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Altai

What do you think about my system ?

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1 minute ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I think Marx didn't like religion because his father and then himself were secular enlightenment thinkers so not very religious to begin with.  Marx also disliked power hierarchies where the masses were controlled & exploited by an elite few.

Not all religions have hierarchies (Lutheranism, which Marx was surrounded by, does not).
The cult-like belief system required to sustain communism and is not that different from any non-hierarchical religion.
He must have been aware of this.  

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13 hours ago, Argus said:

Communists found out, if you don't get a higher reward for harder work then the workers will do only the bare minimum. 

Someone should remind what's-his-face that anti-communists  also forget what usually happens when the rewards for managing workers become too ridiculous - there's usually a revolt.

Edited by eyeball

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Given what the Proles will tolerate those who are their solely for their amusement are paid, it seems a revolt is unlikely any time soon. 

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2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Well maybe that's so.  But i've yet to even read where Marx even believed in a totalitarian state.  That was brought in by the Russians who took Marx's call for a "dictatorship of the proletariat" to mean a literal dictatorship, when it seems Marx only meant for workers to have all political control, which NEVER happened under any Communist system because the only people who had control were the political elites who used that quote as an excuse to give themselves total power via 1-party systems they created.

They exercised their power conservatively in other words.

Anyways, Marx was right, religion is the opiate of the masses.

The drug of choice of the elite is power.  Pretty addictive stuff apparently.

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46 minutes ago, TimG said:

The cult-like belief system required to sustain communism and is not that different from any non-hierarchical religion.
He must have been aware of this.  

Communism is as much of a cult as neoliberalism and "trickle-down economics".  I guess you could call any catch-all economic theory with sweeping macroeconomic prescriptions implemented in various regions without properly factoring in local contexts as "a cult".

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6 hours ago, Ash74 said:

Who decides what we need?

Who decides which color of shoes we wear?

Who decides that that person has to clean the septic tanks?

Who decides what shape of a house will fulfill our needs?

Who will decide what food we need to survive or who will farm it?

There is still the factor of my neighbors spouse might be more attractive than mine or is the plan to assign mates as well?

 

Your Utopia here reads like  Owell's nightmare.

Sure sounds like hell.

The lack of choices or challenges just sounds boring.

 




You will decide what you need and state will have to meet your need. You will decide for your shoe color, the person who was tasked to clean septic tanks will clean the septic tanks, you will decide for the shape of your house and state will build it for you, the persons who were tasked to farm for our foods will farm it. 



 

4 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

This is communism.  It is Karl Marx 101.  I don't remember ever reading Marx/Engels saying religion needs to be banned in a communism system.  20th century dictators made that stuff up later.


I dont know in a detailed way that what is communism, my father told the same thing and I think communism is a system based on dictatorship, my system is based on democracy.

 

Edited by Altai

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3 hours ago, Ash74 said:

Plus the minor detail that kills this whole concept is just "why would I work?"

If I could sit at home playing with my kids,watching TV, sitting out in my backyard ,etc,etc if I didn't need too?

What if 5 billion people all said that?

How would you force people to do their fair share?

This would turn into a disaster very quickly and is a silly concept.


Again, you dont even read my posts.

You have to work to benefit my system, if you are a person who is able to work but dont want to work just because you dont like to work, you wont benefit from my system. You will be just given some food, shelter and clothes with poor quality. As a result, you will want to work.


Today we share the things unfairly and we see what happens. Justice is the essence of life. A life without justice cannot even be mentioned.

Edited by Altai

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On 2016-10-09 at 6:25 PM, Altai said:

I am open for additional ideas and positive-negative criticism about my aim to shape life in my country first and World life secondly.


First, I want a World where all the people live fairly. All people should be able to benefit equally from the opportunities of the World. I was born in the World and people who was arrived the World before me dont have such a right to limit my rights, like as building borders and creating different countries, privating lands and claiming ownership, privating underground and surface riches, dividing people into classes (for exmp; boss and worker), having different opportunities based on financial power. 

To ensure that, we need to eliminate "money". All the needs of people should be met by the state for free. Food, clothing, housing facilities, transport facilities, health facilities. Wont we work ? Ofcourse we will work but we wont work to make money, we will work just because we love our jobs. You will have a nice house with a nice kitchen, you will have a nice car, you will have your daily need of food. We will just be expected to make our job as happy persons without any concerns about daily life. 

This is similar to communism but not the same. For example, religions are prohibited in communism but its not in my system. You have to live equal and a poor life in communism but in my system you will live fair and luxury life. 


