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taxme

Attawapaskit Indian nation.

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Accountability Now, you keep saying the funds are there, yet a federal commission on the issues says they're not. I'll let you take a wild stab at which conclusion I find more credible.

I have asked you multiple times to provide back up to the claims you make yet here we are again with nothing. Perhaps the only credibility you should worry about is your own.

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Ontario tax grab behind Attawapiskat's woes

Things could have been different at Attawapiskat. According to Gallagher, the De Beers company and the chief and council in Attawapiskat had worked out an agreement in 2007, based on the provincial tax rebate of five per cent as a northern mine and the fact that Ontario agreed to a 10-per-cent tax on diamond production. This allowed De Beers and the First Nation to negotiate an Impact Benefits Agreement (IBA).

However, a change to the provincial budget saw De Beers lose its remote mine status, and the tax on diamonds raised to 13 per cent. Less profit for the company meant fewer funds to be shared under the IBA. In effect, the provincial governments tax grab pulled the rug out from the IBA, which dearly cost the people of Attawapiskat.

As Gallagher wrote: Critically needed economic development money was being siphoned off in a last minute tax reversal.

The tax grab by the Dalton McGuinty government set back all the resource projects in the Ring of Fire area and created the climate of distrust between the First Nations and the province. So when the media lament the missing economy in Attawapiskat, they dont have to look further than to Queens Park.

Of course De Beers could have honoured their agreement anyway, out of their massive profits!

.

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To pretend that tax money is behind the Attawapiskat problems is absurd. You can't develop economically when you're completely closed off and isolated from the rest of the country.

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To pretend that tax money is behind the Attawapiskat problems is absurd. You can't develop economically when you're completely closed off and isolated from the rest of the country.

You can if there are diamonds underneath you.

.

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You can if there are diamonds underneath you.

.

Then tax dollars aren't needed.

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Then tax dollars aren't needed.

Shady if you read the link you'll know what you're talking about ... maybe.

.

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However, a change to the provincial budget saw De Beers lose its remote mine status, and the tax on diamonds raised to 13 per cent. Less profit for the company meant fewer funds to be shared under the IBA. In effect, the provincial governments tax grab pulled the rug out from the IBA, which dearly cost the people of Attawapiskat.

jacee...how much money was 'pulled' from this IBA by the province? Do you have that number. Just as importantly, why did the Province give Attawapiskat 4.4 million in funding for social assistance and 150k for daycare in 2011?

http://www.attawapiskat.org/wp-content/uploads/2011-Consolidated-Schedule-of-Programs.pdf

Of course De Beers could have honoured their agreement anyway, out of their massive profits!

They did honour the agreement which was based on the taxes imposed by the Province of Ontario. I'm sorry that you don't like the way the agreement was structured however that agreement was signed by both parties with the understanding of the risks involved. I guess agreements only work when they benefit your side...right?

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I still think the tribe could make billions if they shared the secret of how to go without eating for months and gain weight!

When you can't afford nutritious food, you eat more cheap 'food' (refined carbs and fat - KD) to try to fill the constant hunger.

Do you get it now?

.

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jacee...how much money was 'pulled' from this IBA by the province? Do you have that number.

Why?

You don't want to do the math?

Just as importantly, why did the Province give Attawapiskat 4.4 million in funding for social assistance and 150k for daycare in 2011?

http://www.attawapiskat.org/wp-content/uploads/2011-Consolidated-Schedule-of-Programs.pdf

I don't know. Look it up and enlighten us.

They did honour the agreement which was based on the taxes imposed by the Province of Ontario. I'm sorry that you don't like the way the agreement was structured however that agreement was signed by both parties with the understanding of the risks involved. I guess agreements only work when they benefit your side...right?

I guess it explains some economic difficulties.

The province gives and then province takes away. End result: no improvement.

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Edited by jacee

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Why?

You don't want to do the math?

You made the claim....you do the math. Which I know is VERY difficult for you and thus you deflect.

I don't know. Look it up and enlighten us.

I threw out an honest question and clearly you can't answer it. All I know is that you are ranting and raving about how the province has taken money from them, yet you can't tell me how much they have taken NOR can you justify the fact they actually received a whack load in 2011 which could possibly be an annual thing.

The province gives and then province takes away. End result: no improvement.

Again your understanding of the treaties fails you. The treaties and subsequent Indian Act are with the Federal government and not provincial. Any money given by the province is external to that and is not OWED but rather given for a reason.

Even in this case, the Province didn't take the money from Attawapiskat, they took it from DeBeers. However, they did give Attawapisakt 4.5 million for some reason.

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In more recent news:

Ottawa mulls recouping $1.8-million in housing funds from Attawapiskat

Ottawa is weighing whether to recoup more than $1.8-million from Attawapiskat First Nation for unsubstantiated housing spending uncovered in a 2014 audit of the reserve – a northern Ontario community today grappling with a suicide crisis that leaders say is linked, in part, to a housing shortage.

