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https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-50087392

 

So now they admit to holding up the aid but want to blame the democrats?  What a country.  

 

Syria is a bigger mess now than it was before. 

A senior U.S. defense official told reporters Tuesday that U.S. forces would continue the defeat ISIS fight from Iraq.

 

I will laugh when the u.s. war machine rolls back out in a couple of years.  

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21 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:
I will laugh when the u.s. war machine rolls back out in a couple of years.  

 

Did you laugh when Canada's rolled out years ago ?

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9 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Then why are Democrats backing off if it's so popular then? They can't even get the votes in their own party to go along with it, let alone get the GOP warmongers onside. Guess it's not so popular after all and wishful thinking is a helluva drug.

Uhh says who? You don't think an impeachment vote would pass? They just don't have to until there are Articles of Impeachment, it's a GOP ploy to try and get Dems on the record before all the evidence is presented. 

Edited by Boges

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Hey remember that time when ya'll said there was no evidence of a Quid Pro Quo? Well. . . 

https://www.msnbc.com/velshi-ruhle/watch/-it-happens-all-the-time-mulvaney-tells-reporter-to-get-over-it-after-quid-pro-quo-admission-71484997641

:lol:

It's the Trump playbook. Deny Deny Deny, Admit! Then say so what. 

It's just funny that sycophants have to keep modifying their talking points because this WH keep changing them.  

 

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4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Obviously Canada doesn't care, as Trudeau brought home strike fighters and support aircraft long ago.   And stopped military support for Kurds after promising same.

So please explain to me why Trump has to stay in Syria, but Canada and many other "allied" nations do not.

You're right, as a Canadian it matters little.

But as a Trump hater, it's funny to see him piss off the GOP member he'll need to stay in office. 

I was just merely pointing out that leaving places of previous conflict doesn't seem to be in the US DNA, why not get out of Germany, Japan and Korea if Trump is being consistent. Bring your boys home! 

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14 minutes ago, Boges said:

You're right, as a Canadian it matters little.

But as a Trump hater, it's funny to see him piss off the GOP member he'll need to stay in office.

 

Trump didn't need the GOP to become president...most of them really hated Trump from the 'git-go, but he destroyed them in 2016 primary elections.  Then Trump continued to bash popular GOP members like Sen. John McCain.    Trump "pisses off" the GOP just because he can.  There is no reason for Trump to change his methods now, win or lose in 2020.

 

Quote

I was just merely pointing out that leaving places of previous conflict doesn't seem to be in the US DNA, why not get out of Germany, Japan and Korea if Trump is being consistent. Bring your boys home! 

 

Trump has already advocated doing so....but the "allies" scream bloody murder, including Canada, which begs Trump to continue protecting the "post WW2 order" while being one of the biggest NATO defence spending deadbeats.

 

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Wes I tried to give it some thought to debate you and Y two of my face debaters.

I appreciate not just you  but others when discussing whether a President has abused the power of their office in the US, those now supporting Trump and his actions with Ukraine point to Article 2 of the Constitution and feel because its silent on abuse of power there is no violation of the Constitution when a President abuses their power.

I would argue it is not that simple because what we do now  know is that in the case of Richard Nixon there was a second article of impeachment approved by the House Judiciary Committee that charged him with abuse of power, specifically, that he  used federal agencies to help his friends , hurt his perceived enemies and gain political advantage for himself.  So given that clear precedent, most certainly using the Presidential powers as leverage to place pressure on a foreign country to investigate Joe Biden was a conflict of interest and an exercise of Trump trying to  hurt his perceived political opponent to gain political advantage and we know this, because Trump said so out loud and not only admitted it  but asked China to investigate Biden as well showing he not only knew he was using his political powers as President to go after a political opponent for his own political advantage but he saw no wrong using his Presidential powers in such a manner.

To now suggest this is not impeachable for the same behavior got Nixon tossed to me is naïve. Flaunting you are deliberately using your powers of the President to advance personal political partisan needs and to punish your perceived foes  as Trump did repeatedly in public,  I would most certainly argue flies in the face of ethics, morality, good faith, and the basic and most fundamental of democratic principles and specifically that a public office should never be used for reasons of personal gain.

I would also point out, the US Constitution did not have to specifically write out what abuse of power is by the President but instead created a system of checks and balances between the House of Representatives, Senate and President (Executive office)  including the  impeachment process to respond to abuse of powers by the President.

Ask yourselves Trump supporters , if you blur personal and public issues is that admirable? Does that aid a democratic process? Do his private interests outweigh the need of the Presidency not to be used to go after people for personal and partisan reasons? Is that what you want-partisan, revenge, hateful, paranoid driven leaders who spend each day on a twitter  no less making disjointed and abusive comments? Has Trump gone one day without attacking someone?  You think that is a good thing? You think that is the role model to lead the US? Why rationalize and justify abusive behavior?