Would you like to live in such a country ? Why and why not ? What would be the bad and good sides of such a country ?

Yes I really did read what you said.

Nowhere did you say that there would be a personal benefit to working. All you claimed is that all would love our jobs. Good luck with that.

You failed to mention that people would be given tasks by the state.

Every time somebody pokes holes in your Utopia theory you claim that we didn't read your original post.

I am sorry but as wonderful as this world you have created sounds it just would not work.

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15 hours ago, Altai said:

I dont know in a detailed way that what is communism, my father told the same thing and I think communism is a system based on dictatorship, my system is based on democracy.

Democracy could end your system. The capitalists are saying that communism lies only in a dictatorship but, it is not always true. Actually, in some communism systems, such the former soviet union, the people could sometimes have a better say on the politics than a capitalist democratic system where the politicians are the elite's puppets. Capitalism/communism and democracy/dictatorship are two differents angles and there can be several combinations.

Everything you have mentionned so far is very theorical and is based on a good will. When you try to apply that in the real life, the problems start. Which does not mean the main idea is bad but, a better solution must be investigated.

The problem with your system is, you are trying to bring a micro management to a very high level and the so far, the humans are still not capable to solve the inevitable bureaucracy size of this.

You say that you decide the color of your shoes and the system will bring it to you. No you don't. Neither in such system, nor in a capitalist system. In the capitalist system, you will be allowed to have the exact shape and colors only if the benefit of the supplier is great enough to make it worth it. Usually, it means that you are not the only one who wants it and therefore, the mass production bring it to a cheap unit cost. Or, the application of the color is so low cost that there is no issue for the supplier to personalize it for you. In your system, it is not true that the system can affort any customization an individual would required for a 3$ total cost. The cost of production would be too high and other kind of services or products would pay the price in return.

Corruption in a communist system is very high because the individuals in the apparel system manage to use it for their own benefit and although it is illegal, it is often tolerated by the authorities because their are the ones that benefit the most from it. It is not different than any other kind of system. That is why even if you think you will have the appropriat measures, someone will by pass them. There is always a flaw, an exploit.

You are doing a good exercise and you are not the first one. I have been there and many other people before us too. I suggest you to distinguish your wishful thinking from your concrete propositions though. You should have at least two lists. One is the Goals or objectives. In this one, we debate on what should be an ideal situation. The other one is, the Means and Solutions. In this one, you explain and debate how you will reach your goals. How to proceed.

The reason why I tell you this is, sometimes you can have a good idea but, you do not take the right solution to make it happen. And sometimes it is not necessary the plan that causes an issue. It's the base idea and you have to question yourself, is it really what we want?

We know communism failed and we know capitalism failed has well. It would be easy to pretend that the solution is somewhere in between but, it is more complex than that. We do not have the perfect system yet and there are room to debate about it.

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15 hours ago, Altai said:

I dont know in a detailed way that what is communism, my father told the same thing and I think communism is a system based on dictatorship, my system is based on democracy.

Communism is an economic system mainly.  As far as I know, all the major attempts to implement communism into a state political system used 1-party dictatorships to do so.  Lenin invented his own political system, Stalin reformed it into a brutal repressive regime, Mao created his own version of the system in China, etc. 

But there's nothing to say that a state that implements a communist economic system needs to be a totalitarian 1-party state, there's nothing to say it can't be democratic. There's a large number of variants to communism, even anarchist ones (no state government).

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18 hours ago, Altai said:




You will decide what you need and state will have to meet your need. 

 

So if I decide I need a bugatti veyron the state will HAVE to give me one? Nice. 

Do I have to prove I NEED one?

Cause I really do. 

 

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2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

But there's nothing to say that a state that implements a communist economic system needs to be a totalitarian 1-party state, there's nothing to say it can't be democratic. There's a large number of variants to communism, even anarchist ones (no state government).

But communist states with totalitarian governments are the only large scale implementations of communism. This suggests to me that communism cannot be implemented without a totalitarian government because free speech and democracy would quickly lead to the collective breaking apart as human selfish needs come to the fore.

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18 minutes ago, TimG said:

But communist states with totalitarian governments are the only large scale implementations of communism. This suggests to me that communism cannot be implemented without a totalitarian government because free speech and democracy would quickly lead to the collective breaking apart as human selfish needs come to the fore.

So the only way to stop human nature is to crush it with a totalitarian government. 

Does not sound like a utopia anymore. 