Attawapiskat’s 2014 financial statement noted the “potentially repayable” $1,842,260 in housing-related transactions for the fiscal years 2006 through 2011, but said the band did not agree with the audit findings and was in discussions with Ottawa “with the expectation the amount will be reduced in whole or in part.” The First Nation’s 2015 financial statement does not mention the status of the discussions, but Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada said the government has not recouped any of the money.


The department, in the meantime, told The Globe and Mail that it provided the community with $5.4-million in housing funding that year. The department said the discrepancy was due to the fact that $3.6-million in housing-related funding – $1.2-million to convert school portables into 18 housing units, and $2.4-million to buy, transport and install 13 pre-fabricated homes – had been counted in the First Nation’s statement as part of infrastructure revenue.

INAC has provided Attawapiskat with more than $15-million in housing funding since 2008. The CMHC has also provided the First Nation with subsidies for rental housing and forgivable loans to address major deficiencies, including electrical, heating and plumbing, a spokesman said in an e-mail.

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Jacee ,the ONT government screws everyone, not just the natives.

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For those who can't understand what is "wrong" on reserves:

Quote: "and $2.4-million to buy, transport and install 13 pre-fabricated homes – "

$185k each for a home being paid to an outside contractor when you have thousands of unemployed sitting around waiting for

the Great White Provider to "solve their housing problem".

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When you can't afford nutritious food, you eat more cheap 'food' (refined carbs and fat - KD) to try to fill the constant hunger.Do you get it now?

Deliberately misunderstanding someone's post is a poor way to present your apparently jaundiced views.

We all know that the phony 'hunger strike' undertaken by 'Chief' Teresa Spence was just that-a cynical attempt to portray herself as suffering for her people when in fact all she did was stuff her face in private-as evidenced by her not losing a gram.

How any sane person can claim otherwise is beyond my understanding- she is as phony a a 3 dollar bill.

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...

How any sane person can claim otherwise is beyond my understanding- she is as phony a a 3 dollar bill.

What !!!!??!!! I just got a 3 dollar bill as change from a $20 to-day when I bought some smokes and some gas on the reserve. You mean its bogus?

Edited by Big Guy

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First, I suggest you read Scott Mayers' and Accountability Now's posts, as I imagine you have. Collectively, they have a fairly accurate picture of the situation.

The idea of there being "nations within a nation" is simply preposterous and unworkable. AND: Canada is pretty much ignorant of what this means and how to deal with it. This thread is a perfect analogy: most of the discussion has been railing over what the politically correct name for aboriginals should...or MUST be. Who gives a rat's ass? There are serious problems that simply go on ignored while we idiotically dispute pure BS.

We, as a nation have created a dependent society of persons isolated from the physical balance of Canada, and by "funding" this model, have enabled a ruling class who are skilled at exploiting this situation to their personal benefit (I/we call them "per diem men"). We did a study at one point when trying to help one particular group of aboriginals, and 20-odd years ago, adding up ALL of the programmes that were to benefit treaty Indians the total was far closer to $20,000 per capita, not $9k. Our estimate, though, was that less than 1/3 of that ever saw a living, breathing aboriginal. The vast majority disappeared into what we called the "Indian Industry" - the incredible maze of government employees and preferred consultants who soaked up most of the money. The little bit that did dribble through was then placed in the hands of Chief and Council, and you can believe the level of corruption and incompetence was staggering (and I assume still is).

If you ever bother to actually GO to a remote reserve (and I have spent years living among them) you would usually find that there was only a tiny couple of businesses on reserve: always a Bay store (now called "Northern" stores) and some kind of storefront of a token band business of some kind. ALL of the service businesses that we all take for granted that ANY remote community would have to support life on that reserve are simply not there. Nobody is fixing the cars, trucks, boats and snow machines that litter every front yard. Nobody is running a carpentry shop to build or repair structures, no electricians are there to keep the lights on, no plumbing shop is there to keep the toilets flushing, and on it goes. WHY?

Simple. In the rest of this fantastic nation, people are pretty much on their own to earn a living and considered to have "failed" if they require the state to care for them. So, we generally earn some money by looking at what we can do to earn some money and do so. On reserve, we (and, yes, I DO blame the Royal "WE" for perpetuating this problem) have developed this model where these remote communities exist by some kind of declaration, and are "funded" by handing money to band and council. So, what little services DO exist happen by accident as once those with pretty much unaccountable access to the "funding" buy themselves and their family new trucks and homes, take a trip to Vegas and pretty much ignore the ridiculous reality that is right on their doorstep. IF any services are provided (and as you can see from video coverage of homes falling to pieces and schools burned down and replaced with hockey rinks), they are provided by the band - as there is simply no local economy outside of booze and drug distribution that is not communally controlled by council.

