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drummindiver

Freedom of Speech?

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On the other hand, if instead of saying that you give long speeches on how Jews are evil and cruel and are killing babies to drink their blood, and how Jews are controlling the world and stealing everyone's money to enrich themselves and abusing your women and conspiring to destroy your country

We don't need hate speech laws for that. There's already exceptions to freedom of speech for slander and libel.

A group of jews should be able to bring a class action suit before the courts, demonstrated damages, and get a cease and desist order, and even compensation for damages, or punitive judgements. And the "truth" is always a defense against slander and libel. We would need to tweak defamation laws in order to allow for this though.

The last thing we need is a government bureaucracy to look at the millions of inflammatory statements pretty much every group makes about every other group, and make subject decisions on who should get charged.

Edited by dre

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Even if the latter is obviously causing ignorant people to carry out violent physical attacks on Jews?

Then you start getting into levels of ignorance. If you banned everything that got some ignorant git to react, no-one would ever say anything.

Stop the ingnoramuses, not the speech.

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I agree with free speech and abhor censorship

All freedoms should have reasonable limits placed on them. Freedom of speech should include the ability to criticize the government and promote it being overthrown through peaceful means. Once you cross the line and support violent means, then your freedom needs to be curtailed. Supporting ISIS is supporting violence, so yes he should be arrested.

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Then you start getting into levels of ignorance. If you banned everything that got some ignorant git to react, no-one would ever say anything.

Stop the ingnoramuses, not the speech.

Now back to reality. We know you can't do that. We know that this individual and his sermons and speeches and web sites are causing people to attack other people. You feel we should just let him continue while putting armed guards around every Jewish school and temple in hopes of catching his followers in the act?

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Now back to reality. We know you can't do that. We know that this individual and his sermons and speeches and web sites are causing people to attack other people. You feel we should just let him continue while putting armed guards around every Jewish school and temple in hopes of catching his followers in the act?

Bollocks to your reality. People can be as hate filled as they wish to be. They can express that hatred if they want. If other people are so stupid as to act on it then that's what laws are for. I'm not going to advocate putting padlocks on people's thoughts and views because of some impressionable idiots.

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Bollocks to your reality. People can be as hate filled as they wish to be. They can express that hatred if they want. If other people are so stupid as to act on it then that's what laws are for. I'm not going to advocate putting padlocks on people's thoughts and views because of some impressionable idiots.

Unfortunately, there's that reality thing, again, which interferes with your nice theoretical freedom approach. And I'm not going to have people getting stabbed and blown up because some charismatic scumbag is out preaching hatred all day long.

Edited by Argus

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And I'm not going to have people getting stabbed and blown up because some charismatic scumbag is out preaching hatred all day long.

Good thing Argus isn't charismatic.

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I find it ironic that we are discussing freedom of speech on a web site which greatly restricts what you may post. Should the freedom of speech include calling people who state racist views as "racists"?

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I find it ironic that we are discussing freedom of speech on a web site which greatly restricts what you may post. Should the freedom of speech include calling people who state racist views as "racists"?

It should even include those who call people with whom they have no cogent argument racists.

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Unfortunately, there's that reality thing, again, which interferes with your nice theoretical freedom approach. And I'm not going to have people getting stabbed and blown up because some charismatic scumbag is out preaching hatred all day long.

Well, we could put everyone in a bag, I guess.

Edited by bcsapper

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I find it ironic that we are discussing freedom of speech on a web site which greatly restricts what you may post. Should the freedom of speech include calling people who state racist views as "racists"?

If you like, as long as I can call those who state views which are moronic and simple-minded moronic simpletons.

Edited by Argus

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That's not what the article you linked says. From the article:

Mr Choudary, of Ilford in east London, and Mohammed Rahman, 32, of Whitechapel in east London, were arrested on 25 September last year on suspicion of being members of IS, which is a proscribed organisation.

So the arrest seems to be for membership in a terrorist organization, not free speech. Unless that was talking about a previous arrest, from which he was later freed and now he was arrested again? It's not clear from the article. In either case, the person in question seems to be a member of various terrorist organizations (including al-Muhajiroun as well as IS).

Sorry, I had read many articles reporting the story that day and just perused the one I actually posted. My bad.

"But he was finally snared by police for inciting support for ISIS in a series of online lectures."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3732890/Anjem-Choudary-GUILTY-inciting-support-ISIS.html

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So,inciting hatred via speech is clearly not permissible, but "all" Ernst Zundel did was state the holocaust didn't happen. Not enough to be jailed in Canada imo, yet he was. In Germany where he was jailed for 5 years for this there is a law specific to this.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Zundel/Weber200903.html

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2010/03/01/holocaust_denier_ernst_zundel_released_from_prison.html

Does this mean we are less tolerant of free speech?

.

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If you like, as long as I can call those who state views which are moronic and simple-minded moronic simpletons.

Certainly, they should be allowed the prestige of being on the right side of issues. It would be like members of the KKK with their hoods on cursing immigrants for daring to enter Canada.

But be careful, when you call someone moronic and a simple minded simpleton you are saying that YOU think that person is moronic and simple-minded simpleton. When others know the individual who are are disparaging is not what you say they are, does that then make YOU the moronic and simple-minded simpleton?

That happens often on this board.

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But be careful, when you call someone moronic and a simple minded simpleton you are saying that YOU think that person is moronic and simple-minded simpleton.

Oh, I'm pretty sure most of them on this site are basically self-identified to most posters do to their own idiotic behaviour and expressed beliefs.

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Oh, I'm pretty sure most of them on this site are basically self-identified to most posters do to their own idiotic behaviour and expressed beliefs.

I am convinced that you really believe that. If you did not then, you would not post those insults.

As I have suggested in the past - you do not speak for anybody but yourself. For you to have the arrogance of speaking for "most posters" perhaps indicates how isolated your views are.

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So,inciting hatred via speech is clearly not permissible, but "all" Ernst Zundel did was state the holocaust didn't happen. Not enough to be jailed in Canada imo, yet he was. In Germany where he was jailed for 5 years for this there is a law specific to this.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Zundel/Weber200903.html

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2010/03/01/holocaust_denier_ernst_zundel_released_from_prison.html

Does this mean we are less tolerant of free speech?

.

Jail for denying the holocaust is ridiculous, in my opinion. Anywhere in the world. The Germans ought to know better.

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Jail for denying the holocaust is ridiculous, in my opinion. Anywhere in the world. The Germans ought to know better.

I wonder WHY there is never any doubt re: the Battle of Midway occurring. Or Coral Sea. There is FAR less evidence. Are we going to take the mere word of Japanese and American naval aviators who CLAIM they survived the battle? Liars...

;)

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I wonder WHY there is never any doubt re: the Battle of Midway occurring. Or Coral Sea. There is FAR less evidence. Are we going to take the mere word of Japanese and American naval aviators who CLAIM they survived the battle? Liars...

;)

Exactly. Ridicule ought to be the only response.

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What if there is a teacher teaching such ridiculous ideas in a classroom? Shall ridicule still be the answer?

A teacher teaches what curriculum is developed by their particular board. If he/she does no, then report them and they will be dealt with in appropriate manner. If you do not like what they are teaching and it is the curriculum to be taught then complain to the board and trustees.

Edited by Big Guy

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What if there is a teacher teaching such ridiculous ideas in a classroom? Shall ridicule still be the answer?

Obviously not. You already knew the answer to that question so why did you ask it?

What if it's not a teacher? Jailtime?

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