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44 minutes ago, TimG said:

But communist states with totalitarian governments are the only large scale implementations of communism. This suggests to me that communism cannot be implemented without a totalitarian government because free speech and democracy would quickly lead to the collective breaking apart as human selfish needs come to the fore.

But has it even been tried democratically? I have no idea.  Developing countries aren't exactly known for their democracy anyways.

If the idea of making Canada's economy communist was popular among the large majority of Canadians what's to prevent having it where 2 or 3 different communist parties compete in elections, each trying to convince voters that their party can most effectively run the economy etc.?

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Just now, Moonlight Graham said:

But has it even been tried democratically? I have no idea.  Developing countries aren't exactly known for their democracy anyways.

If the idea of making Canada's economy communist was popular among the large majority of Canadians what's to prevent having it where 2 or 3 different communist parties compete in elections, each trying to convince voters that their party can most effectively run the economy etc.?

Again - not sustainable as the selfish nature of humans would quickly come to the fore as different groups complain that they are being taken advantage of from their POV (which is often based on self-serving myths). The only way to create a sustainable system for large democracies is with an economic structure that accepts inequality as a natural consequence. Once inequality is accepted as a natural outcome it then becomes possible to argue for charity that mitigates the excesses of the system without feeling a need to eliminating the inequality.

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10 hours ago, Ash74 said:

Yes I really did read what you said.

Nowhere did you say that there would be a personal benefit to working. All you claimed is that all would love our jobs. Good luck with that.

You failed to mention that people would be given tasks by the state.

Every time somebody pokes holes in your Utopia theory you claim that we didn't read your original post.

I am sorry but as wonderful as this world you have created sounds it just would not work.


Ofcourse you will work, who will produce our needs if everyone stay at their house ? I said in the first post that we will be "expected" to make our jobs as happy persons. 

As I mentioned in the first post, currently this idea is just a draft and open to additional ideas, this is not a perfectly designed and finished system. 

Yes maybe you read my posts but you are just trying to make a fuss, you dont try to understand or you dont try to make positive suggestions. You are trying to kick my sand castle.

You dont have to live in my fair system. My system will also provide you a boat and two paddles if you want. 



 

So if I decide I need a bugatti veyron the state will HAVE to give me one? Nice. 

Do I have to prove I NEED one?

Cause I really do. 

 


If you mean luxury cars, yes you will have one in my system.

Edited by Altai

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11 hours ago, Benz said:

You say that you decide the color of your shoes and the system will bring it to you. No you don't. Neither in such system, nor in a capitalist system. In the capitalist system, you will be allowed to have the exact shape and colors only if the benefit of the supplier is great enough to make it worth it. Usually, it means that you are not the only one who wants it and therefore, the mass production bring it to a cheap unit cost. Or, the application of the color is so low cost that there is no issue for the supplier to personalize it for you. In your system, it is not true that the system can affort any customization an individual would required for a 3$ total cost. The cost of production would be too high and other kind of services or products would pay the price in return.

 


First, you need to get rid of the idea of money. There is no such a thing called "money" in my system. Money is something mankind created in their imagine World. They assigned a value for a piece of paper because everything in the World was owned by someones despite they dont have such a right and they started to trade in order to have the things which they dont have but someone else has.

 The World is our common property, you cant turn fences and own a part of its lands, you cant own its oceans, you cant own its underground and aboveground resources, you cant claim that you can breath more than me just because you have more imaginal papers called "money". 

After these basic informations above; 

in todays World you will have your dream shoes if you have sufficiently high amounts of money, factories will produce it for you or a custom workshop will produce it as just special for you.

in my system, both mode of productions above will be for free, it wont cost anything, there is no "money". 


 

Edited by Altai

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4 hours ago, Altai said:


First, you need to get rid of the idea of money. There is no such a thing called "money" in my system. Money is something mankind created in their imagine World. They assigned a value for a piece of paper because everything in the World was owned by someones despite they dont have such a right and they started to trade in order to have the things which they dont have but someone else has.

 The World is our common property, you cant turn fences and own a part of its lands, you cant own its oceans, you cant own its underground and aboveground resources, you cant claim that you can breath more than me just because you have more imaginal papers called "money". 

After these basic informations above; 

in todays World you will have your dream shoes if you have sufficiently high amounts of money, factories will produce it for you or a custom workshop will produce it as just special for you.

in my system, both mode of productions above will be for free, it wont cost anything, there is no "money". 


 

You are very confused. You want to get rid of the money system, but you are talking about luxury car. You seriously lack of the minimum of economical concepts.