(on edit) I am ignoring outfitters for now - another can of worms.

Is there a solution? Sure. And it is very simple. If you really want to see "sellf government" on reserve, and you agree that Canada owes something more than the very basic allowances within treaties to aboriginal persons, then just simple calculate that value and write a check to each person with a treaty number. Then, their leaders can do as our off-reserve leaders and governments must do, and tax back what they need to provide the services that each community believes needs to be provided. Accountability then goes to the level where it belongs - within the community.

Worth noting: there are non-aboriginal communities all over the North, and they seem to do just fine being similarly removed from the comforts, conveniences and services of the South. Why do we not want to model remote reserves after those successful communities instead of trying to mimic some inner city core welfare community???? (hint: partly because there would be no benefit to the "Indian Industry" - that has now expanded to include news media).

Before someone tries to dismiss me as another Southern partisan junkie: as I have mentioned, I lived and done business in and out of the North and on reserves for two decades in the past. I have had the Forest Gump opportunity to discuss matters with a good friend when he was in office and after his retirement as Treaty Commissioner (we seldom agreed, but we remain friends) and my children are the last generation from my wife's side of the family eligible for status - which they refuse to seek.

"Indian Industry" is right. Billions have been blown on all this Indian stuff, and what do we see for it today? Absolutely nothing. Just more talk and more waste of taxpayer's tax dollars. The Indian Affairs outfit must be abolished, and the average Indian needs to be told to go west young man/woman, and start to take care of your own self. Stop relying on me a taxpayer to keep paying for your whining. Indians have had plenty of years and opportunities to be one of the most wealthy people in Canada. They blew it. As a white man I am tired of paying for others keep who don't deserve it or for those who are always running around asking the government to apologize for what happened to them in the past, and what others in that past have supposedly done to them. As a white paying taxpayer, I am always blamed for something for something I had nothing to do with. I am fed up.

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When you can't afford nutritious food, you eat more cheap 'food' (refined carbs and fat - KD) to try to fill the constant hunger.

Do you get it now?

.

Here we go again. There are plenty of Caucasians in this country that are forced to eat non-nutritious foods also. So, what is your point?

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"Indian Industry" is right. Billions have been blown on all this Indian stuff, and what do we see for it today?

"All this Indian stuff" shows a particular lack of knowledge of the topic.

Indians have had plenty of years and opportunities to be one of the most wealthy people in Canada.

After being barred from any legal avenues for about a hundred years, they are just now beginning to reap the real benefit of their Aboriginal land rights and have the opportunity to become appropriately wealthy.

As a white man I am tired of paying for others keep who don't deserve it or for those who are always running around asking the government to apologize for what happened to them in the past, and what others in that past have supposedly done to them. As a white paying taxpayer, I am always blamed for something for something I had nothing to do with. I am fed up.

Wahwahwah! You want some cheese with that?

You're pretty thin skinned and weak kneed.

And kind of obsessed with your whiteness ... what's up with that?

It takes strong people to stand up and acknowledge the wrongs that were done that we have benefited from.

And it takes a lot of court wins for Indigenous Peoples to take their rightful place as wealthy landowners, but that's happening now.

It'll take some time, but their opportunity is now.

.

Edited by jacee

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"All this Indian stuff" shows a particular lack of knowledge of the topic.

After being barred from any legal avenues for about a hundred years, they are just now beginning to reap the real benefit of their Aboriginal land rights and have the opportunity to become appropriately wealthy.

Wahwahwah! You want some cheese with that?

You're pretty thin skinned and weak kneed.

And kind of obsessed with your whiteness ... what's up with that?

It takes strong people to stand up and acknowledge the wrongs that were done that we have benefited from.

And it takes a lot of court wins for Indigenous Peoples to take their rightful place as wealthy landowners, but that's happening now.

It'll take some time, but their opportunity is now.

.

I think that I have a pretty good knowledge of how this Indian Affairs outfit has been wasting tax dollars for decades. And yes indeed, I am obsessed with all of the waste of tax dollars and all the foolishness that has been going on for decades by our politicians. Indian bands in this country have been receiving billions of tax dollars over many decades, and there should have been plenty of opportunities for them by now to have gotten out of their rut. Their leaders just abused any and all chances for them to get out of the mess that they have found themselves in all these years. One does not have to be an expert on Indian affairs but one can also have an opinion and point of view as to what nonsense has been going on for decades.

