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Is pro-choice a rational position?


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This same title - DYSFUNCTIONAL MINDS PROP PRO-CHOICE - was posted by tosca1 in another forum that generated quite a robust discussion. I can't think of any other way to word it other than verbatim - since that title precisely defines the point I'm bringing forth.

This is an abortion issue which will use mostly, if not all, secular arguments/rationale.

The pro-choice stance is riddled with holes and contradictions......that shows pro-choice adherents are confused about their own stance.

Human life begins at fertilization. That's a scientific fact!

Life Begins at Fertilization
The following references illustrate the fact that a new human embryo, the starting point for a human life, comes into existence with the formation of the one-celled zygote:

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

Science Deniers Notwithstanding, Human Life Begins at Conception

That human life begins at conception is a scientific fact, and has been recognized as such since the early 19th century when fertilization of the ovum by the sperm was first observed in the laboratory. That life begins at conception is as much a scientific fact as heliocentrism, and the fact that the earth is round, and that water is H2O.

A new human being comes into existence at the fusion of the egg and the sperm. The new human being develops through stages, and at each stage of human development -- zygote, embryo, fetus, neonate, infant, child, adolescent, adult -- the individual is a human being. There is no scientific debate about this.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/08/science_deniers098481.html

Even logic would conclude that the unborn is a human being.

What other creature would a human being create, if not another human being?

Let's look back in our history.

As this Declaration of The Rights of A Child shows, the unborn was regarded just like any other born children, with all the same rights and privileges. How can he not be? After all, he's a human being who's simply going through the natural process of development as we continuously do through our life. From an infant, doesn't a human continue to develop to become a toddler, and then continue on to develop to become pubescent, to young adult, etc..?

Everything has a starting point. For the human being, it's fertilization.


DECLARATION OF THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILD

In the enactment of laws for this purpose, the best interests of the child shall be the paramount consideration.



The child shall enjoy special protection, and shall be given opportunities and facilities, by law and by other means, to enable him to develop physically, mentally, morally, spiritually and socially in a healthy and normal manner and in conditions of freedom and dignity.

Whereas the child, by reason of his physical and mental immaturity, needs special safeguards and care, including appropriate legal protection, before as well as after birth,




In the enactment of laws for this purpose, the best interests of the child shall be
The child shall enjoy the benefits of social security. He shall be entitled to grow and develop in health; to this end, special care and protection shall be provided both to him and to his mother,including adequate pre-natal and post-natal care.
the paramount consideration.

http://www.unicef.org/malaysia/1959-Declaration-of-the-Rights-of-the-Child.pdf

The unborn was regarded as a child - with all the same rights! He has to be given SPECIAL protection!

Pro-choice is bucking science, and logic.

Not only that! They've taken away rights, and had stripped the unborn of its humanity!

They try to justify the act by giving all sorts of nonsense arguments – and that's when they trip all over themselves, and

their dysfunctional thinking shows.

Edited by betsy
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Betsy, we kill people, of all ages, all the time. A class mate of mine had an uncle who was given a Victoria Cross for killing dozens of Japanese sailors and committed suicide (its self a mortal sin) in doing so. How many innocent children, born and unborn, did we kill in France and Germany. President Kennedy was committed to killing three billion people in 1962 if he didn't get what he wanted.

Until recently, we executed criminals. Killing unwanted unborn babies is no different. We, as a society, do not recognize sanctity of life. We kill those who are inconvenient and spare those we want.

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Betsy, we kill people, of all ages, all the time. A class mate of mine had an uncle who was given a Victoria Cross for killing dozens of Japanese sailors and committed suicide (its self a mortal sin) in doing so. How many innocent children, born and unborn, did we kill in France and Germany. President Kennedy was committed to killing three billion people in 1962 if he didn't get what he wanted.

Until recently, we executed criminals. Killing unwanted unborn babies is no different. We, as a society, do not recognize sanctity of life. We kill those who are inconvenient and spare those we want.

I don't quite understand where you stand.

True, we kill during wartime. And yes, there were innocents who became casualties of war.

We've also executed those who were convicted of crimes.

There's a difference between killing, and murder.

Are you saying you support the MURDER of innocents?

Edited by betsy
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Pro-choice arguments are not only hypocritical, but quite stupidly ironic.

# 1

Pro-choice are quick to mock religion to keep up with the 21st century.....

........and yet, they try to justify abortion by claiming it's a natural thing to do, and had been done all the way back in ancient times!

Yeah, like....... they had these modern 21st century technology - contraceptives pills/gadgets - back in ancient time!