You got it all wrong regarding money. It was an excellent, and still is, the best tools to make a trade. Before the money, the trading was complicated. If I have 10 chicken and I need a fish, a new hammer and a horse, I had to manage a way to exchange my chicken to get those things. The logistic is problematic. With the money, I can first sell my chicken and then, I can go buy the stuff I need. The money ansers a obvious need to ease trades.

The Big Owner you are talking about, was there before the money came in, is there while the money is and will be there after you get rid of money. There always has been and will always be a Big One that wants all the power. It's up to us to do what it needs to be done to prevent that. The money is just a tool.

To help you understand, here is a possible situation that we could do. Imagine that we decide that the current money has no longer any value. We create a new one and every body start from scratch. All the rich people would lose their fortune and they would not be capable to use the money they had so far. Bang! all their power, gone. Of course, it is easier to say than to do. Only people without money would accept such thing. You often see something similar in Trading Stock Exchange. It is possible to buy 50 000$ of share of a company worth 100$ per action, you go in vacation for one week and when you come back, you learn that a scandal stroke the company and the actions are now worth 0.10 cents each. There you go, your 50 000$ has melt into a tiny 50$. With the trading fees when you sell it, you end up with only 25$ in your pockets. It's common in a world of speculation. It's a very bad economical and financial system. But then again, the problem is not the money itself.

In your fantasy world, it's not true that you can have anything. It does not work that way. Someone has to build your shoes. Nothing is for free. Would you make your own shoes? Who decides who is going to build those shoes?

 

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7 hours ago, Altai said:


Ofcourse you will work, who will produce our needs if everyone stay at their house ? I said in the first post that we will be "expected" to make our jobs as happy persons. 

As I mentioned in the first post, currently this idea is just a draft and open to additional ideas, this is not a perfectly designed and finished system. 

Yes maybe you read my posts but you are just trying to make a fuss, you dont try to understand or you dont try to make positive suggestions. You are trying to kick my sand castle.

You asked for people's opinions in your first post and I am giving mine.

It is a wonderful concept but My opinion is that it will not work. It cannot because of human nature.

Some people will take advantage and some will see no reason to do more than is expected.

Why would you invite a longer lasting light bulb when the guy next door gets the same rewards when he/she cuts the grass at parks?

7 hours ago, Altai said:



You dont have to live in my fair system. My system will also provide you a boat and two paddles if you want. 
 

So your Utopia will banish those that do not submit.

Is there another land close by or is it a death sentence because there are some handy labor camps in North Korea  I am sure you could send people.

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On 09/10/2016 at 5:25 PM, Altai said:

I am open for additional ideas and positive-negative criticism about my aim to shape life in my country first and World life secondly.

First, I want a World where all the people live fairly. All people should be able to benefit equally from the opportunities of the World. I was born in the World and people who was arrived the World before me dont have such a right to limit my rights, like as building borders and creating different countries, privating lands and claiming ownership, privating underground and surface riches, dividing people into classes (for exmp; boss and worker), having different opportunities based on financial power. 

To ensure that, we need to eliminate "money". All the needs of people should be met by the state for free. Food, clothing, housing facilities, transport facilities, health facilities. Wont we work ? Ofcourse we will work but we wont work to make money, we will work just because we love our jobs. You will have a nice house with a nice kitchen, you will have a nice car, you will have your daily need of food. We will just be expected to make our job as happy persons without any concerns about daily life. 

This is similar to communism but not the same. For example, religions are prohibited in communism but its not in my system. You have to live equal and a poor life in communism but in my system you will live fair and luxury life. 

Would you like to live in such a country ? Why and why not ? What would be the bad and good sides of such a country ?

I would live in your country, how about the name Altaipia? It sounds wonderful to imagine such an equitable place where freedom is maximized and suffering is minimized.  In many ways is sounds like the world created by Gene Roddenberry.

I agree that the basic needs of every individual should be met by the state.  The world has made tremendous progress towards this goal - especially in the most developed countries.  On a per capita basis, hunger, poverty and violence are at all-time lows.  How did this happen?  IMO, it's mainly thanks to:

a) Increased productivity allowing more ressources to science and technology that further increases productivity

b. Increased trade and globalization that helped increase productivity but more importantly helped to convert enemies into trading partners/allies greatly reducing war

c) All the social safety nets - most of which were unimaginable 100 years ago

We should keep doing these things if we wish to progress further.  Money is crucial for trade and major force in uniting the world and I therefore suggest that you reconsider your plan to eliminate money.