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I agree partly with taxme's understanding of what he calls, "Indian Industry". But I think that this might be more generalized as "Bureaucracy"; and the nature of employment within these act as incentives in themselves where the original intent to serve certain people are lost at the expense of those they employ to achieve such goals. The argument against funding such ideals is thus just the same problem argued against supporting organizations meant to serve ANY ideal as it is often lost in the costs associated with the people presuming to be helping when they are actually profiting BY the helping. This happens in a lot of social services whereby the staffs hired lack voluntary concern to their cause except as what it represents to their particular jobs. They tend to ignore the GOAL of the entity or mistaken it as intending to serve themselves.

(This is similar to unions of some capital entity which complains of job losses in some region without concern to the actual business or industry entity. What good is it to demand some mining company, for instance, to persist in some community when the oar the mining company served has run out? Job preservation is an absurd argument if the entity of the industry in question is unable to sustain itself.)

I also agree that Natives have had a raw deal. But this is NOT due to ALL non-Native people. That is, just because you are 'white' does not assure that you had some OWNERSHIP to any portion of discrimination that had occurred to Native people of the past. In fact, like I've said before, I believe that those within specific established historically inherited families of wealth whose ancestors profited upon these should be specifically most accountable BUT have the political power to be able to distribute the loss due to their guilt upon the rest of society through taxation instead.

Technically, many of those "reserves" are non-sustainable in our modern economic environment. But these were set up initially like wild-life reserves expecting such 'animals' to maintain themselves in their 'primitive' or natural lifestyle. This was understood for the Natives that this meant they were to presume their lifestyle 'as though' our capitalistic (property-ownership) ideals were non-existent to them. But those NOW do not, nor should expect to, live as their ancestors did in exclusion of modernity as the ancestors of Canada had formally "negotiated" as Treaties in perpetuity. This is a crime against both Natives AND all others in Canada, except for those particularly profiting upon maintaining this. For those like many of the Liberal Party, their Catholic (Anglican & French/Roman) dominance owed by their common wealth gained from the past, is an ideal scapegoat to justify preserving it in law, just as specific other select cultures, as a means to prevent themselves being held accountable and why the Multicultural concept was derived. It was to Constitutionally SAVE these wealthy inheritors of questionable pasts. Their only justification to supporting the Aboriginal as an accepted culture Constitutionally, assures that they always have a means to distribute their own personal debts to the debts incurred by their injustice against the Natives in the past that is being felt continuously in the present.

We need to demand a dismantling of those 'Reserves', and require abolishing Multiculturalism in LAW, to redress violations against the Natives and to hold the actual perpetrators to account, namely, but not entirely exclusively, the Ontario/Quebec establishments most specifically being protected by hiding behind their religious constitutional and preserved cultures. The Churches, for instance, not the GENERAL population of 'white' males, are the ones responsible for any Residential school abuses. But the way our system protects these institutes, transfers their responsibility to the rest. It is also an accidental smokescreen that occurs where white (males usually) are assumed as some opposing class complaining for their own injustice as if they were neo-Nazis attempting to disguise themselves as victims. They ARE becoming victimized by what gets falsely assumed as their 'ownership' in past grievances. And those of you falling for it are successfully conned by that smokescreen which preserves the very persistent problems against the Natives.

And note that if any misunderstanding appears 'against' the Natives here, this too has to be recognized sincerely of others given their circumstances.

Edited by Scott Mayers

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"All this Indian stuff" shows a particular lack of knowledge of the topic.

After being barred from any legal avenues for about a hundred years, they are just now beginning to reap the real benefit of their Aboriginal land rights and have the opportunity to become appropriately wealthy.

"Land rights" is misleading. The largest difference in lifestyle (NOT actually 'culture') of the North American Natives was due to the fact that they were still of an 'unsettled' ("non-civilized" has become pejoratively interpreted by many) livelihood. As such, "land ownership" was less specific in Canada by Natives as they were still roaming as hunter-gatherers. This clashes with the evolution of 'settlement' since the roamers don't respect barriers on claimed lands beyond what the land they were presently ON in hunting or gathering.

It is this question that is at issue. "Reserves" were not considered as 'owned' specifically. Rather, it was understood as lands set aside for the sake of these people to be allowed to persist in their choice to wander freely without imposing harm against those who DID believe in "ownership of land".

Wahwahwah! You want some cheese with that?

You're pretty thin skinned and weak kneed.

And kind of obsessed with your whiteness ... what's up with that?

This is the kind of insult that only adds fuel with a worse kind that Aboriginals suffer for their own 'misunderstandings'. It doesn't help to belittle if you are trying to gain attention for some cause that also comes about from being 'belittled' (the Aboriginal concerns).

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My particular beef is that the treaties were negotiated not by Canada, but by a British crown colony. Aboriginals should have a beef with Buckingham Palace, not Ottawa. Our real beef is with anyone stupid enough to NOT kick the slimey limeys to the curb and make Canada a truly independent nation, and accepting the truly idiotic idea of hundreds of nations and national governments within one country.

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