Not to mention the millions of dollars worth of education and ads about safe-sex!

Hello? Shouldn't you be the ones to keep up with the 21st century? :D

#2

Pro-choice supporters love to point out they fight against discrimination.........

..........and yet, they're all for discriminating against the unborn, simply because the poor child does what he's supposed to naturally do: depend on his mother for his survival!

That's how all humans start out - unborn - and being totally dependent on their mothers.

Anyone who hadn't started out that way, raise your hand!

#3

They're HITLERIAN! They get all heated up, and excited when they get compared to Hitler. But, they are!

They've stripped the unborn of his humanity to justify and sanction the slaughter of children.....much like the same way the nazis had stripped Jews of their humanity to justify and sanction any, and every atrocities done to the Jews, which also include their slaughter.

That's the same method done to blacks to justify and sanction their slavery - they were stripped of their humanity, and were considered "sub-human."

Edited by betsy
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There is no difference between killing and murder. Killing is killing. I do not support the murder of innocents. For example, when the Christians went into Jerusalem, they killed every man, woman and child in the city. Muslims, Christians and Jews. It was war so was it murder or just killing.

Until recently, if a wife had an adulterous affair, she would be tried for petty treason and if convicted, we burned her at the stake.

Where do I stand? I am a realist. People do not respect the sanctity of life. As for abortion, we are faced with a difficulty in preventing conception. We are also faced with a current population five times the level the earth can sustain. I do not like abortion. I also understand there are women who are faced with no other choice. Before we judge them, we must walk 1.6 Km. in their shoes.

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Most women do not have access to "modern 21st century contraceptives pills/gadgets back in ancient time! Not to mention the millions of dollars worth of education and ads about safe-sex." Most women do not have the choice of having sex.

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Here's a popular jus

There is no difference between killing and murder. Killing is killing.

Murder is the deliberate killing of a person.

I do not support the murder of innocents. For example, when the Christians went into Jerusalem, they killed every man, woman and child in the city. Muslims, Christians and Jews. It was war so was it murder or just killing.

Until recently, if a wife had an adulterous affair, she would be tried for petty treason and if convicted, we burned her at the stake.

Where do I stand? I am a realist. People do not respect the sanctity of life. As for abortion, we are faced with a difficulty in preventing conception.

War, is war. There are casualties of war - that's the realistic view of it!

Are we at war with the unborn?

Have you checked the daily news. We're also faced with the difficulty of preventing murder, terrorism, human trafficking....etc. So you're saying we should legalize them, too?

Before we judge them, we must walk 1.6 Km. in their shoes.

The primary objective is SAVING COUNTLESS of LIVES!

You're way out of touch with the point why there are Pro-Lifers if you think this all about judging women who'd had abortions!

I say, you should walk in the tiny shoes of the ones who's bearing the full brunt of abortion - those that are being murdered! He's the one who's paying the full price!

Edited by betsy
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Pro-choice arguments are not only hypocritical, but quite stupidly ironic.

# 1

Pro-choice are quick to mock religion to keep up with the 21st century.....

........and yet, they try to justify abortion by claiming it's a natural thing to do, and had been done all the way back in ancient times!

Yeah, like....... they had these modern 21st century technology - contraceptives pills/gadgets - back in ancient time!

Not to mention the millions of dollars worth of education and ads about safe-sex!

Hello? Shouldn't you be the ones to keep up with the 21st century? :D

#2

Pro-choice supporters love to point out they fight against discrimination.........

..........and yet, they're all for discriminating against the unborn, simply because the poor child does what he's supposed to naturally do: depend on his mother for his survival!

That's how all humans start out - unborn - and being totally dependent on their mothers.

Anyone who hadn't started out that way, raise your hand!

#3

They're HITLERIAN! They get all heated up and excited when they get compared with Hitler. But, they are.

They've stripped the unborn of his humanity to justify and sanction the slaughter of children.....much like the same way the nazis had stripped Jews of their humanity to justify and sanction any, and every atrocities done to the Jews, which also include their slaughter.

That's the same method done to blacks to justify and sanction their slavery - they were stripped of their humanity, and were considered "sub-human."

#1 I mock religion because it is the leading cause of suicide bombers and acts of repression. Living by a code that was written to control the masses.

#2 It is the Pro Lifers that have no problem letting children wallow in sickness and poverty the second that precious life is born.

#3 Comparing somebody to Hitler is just trying to get a reaction. Why not call them "Stalinist"? He killed just as many but was not racist about it.