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1 hour ago, carepov said:

I would live in your country, how about the name Altaipia? It sounds wonderful to imagine such an equitable place where freedom is maximized and suffering is minimized.  In many ways is sounds like the world created by Gene Roddenberry.

I agree that the basic needs of every individual should be met by the state.  The world has made tremendous progress towards this goal - especially in the most developed countries.  On a per capita basis, hunger, poverty and violence are at all-time lows.  How did this happen?  IMO, it's mainly thanks to:

a) Increased productivity allowing more ressources to science and technology that further increases productivity

b. Increased trade and globalization that helped increase productivity but more importantly helped to convert enemies into trading partners/allies greatly reducing war

c) All the social safety nets - most of which were unimaginable 100 years ago

We should keep doing these things if we wish to progress further.  Money is crucial for trade and major force in uniting the world and I therefore suggest that you reconsider your plan to eliminate money.


We dont need to name it, this is not fair to name it as I wish. It also has a name, World or Earth. Everyone could call it as they wish but probably we will need a new and common language. 


We wont need money because we wont need to make trade to have something which we dont have. Everything is also ours. You dont have to buy your own property.

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2 hours ago, Ash74 said:

You asked for people's opinions in your first post and I am giving mine.

It is a wonderful concept but My opinion is that it will not work. It cannot because of human nature.

Some people will take advantage and some will see no reason to do more than is expected.

Why would you invite a longer lasting light bulb when the guy next door gets the same rewards when he/she cuts the grass at parks?

So your Utopia will banish those that do not submit.

Is there another land close by or is it a death sentence because there are some handy labor camps in North Korea  I am sure you could send people.


Because people are different and they will be educated and trained since childhood according to their capabilities and interests. Be a engineer or be a gardener, they will be given all the same life standarts in all areas of life. 

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3 hours ago, Benz said:

You are very confused. You want to get rid of the money system, but you are talking about luxury car. You seriously lack of the minimum of economical concepts.

You got it all wrong regarding money. It was an excellent, and still is, the best tools to make a trade. Before the money, the trading was complicated. If I have 10 chicken and I need a fish, a new hammer and a horse, I had to manage a way to exchange my chicken to get those things. The logistic is problematic. With the money, I can first sell my chicken and then, I can go buy the stuff I need. The money ansers a obvious need to ease trades.

The Big Owner you are talking about, was there before the money came in, is there while the money is and will be there after you get rid of money. There always has been and will always be a Big One that wants all the power. It's up to us to do what it needs to be done to prevent that. The money is just a tool.

To help you understand, here is a possible situation that we could do. Imagine that we decide that the current money has no longer any value. We create a new one and every body start from scratch. All the rich people would lose their fortune and they would not be capable to use the money they had so far. Bang! all their power, gone. Of course, it is easier to say than to do. Only people without money would accept such thing. You often see something similar in Trading Stock Exchange. It is possible to buy 50 000$ of share of a company worth 100$ per action, you go in vacation for one week and when you come back, you learn that a scandal stroke the company and the actions are now worth 0.10 cents each. There you go, your 50 000$ has melt into a tiny 50$. With the trading fees when you sell it, you end up with only 25$ in your pockets. It's common in a world of speculation. It's a very bad economical and financial system. But then again, the problem is not the money itself.

In your fantasy world, it's not true that you can have anything. It does not work that way. Someone has to build your shoes. Nothing is for free. Would you make your own shoes? Who decides who is going to build those shoes?

 


I really dont understand your point and I dont know what you are trying to tell. Please keep following the topic. Soon there will be some real life actions of mine to start the System. 

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1 hour ago, Altai said:


Because people are different and they will be educated and trained since childhood according to their capabilities and interests. Be a engineer or be a gardener, they will be given all the same life standarts in all areas of life. 

  And who will make those decisions about children that will decide what they do for the rest of their lives?

Every time you give more detail you add more and more clues that your society will have more and more rules and shackles "all for the greater good"

55 minutes ago, Altai said:


I really dont understand your point and I dont know what you are trying to tell. Please keep following the topic. Soon there will be some real life actions of mine to start the System. 

You best start with an army to quell the riots.

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20 minutes ago, Ash74 said:

  And who will make those decisions about children that will decide what they do for the rest of their lives?

Every time you give more detail you add more and more clues that your society will have more and more rules and shackles "all for the greater good"

You best start with an army to quell the riots.


Ofcourse there will be rules for a regular community life. Kids themselves will decide for their life, we will just help them to take the right steps.

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