That is what the House of Representatives will now ask  when deciding whether to request the impeachment process be activated, whether Mr. Trump:

1-abused for personal  use, domestic law enforcement;

2-as above but with national security agencies;

3-as above but with the powers of  his Attorney General’s office and Justice Department;

4-as above but with the powers of his State Department;

5-as above but with the powers of the Defence Department.

The transcript Trump provided shows he requested his Attorney General to use the Justice Department to investigate Joe Biden and his son. He also has openly admitted using his powers of commander in chief of the US military and his ability to control foreign and military aid to deliver a message to the Ukrainian leader to investigate Biden. He cannot do that as President. In so doing Trump put his need to punish a political opponent he perceives as running against him for his office to supercede Congressionally authorized defence related aid to Ukraine. He has no power to do that. He can not place his personal interests above those of the US whose interests were clearly enunciated as supporting Ukraine’s independence from Russia.

I would say trying to dismiss this as business as usual is denial of what he has done and its serious implications to the very fundamental principles of his country's founding democratic principles and no American should stand for it, just as I say to Canadians, to look the other way and vote for Trudeau after his blatant abuse of his executive powers to compromise the legal system's integrity for personal partisan interests is not acceptable.

 

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1 hour ago, Rue said:

To now suggest this is not impeachable for the same behavior got Nixon tossed to me is naïve. Flaunting you are deliberately using your powers of the President to advance personal political partisan needs and to punish your perceived foes  as Trump did repeatedly in public,  I would most certainly argue flies in the face of ethics, morality, good faith, and the basic and most fundamental of democratic principles and specifically that a public office should never be used for reasons of personal gain.

 

 

Argue all you want, but FDR expanded the private and public power of the president/executive branch long ago, directly challenging and usurping Congress for more power.   This includes punishing political enemies and inviting foreign interference in U.S. elections (1940).   All presidents are subject to impeachment, but only due to the arbitrary political wind of their time and popularity in office.   

 

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Trump did not put his personal interests above US interests in this case. It was twofer, investigating Ukrainian corruption is very much in the interests of the US. Trump did nothing illegal, he did not abuse his powers, he simply used them as he is entitled to. The Ukrainian's didn't even know he was witholding the aid at the time of the phone call. Comparing what Trump did, to what Nixon did, is apples and oranges.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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39 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

Even if the Democrats do impeach him, the Dems ain't getting 67 votes in the Senate to remove him from office, that requires 20 GOP Senators to vote against him. So not only won't Trump be removed from office, but it will backfire huge on the Democrats. It's a total pipe dream.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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2 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Even if the Democrats do impeach him, the Dems ain't getting 67 votes in the Senate to remove him from office, that requires 20 GOP Senators to vote against him. So not only won't Trump be removed from office, but it will backfire huge on the Democrats. It's a total pipe dream.

1) I don't think removal was ever the end game. Impeachment was started because it was clear 45 was using the power of his office to help his chances in the 2020 election. If that level of corruption goes unchecked, then what level of corruption does get checked. 

2) This Syria thing and the fact that we now have the WH Chief of Staff admitting there was a Quid Pro Quo may change things. Polls have swung to a majority for impeachment and removal and articles haven't even been drawn yet. We'll see if 20 GOP Senators grow a conscience, this Syria/Kurd thing may give them a convenient excuse. 

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14 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Trump didn't need the GOP to become president...most of them really hated Trump from the 'git-go, but he destroyed them in 2016 primary elections.  Then Trump continued to bash popular GOP members like Sen. John McCain.    Trump "pisses off" the GOP just because he can.  There is no reason for Trump to change his methods now, win or lose in 2020.

That's true. But he still relies on them to fend off removal from office should he be impeached. 

 

Quote

Trump has already advocated doing so....but the "allies" scream bloody murder, including Canada, which begs Trump to continue protecting the "post WW2 order" while being one of the biggest NATO defence spending deadbeats.

I can sort of understand his logic in crapping on NATO, but then he buddies up with Putin, Erdoğan and Kim Jong Un. He likes autocratic dictators more than Democratically elected leaders.  

Edited by Boges

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9 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Trump did not put his personal interests above US interests in this case. It was twofer, investigating Ukrainian corruption is very much in the interests of the US. Trump did nothing illegal, he did not abuse his powers, he simply used them as he is entitled to. The Ukrainian's didn't even know he was witholding the aid at the time of the phone call. Comparing what Trump did, to what Nixon did, is apples and oranges.

Have you read the text messages where the Ukraine Officials are freaking out about the Aid. The aid was withheld a week before the call.

