Ontario Energy Price, or HOEP). The GA varies inversely with HOEP because of the way that nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, gas and other plants are paid: when HOEP is low and generating plants earn less from the market, they are topped up out of the GA. As a result, any change in HOEP is approximately offset by an inverse change in the GA , with virtually no net change in consumers’ bills.

Given the inverse relationship between the GA and HOEP, it is more useful to analyze and forecast the wholesale supply cost, which is the sum of the two, rather than each separately, because consumers pay the sum. But even this is not the full picture because consumers’ bills include a number of other components, including transmission, distribution and regulated charges. The Debt Recovery Charge of 0.7¢/kWh ($7/MWh), for example, is largely due to Ontario’s nuclear plants and their stranded debt, but is not included in the wholesale supply cost. Power Advisory estimates that wind and solar each contribute approximately 7% of the wholesale supply cost, and 4% of a typical consumers’ total electricity bill.

=> In 2005 the Ontario Government instituted the Global Adjustment (GA) charge as a means to collect from Ontario customers any shortfalls in the costs of generation contracts or regulated rates. Per a 2011-2012 Ontario Energy Board Report, since 2006 a breakdown of the sources behind GA charges has been:

- 45 percent is attributable to the Bruce Power and OPG nuclear units

- 28 percent is attributable to OEFC‟s NUG contracts and contingency financial support for OPG‟s coal-fired generation

- 13 percent is attributable to CES and early-mover gas-fired generation contracts

- 8 percent is attributable to other sources such as demand response and payments for the output of OPG‟s prescribed hydroelectric assets

- 6 percent is attributable to renewable assets, primarily wind and solar resources

=> ... electricity supply costs account for about half of the total average monthly bill of $154.42 for 2012. Delivery costs made up 30% of the total bill, taxes 12%, and the rest was split up between Regulatory Charges and the Debt Retirement Charge.

Of the supply costs, about half (49%) is paid to nuclear generators, 18% is for generation from hydroelectric sources, 15% is for gas-fired generation, and 6% is for coal. Wind is 5% of the total supply cost and solar, biomass and other sources make up the remaining 7%

now, as I highlighted, those prior referenced MLW posts are from late 2013... with one referencing particulars of a 2012 Ontario representative residential electricity bill. If one were truly interested in meaningful analysis of current-day Ontario electricity pricing, particularly if its changed significantly in the succeeding 2 years or so, I'd sure be keen to see that presented here!

.

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Waldo, prices are generally determined by the marginal cost of production, not the average cost of production. If a government restricts the expansion of all forms of energy except renewables, then the marginal cost of production will tend to be disproportionately reflective of renewables.

Of course, given the low penetration, variability issues aren't that big... yet. It is expensive to store energy over long periods of time, which you would need to do if you want to create a mostly solar/wind energy source. The marginal cost of renewables accelerates with the percentage of renewable penetration.

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So what are the chances of higher transmission rates when those 6 other companies buy up the 60% and then hike rates and since they out # the Ontario government 40%, we (consumers) could really be in trouble. Yet, both, the provincial and feds keep saying seniors should stay in their homes.

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wr...wr...wrong? How so? You can make a statement/claim but you can't be bothered to actually say... how so?

- your linked reference TOU and Tiered Pricing rates are exacto-mundo to what I presented

- if you're wanting to leverage your linked reference snapshot 152 person sample to present "sample" consumption rates for the respective TOU periods... are they that different to the point you would presume to correct the waldo?

your 152 person snapshot sample @Off-peak: 63.4%; Mid-peak: 16.0%; On-peak: 20.5% versus

my provided summary graphic @Off-peak: 64%; Mid-peak: 18.0%; On-peak: 18%

your 152 person snapshot sample @average of $10.32 kWh versus

my provided summary graphic @average of $10.70 kWh

where's the/your beef, hey?

.

Your right. I was wrong.

Didn't think that average was right. I thought it was higher than it is.

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Of the supply costs, about half (49%) is paid to nuclear generators, 18% is for generation from hydroelectric sources, 15% is for gas-fired generation, and 6% is for coal. Wind is 5% of the total supply cost and solar, biomass and other sources make up the remaining 7%

.

Is that the approx make-up of our generation supply? Were you trying to say that renewables were a better deal?

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Is that the approx make-up of our generation supply? Were you trying to say that renewables were a better deal?

those numbers reflected on an earlier 2013 post, now dated. Recent update per Ontario’s Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO), a breakdown review of the Ontario supply mix in 2015, 2014 and 2013... coal completely out of the mix now:

Screen-Shot-2016-01-13-at-12.43.29-PM.pn

IESO provides the following caveat attachment to that summary graphic... which, according to some solar proponents, is missing over 90% of the solar electricity generated in Ontario as it connects to the 'local distribution system' - a distinction between centralized and more decentralized grids... suggesting that, in total, solar accounts for ~2% of total generation:

While the table above captures supply connected to the high-voltage transmission system, Ontario is also experiencing rapid growth of smaller scale distribution-connected, or embedded, generation. At the end of 2015, there were nearly 3,000 megawatts (MW) of IESO-contracted embedded generation helping to meet Ontario's electricity needs – an increase of approximately 20 percent from the 2,479 MW of embedded generation available at the end of 2014.

.

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IESO provides the following caveat attachment to that summary graphic... which, according to some solar proponents, is missing over 90% of the solar electricity generated in Ontario as it connects to the 'local distribution system' - a distinction between centralized and more decentralized grids... suggesting that, in total, solar accounts for ~2% of total generatio

So nuclear is 60% of mix but <40% of the cost whereas solar is still costing more than its mix. When do you think it breaks even, then when does it go +20%, then at what point does it top out? Edited by Bob Macadoo

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