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sharkman

Waterboarding. Is it really that bad?

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23 hours ago, cybercoma said:

Torture is not effective for gathering intel and putting aside the harm it inflicts on the tortured, it also has "severe, long-term negative consequences on ... perpetrators and communities." The costs are grave, while the information gained from it is quite often faulty. If you care to be enlightened, here's an often cited bit of research on the matter. https://www.cgu.edu/pdffiles/sbos/costanzo_effects_of_interrogation.pdf 

Wow, so you read an article and now you discount that torture is not an effective tool to extract info.....I wonder if any of those, who make these claims have been tortured themslefs, today the military still runs escape and evasion course, and use mild forms of torture to extract info from each candidate, each candidate gets one week of classroom time, where they instruct them on E&E, along with methods to give you stamina while being torture.....then a one week field EX here the run the candidates through many different themes and different rescues techs.... they don't get alot of sleep during this period, the final 2 1/2 days are spent escaping and evading, prior to starting this EX they have printed on a card their worst fear, and if the interrogator finds this out they will fail the course.......nobody wants to invest that much time and pain and disconmfort only to be told they failed......so it is a great motivator..... everyone gets caught sooner or latter, and everyone talks sooner or later .......when they do get caught they are tired, exhausted, wet and cold, half the job is already done......+ note DND does not teach any forms of torture, nor do they condone any form of torture, this training is designed to teach soldiers how to resist torture attempts,and how to E&E.

They use only mild forms of torture......such as described below....that being said even those methods are again'st the law, both Canadian civil and military law,along with Geneva convention....and inter national law. 

Mild forms of torture include loud music, or babies crying, women screaming, children screaming and crying, light and dark, meaning blinding light on all the time, or a head covering so no light is visible, for long periods of time, Stress positions like back again'st wall Like a chair, sitting on hunches or heels, plank position, normally by combining these you can inflame joints to the point it is very painful. extreme hot and cold, done for 10 to 15 mins each time for long periods of time produces cold or flu symptoms quickly. No sleep, over long periods...Some are saying thats not very bad....it's because you have not been through it.....

Torture be it mild or extreme,  in the hands of someone how has mastered it can and will produce results, info gleaned from torture is backed up by facts they already know, or can be verified by other sources as well. this is not a short process, taking a day or several days to produce small results. depending on what rank and what info the subject was exposed to, Say Bin Ladin, they would squeeze him for years for any info he had.....

We had an MP give us a lecture on protecting our personal info, he took a picture off a guys phone, within 20 mins he handed him a piece of paper with his home address, bank account numbers, pictures of his kids and wife, where they worked and went to school , what type of car he drove and how much he owed on it etc etc ....very detailed info.....info that could be used again'st him....or convince him something bad is going to happen to any or all of them.....

Torture has been around since man got tired of playing with himself..... and it will be around long after we are gone....for something to last that long and not die out....has got to say something for it's effectiveness....don't kid your self it works. but it does have it's limitations.... 

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21 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Wow, so you read an article and now you discount that torture is not an effective tool to extract info

And you have a "feeling" it works, so you think it works.  What works better....   your feelings on a subject, or looking at what experts say about it?

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23 hours ago, Smallc said:

John McCain is against it.  I think he would know.  That's good enough for me.

He might be biased.

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1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Torture be it mild or extreme,  in the hands of someone how has mastered it can and will produce results

The question is will those results be correct. The example you give above is a result that can be immediately verified, and if it is not the torture continues. What is the turnaround time for verification because that is a very important factor to consider.

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10 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

The question is will those results be correct. The example you give above is a result that can be immediately verified, and if it is not the torture continues. What is the turnaround time for verification because that is a very important factor to consider.

I'm not sure that's even a factor.   Whether it works or not, the USA has signed onto multiple treaties and torture is illegal, regardless of the effectiveness.   Although, arguing it's effectiveness is a total lie, given all the evidence to the contrary. 

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9 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

I'm not sure that's even a factor.   Whether it works or not, the USA has signed onto multiple treaties and torture is illegal, regardless of the effectiveness.   Although, arguing it's effectiveness is a total lie, given all the evidence to the contrary. 

 

Okay, so what will happen if the U.S. violates the treaties ?   What's so special about these treaties compared to others that are "broken" ?

Are beheadings a treaty violation ?