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#1 I mock religion because it is the leading cause of suicide bombers and acts of repression. Living by a code that was written to control the masses.

:rolleyes:

....but look at the pot calling the kettle black. It's the ironic hypocrisy of pro-choice that I'm pointing out.

Go back and read again.

It is the Pro Lifers that have no problem letting children wallow in sickness and poverty the second that precious life is born.

Good thing you brought that up - you beat me to it! That's another silly justification.

#4.

Without abortion, more children will wallow in poverty and misery.

How do you know the future of an unborn? Are you clairvoyant?

Who appointed you judge and executioner?

How many people raised in poverty ended up doing so well in life? Countless!

How many people who were abandoned and adopted, ended up doing so well in life? Countless!

Comparing somebody to Hitler is just trying to get a reaction. Why not call them "Stalinist"? He killed just as many but was not racist about it.

Didn't you read why I compared them to Hitler? Go back and read!

Edited by betsy
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#5

Militant Pro-choice people claim that the unborn is not a baby. They say the unborn is a zygote!

Have you ever heard anyone in real life talking about the unborn, and referring to him not as a baby.....but as a zygote?

Have you ever heard anyone saying, "Mommy has a zygote in her tummy." Or, "when is your zygote due?"

Or, "It's sad. She lost her zygote." My goodness........... :lol:

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Most women do not have access to "modern 21st century contraceptives pills/gadgets back in ancient time! Not to mention the millions of dollars worth of education and ads about safe-sex." Most women do not have the choice of having sex.

You should read again what you've responded to, because your response doesn't jive with my message.

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You still don't have the right to tell others they have to keep a lifeform living in their body.

Life form? That's new.

Oh yes, I do have the right to try to do something to help another human being.

A lot of women too, especially young women, are scared and confused, and sometimes all they need is someone to talk to.

If someone is getting murdered in front of you, and you have all the opportunity in the world to call 911, wouldn't you make

that call? Wouldn't you try to talk to the perpetrator out of committing the crime?

Edited by betsy
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If someone is getting murdered in front of you, and you have all the opportunity in the world to call 911, wouldn't you make

that call? Wouldn't you try to talk to the perpetrator out of committing the crime?

Not if it wasn't actually a crime and if it was a situation that was absolutely none of my business. I wouldn't dare tell you what to do with your own body, even if I thought it was terribly wrong. It is simply a personal decision, whether you think it's right or not.

These busy-bodies who feel they should have dominion over people's bodies, I tell ya...

Edited by BubberMiley
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Not if it wasn't actually a crime and if it was a situation that was absolutely none of my business. I wouldn't dare tell you what to do with your own body, even if I thought it was terribly wrong. It is simply a personal decision, whether you think it's right or not.

These busy-bodies who feel they should have dominion over people's bodies, I tell ya...

Another popular excuse to justify abortion!

#6

What women do with their own body is none of our business!

Well, I've got news for you.

Any situation that causes oppression on another human being, becomes our business! It should!

Heck, we stick our noses in when your neighbor hits a dog......or when he leaves a pet in a car.....

You wouldn't lift a finger ....unless it affects you. That's you!

You're not the only one who thinks that way, btw! A lot of people are only thinking of their own selves!

If-it-doesn't-impact-me-who-cares, mentality!

You'd simply be watching someone commits suicide? And not try to do anything about it?

You wouldn't even try to talk him out of it?

Not only did common sense vacate the building.............what a cold society we've indeed become.

No wonder murdering the unborn, means nothing anymore.

Read my lips:

I can tell a pregnant woman who's thinking of abortion, that, " abortion is murder! That baby inside you is innocent!

There is another option that doesn't have to result in murder! You created him - therefore, own up! Do the right thing!"

I can freely say that! That's my right, the freedom to express myself!

Of course, just like the freedom of religion, the freedom to express is getting chipped too, at every turn.

You have no right to prevent me from speaking my mind just because you don't like what I say!

See the dysfunctional reasoning you give? That's what this thread is all about!

Edited by betsy
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#7

Questioning the personhood of the fetus, is one of the most popular justification by pro-choice!

Pro-choice latches on to the issue of personhood like a leech on flesh. Personhood is critical for pro-choice.

If a fetus is not a person, there wouldn't be the deliberate killing of an innocent person.

Like as if a human being is not synonymous with a person. That we have to question whether the baby you fathered, or the baby you mothered, is human! :rolleyes:

If you question the personhood of your own offspring, we should ask you: are you human? Do you think you are?