At this point, the call is irrelevant, it was just the first shoe to drop. You have diplomats on record saying the money was being withheld in exchange of an investigation and now you have the WH Chief of Staff admitting the same. 

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41 minutes ago, Boges said:

That's true. But he still relies on them to fend off removal from office should he be impeached.

 

But the GOP relies far more on Trump to pass legislation and stack the courts to last far longer than his term(s) in office.

It takes a 2/3rds majority to convict, so the GOP will continue to support Trump until it threatens their members/hold on the Senate.

 

Quote

I can sort of understand his logic in crapping on NATO, but then he buddies up with Putin, Erdoğan and Kim Jong Un. He likes autocratic dictators more than Democratically elected ones.  

 

Not necessarily...Trump has no love for Iran's autocratic leadership.   And it makes sense that Trump favours transactional leaders over career politicians.  FDR also liked authoritarian leaders...like Mussolini.   Also, U.S. foreign policy got into bed with many dictators over the years, for many U.S. presidents, not just Trump.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

But the GOP relies far more on Trump to pass legislation and stack the courts to last far longer than his term(s) in office.

It takes a 2/3rds majority to convict, so the GOP will continue to support Trump until it threatens their members/hold on the Senate.

Polling and public opinion will inform that as it did with Nixon. 

 

Quote

Not necessarily...Trump has no love for Iran's autocratic leadership.   And it makes sense that Trump favours transactional leaders over career politicians.  FDR also liked authoritarian leaders...like Mussolini.   Also, U.S. foreign got into bed with many dictators over the years, for many U.S. presidents, not just Trump.

That's because his other BFF MBS in Saudi Arabia doesn't like Iran. You know the guy Trump hand-waved having a US Citizen brutally murdered. 

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The press is catching up to Trump's reality in Syria....here is why Trump has clumsily gotten it right:

 

Quote

What Trump Actually Gets Right About Syria

...U.S. policy in Syria has been unclear, confused and unrealistic for nearly a decade—a never-ending mission impossible without realistic goals or the means to achieve them. Yes, people are rightly enraged at Trump’s willful abandonment of the Kurds and his disregard for U.S. credibility and interests. But this indignation should not obscure the fact: U.S. policy in Syria was headed for trouble. Chaotic and destructive as they are, Trump’s actions have served to lay bare some uncomfortable truths and realities about U.S. policy toward Syria.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/18/trump-syria-turkey-kurds-news-analysis-229858

 

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3 minutes ago, Boges said:

Polling and public opinion will inform that as it did with Nixon.

 

As it should....impeachment and removal are purely political.   Let the games go on.

 

Quote

That's because his other BFF MBS in Saudi Arabia doesn't like Iran. You know the guy Trump hand-waved having a US Citizen brutally murdered. 

 

...and Obama bowed to Saudi royalty...so what ?

To ignore previous U.S. foreign policies / presidents cozying up to dictators just to attack Trump is an obvious bias.

 

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Canadians have Trump Derangement Syndrome worse than the Democrats themselves.

I know lots of de facto Democrats who de jure vote for MAGA as the Democrat Party has become traitors to the republic once again.

Party of Lincoln, always the last resort in the face of a Plantation Aristocracy.

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9 hours ago, Cannucklehead said:

The impeachment process wasn't started to end up in a vote. It was started as a long-term smear campaign disguised as an investigation, just like Russian collusion was.

This has no more merit than the latest talk on CNN about how the US was going into a recession, or the Ford allegations, or the Smollett allegations, or collusion, or obstruction, or "biden did nothing wrong", etc. CNN hasn't attempted to get a story right in a really long time. It's called "a pattern":

 https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pattern

Quote

7: a reliable sample of traits, acts, tendencies, or other observable characteristics of a person, group, or institution

 

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9 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Even if the Democrats do impeach him, the Dems ain't getting 67 votes in the Senate to remove him from office, that requires 20 GOP Senators to vote against him. So not only won't Trump be removed from office, but it will backfire huge on the Democrats. It's a total pipe dream.

Speaking of backlashes, his act is certainly is not helping Republican Senators  who will feel the backlash next election for them.

 

 

Edited by Rue

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32 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The impeachment process wasn't started to end up in a vote. It was started as a long-term smear campaign disguised as an investigation, just like Russian collusion was.

 

 

No its to challenge his abuse of powers. You think anyone who challenges him smears him because of your partisan beliefs that anything he does is beyond question. 

Edited by Rue

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Trump ain't going to lose, and any GOP congressmen or senators who vote against Trump will pay the price with voters. Impeachment is not popular with GOP voters. Hell even the Democrats in swing states and districts will pay the price as well. Impeachment is only popular among Democrats, and even then, not popular enough to pass the house, otherwise they would have done it already.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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