 

Edited by bush_cheney2004

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18 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Okay, so what will happen if the U.S. violates the treaties ?   What's so special about these treaties compared to others that are "broken" ?

Are beheadings a treaty violation ?

 

Eventually, I would imagine some Hague court dates...  but no consequences yet...   as per the lawyer's article I cited earlier.

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35 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Okay, so what will happen if the U.S. violates the treaties ?   What's so special about these treaties compared to others that are "broken" ?

Are beheadings a treaty violation ?

 

So you're happy with your country violating habeas corpus.

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2 minutes ago, Omni said:

So you're happy with your country violating habeas corpus.

 

Yes...violating habeas corpus was good enough for Abraham Lincoln and the U.S. Congress.

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Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Yes...violating habeas corpus was good enough for Abraham Lincoln and the U.S. Congress.

Right then, so much for the rule of law, and yet another reason why bush is afraid leave the country. But he did seem to get away with breaking his own country's laws. Ever hear of Rasul v Bush? 

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1 minute ago, Omni said:

Right then, so much for the rule of law, and yet another reason why bush is afraid leave the country. But he did seem to get away with breaking his own country's laws. Ever hear of Rasul v Bush? 

 

Give it up....President Bush will never face BS charges from The Hague.  Neither will PM Chretien or Martin.  The U.S. will do whatever the hell it wants to either directly, or through proxy client states.   Nothing new or special about Trump or his CIA in this regard.   Breaking laws is the easy part. 

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4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Give it up....President Bush will never face BS charges from The Hague.  Neither will PM Chretien or Martin.  The U.S. will do whatever the hell it wants to either directly, or through proxy client states.   Nothing new or special about Trump or his CIA in this regard.   Breaking laws is the easy part. 

Rasul v Bush has nothing to do with The Hague.

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4 minutes ago, Omni said:

Rasul v Bush has nothing to do with The Hague.

 

I don't think you understand.....the United States will continue to pursue its interests through legal and other means whenever necessary or desired. 

All U.S. presidents have done it, and will continue to do so.    There is nothing those in the peanut gallery can do about it, and in the case of Canada, some nations actually join in on such actions (e.g. Maher Arar).   

Edited by bush_cheney2004

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2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

I don't think you understand.....the United States will continue to pursue its interests through legal and other means whenever necessary or desired. 

All U.S. presidents have done it, and will continue to do so.    There is nothing those in the peanut gallery can do about it, and in the case of Canada, some nations actually join in on such actions (e.g. Maher Arar).   

One thing I will agree with you on is that Bush at least didn't come to office trailing so many lawsuits. Although he and Cheney did "big time" it with Iraq. Between emoluments and Trump U the Donald is off to quite a start. I really want to see him testify. He'll be really sniffing for that show I bet.

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1 minute ago, Omni said:

One thing I will agree with you on is that Bush at least didn't come to office trailing so many lawsuits. Although he and Cheney did "big time" it with Iraq. Between emoluments and Trump U the Donald is off to quite a start. I really want to see him testify. He'll be really sniffing for that show I bet.

 

Off topic and irrelevant to state sponsored torture and renditions.   President Trump is insulated from civil and many legal liabilities because of executive privilege.

President Trump will do exactly what previous American presidents have done.   Why would it change now ?

 

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3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Off topic and irrelevant to state sponsored torture and renditions.   President Trump is insulated from civil and many legal liabilities because of executive privilege.

President Trump will do exactly what previous American presidents have done.   Why would it change now ?

 

Yes off topic so I will leave it alone, but ask you if you've ever heard of a guy named Bill Clinton?

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5 minutes ago, Omni said:

Yes off topic so I will leave it alone, but ask you if you've ever heard of a guy named Bill Clinton?

 

Yes...we had a President Bill Clinton who followed President Ronald Reagan with the idea of extraordinary rendition and "torture" by client states.

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1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Yes...we had a President Bill Clinton who followed President Ronald Reagan with the idea of extraordinary rendition and "torture" by client states.

Who had to testify.

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Just now, Omni said:

Who had to testify.

 

I will try to explain it one more time....the political and legal aftermath is secondary to the pursuit of U.S. and allied interests.  

Plausible deniability is built into the game.   

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2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

I will try to explain it one more time....the political and legal aftermath is secondary to the pursuit of U.S. and allied interests.  

Plausible deniability is built into the game.   

You get away with thread drift but most of us don't so I will leave you there.

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