Edited by betsy
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Btw, why do you use the term, PRO-CHOICE?

Pro-Choice? That's disingenuous!

What so-called pro-choice are you on about when the poor infant who's ultimately impacted by your decision....hadn't had any choice at all?

You should call it exactly for what it is: PRO-ABORTION!

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Btw, why do you use the term, PRO-CHOICE?

Pro-Choice? That's disingenuous!

What so-called pro-choice are you on about when the poor infant who's ultimately impacted by your decision....hadn't had any choice at all?

You should call it exactly for what it is: PRO-ABORTION!

Not at all. I'm pro choice. Abortion is only one aspect of the choice to have autonomy over one's body. I also believe in the right to choose assisted suicide. The right to rent one's womb. The right to sell one's kidneys. Any organs really, if one wants to double up with the assisted suicide choice.

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Btw, why do you use the term, PRO-CHOICE?

Pro-Choice? That's disingenuous!

What so-called pro-choice are you on about when the poor infant who's ultimately impacted by your decision....hadn't had any choice at all?

You should call it exactly for what it is: PRO-ABORTION!

Pro-choice means support whatever choice a woman wishes to make, of which abortion is only one. Pro-choice organizations also provide information on contraception, and on STDs. This, to me, seems a very loving thing to do, something of which Jesus would approve - certainly more loving than a bunch of self-righteous people shaming women who may already be suffering beyond your comprehension.

Perhaps, if you are so concerned about these unborn babies, you should hie yourself down to a family planning organization, and offer to support and care for a 14-year-old who's been kicked out of her home by her "Christian" family because she's pregnant; you have four or five years to spend, don't you. and some extra cash? You could ensure this young lady gets through school so she can become a contributing member of society, rather than another single mother living in poverty. Or maybe you could spend some time comforting a pregnant woman who's been violently raped; be with her through her nightmares, persuade her that the thing inside her, placed there by some brutal man, is worthy of her love and caring for the rest of her life.

But no, here you are - arguing with people who do not believe the same as you and who will not be persuaded, instead of doing something practical and useful to save these babies, about whom you claim to care so much. Pretty sure Jesus would counsel you to DO the good works, not just pay lip service.

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Not at all. I'm pro choice. Abortion is only one aspect of the choice to have autonomy over one's body. I also believe in the right to choose assisted suicide. The right to rent one's womb. The right to sell one's kidneys. Any organs really, if one wants to double up with the assisted suicide choice.

Let's face it, when we talk pro-choice, we all know it's about abortion!

What right to "rent out your womb?" Wrong! That's illegal in Canada. You don't get paid for surrogacy!

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/surrogacy-in-canada-what-are-the-laws-1.1954565

What right to sell kidneys are you on about? That's not a right! You can't even give your blood for free, if you're gay!

Selling body parts is also illegal!

Which remind me......

This is another thing that's commonly used by pro-choice,

#8

I have a right to do what I want with my body!

No, you don't!

Go ahead. Try it. Go in public and start mutilating yourself! Let's see if you don't end up in a straight jacket! :lol:

See this common misconception about these so-called, rights?

The "right to live," isn't a right. You don't have the right to live!

What do you do when you're killed - are you going to yell out, "I have the right to live?

What you have is the knowledge that in our society, no one has the right to murder you!

Edited by betsy
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Let's face it, when we talk pro-choice, we all know it's about abortion!

What right to "rent out your womb?" Wrong! That's illegal in Canada. You don't get paid for surrogacy!

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/surrogacy-in-canada-what-are-the-laws-1.1954565

What right to sell kidneys are you on about? That's not a right! You can't even give your blood for free, if you're gay!

Selling body parts is also illegal!

Which remind me......

This is another thing that's commonly used by pro-choice,

#8

I have a right to do what I want with my body!

No, you don't!

Go ahead. Try it. Go in public and start mutilating yourself! Let's see if you don't end up in a straight jacket! :lol:

See this common misconception about these so-called, rights?

The "right to live," isn't a right. You don't have the right to live!

What do you do when you're killed - are you going to yell out, "I have the right to live?

What you have is the knowledge that in our society, no one has the right to murder you!

I didn't say one had the right to make those choices. Only that I believe they should have. To me, choice is about more than abortion.

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I didn't say one had the right to make those choices. Only that I believe they should have. To me, choice is about more than abortion.

I wasn't thinking about what you believe people should have when I wrote that the term, Pro-Choice, isn't the right term for this issue about abortion!

Gee.......people, can we please try to stay focused?

Edited by betsy
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