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dialamah

Free Speech or Hate Speech?

Free Speech or Hate Speech  

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1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Yup, I've read a bit more on the Al Quds thing and some of their rhetoric does seem pretty violent.    Do we need some tightening up on hate speech laws so that groups like Quds have less room to incite their followers?   Or online forums such as the ones which Alexandre Bissonette frequented?   Or is it more important to avoid limiting free speech as much as possible, even if it means the death of a few innocent people?

 

There is already a law against hate crime, if I'm not mistaken.   It's just a matter of implementing them.

 

You can't control the internet.  The only way to do that is to forbid people to use it, or take the service away.

Perhaps we should look at the internet as we would alcohol or cigarettes - minors not allowed.

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If this mosque was preaching antisemitic hatred, then they should be protested.  However, the protestors lose their moral high ground when they are as hateful as the place they're protesting.  

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2 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Free speech should not be something we hide behind in order to practice outright hate, that does not support free speech but instead degrades it.

 

I outright hate mosquitos, poverty and murder. I guess I need to be put in prison.

 

This infantile war on 'hate' is stupid and dangerous. We should be against specific ideas or actions, not emotions. Hate is a useful human emotion and it's not that you hate that is the issue. It is what you hate and how you act upon that hate that matters.

Edited by -1=e^ipi

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4 hours ago, dialamah said:

If Bissonnette when from an ordinary kid to a killer within a few months of joining an alt-right group, don't you think that needs to be looked at a bit more closely?

All those are purely speculations.  We don't know if the alt right was the thing that motivated him to be a killer.  Some have implied it was Trump!

We never heard anymore about Bissonnette.  That, in itself, is unusual.

Edited by betsy

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5 minutes ago, betsy said:

All those are purely speculations.  We don't know if the alt right was the thing that motivated him to be a killer.  Some have implied it was Trump!

We never heard anymore about Bissonnette.  That, in itself, is unusual.

 

Actually, we do know he was posting on alt-right sites and that he admired Le Pen and Trump.    At least one of his friends thought he was radicalized over a few months starting in the spring of 2016 after he'd seen Le Pen speak, and other people said he trolled with anti-Muslim and anti-feminist comments.

I'd say there are two reasons why there hasn't been a lot more news on him. 1.  This is Canada and we don't feel the need to go on and on and on.  2.  and probably more important - he's not a Muslim who killed non-Muslims so it's not that big a story anyway.

 

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13 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Actually, we do know he was posting on alt-right sites and that he admired Le Pen and Trump.    At least one of his friends thought he was radicalized over a few months starting in the spring of 2016 after he'd seen Le Pen speak, and other people said he trolled with anti-Muslim and anti-feminist comments.

I'd say there are two reasons why there hasn't been a lot more news on him. 1.  This is Canada and we don't feel the need to go on and on and on.  2.  and probably more important - he's not a Muslim who killed non-Muslims so it's not that big a story anyway.

 

 

So he's posting.  It's pure speculation to say  that the alt right sites were responsible for his killing!  You don't know.  A friend also said he was bullied, and he kept to himself.

 

We've gone on for weeks talking about notorious killers and what made them do it!  Why is it so suddenly quiet with Bissonnette?  Where's the update on this?  Considering he's partly the cause of all this debate we're having now!

Edited by betsy

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27 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

So he's posting.  It's pure speculation to say  that the alt right sites were responsible for his killing!  You don't know.  A friend also said he was bullied, and he kept to himself.

 

 

2

Yeah, I agree - alt-right sites don't cause most people to kill other people.   It's the same for Muslims: the Quran doesn't make most of them strap on a vest.   However, some Muslims do carry out terror attacks because of what they read in the Quran (or are told what the Quran says), so why should it be so impossible that an already unstable kid was influenced enough by alt-right sites to decide that some Muslims had to die?   

Quote

We've gone on for weeks talking about notorious killers and what made them do it!  Why is it so suddenly quiet with Bissonnette?  Where's the update on this?  Considering he's partly the cause of all this debate we're having now!

 

Well, I suppose because when it's suggested that maybe the alt-right sites this kid was following had some influence on his actions, very few are willing to even consider that might be a factor.    If Muslims can be radicalized enough to kill by online sites or local groups, why not a non-Muslim?

 

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27 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Yeah, I agree - alt-right sites don't cause most people to kill other people.   It's the same for Muslims: the Quran doesn't make most of them strap on a vest.   However, some Muslims do carry out terror attacks because of what they read in the Quran (or are told what the Quran says), so why should it be so impossible that an already unstable kid was influenced enough by alt-right sites to decide that some Muslims had to die?  

Well, that's not a good comparison. 

If a jihadist kills following the doctrine of the Quran - of course you can say that it was the Quran (religion) that made him a jihadist!  The term jihadist alone makes that clear.  According to Merriam, the definition of a jihadist is  a Muslim who advocates or participates in a jihad.   So the terrorist who says he's killing for Allah, is doing it due to the Quran. The imam who teaches and encourages jihad, is also doing it because of what's in the Quran!

 

You can't conclude that alt right sites are responsible for the person killing blacks, or Jews, or Muslims.  If alt right sites are causing people to become murderers, shouldn't we be inundated by massacres by now considering there are so many people who go to those sites?  The frequency and numbers of killers should rival jihadists, right?

For all you know there is a triggering factor why a person goes on a killing spree.  You have to know what that trigger factor is.  It could be the alt right site.  Or something else.

 

All Jihadists are Muslims.  (Because that's the definition of a jihadist).

BUT, not all killers like Bessonette are necessarily white supremacists, or triggered by alt right sites.

Edited by betsy

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28 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

Well, I suppose because when it's suggested that maybe the alt-right sites this kid was following had some influence on his actions, very few are willing to even consider that might be a factor.    If Muslims can be radicalized enough to kill by online sites or local groups, why not a non-Muslim?

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't consider the alt right site factor.  I'm saying, don't conclude that it is.

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55 minutes ago, betsy said:

I'm not saying you shouldn't consider the alt right site factor.  I'm saying, don't conclude that it is.

We agree. ;)

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3 hours ago, dialamah said:

Actually, we do know he was posting on alt-right sites and that he admired Le Pen and Trump.    At least one of his friends thought he was radicalized over a few months starting in the spring of 2016 after he'd seen Le Pen speak, and other people said he trolled with anti-Muslim and anti-feminist comments.

 

Bisonnette liked Le Pen and Trump of facebook, but he liked other groups. He liked Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, so maybe he was motived by radical atheism. He liked the pope so maybe he was motivated by radical Catholicism. He liked some feminist groups, so maybe he was motivated by radical feminism and acting against gender segregation in segregated mosques. He liked Doom, Call of Duty & Marilyn Manson; so maybe we need to go with the 90's narrative that was used after the Columbine shootings and say that the attacks were motivated by violent video games and rock music. He also liked Jack Layton and the NDP, so maybe the motivation was NDPism.

 

The fact is we don't have sufficient information to make any reasonable conclusions about what the motive was. Unlike the attack by Breivik in Norway, Bisonnette didn't provide us with a detailed manifesto indicating his motive.

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53 minutes ago, -1=e^ipi said:

motived by radical atheism

What is this?  Can you point to leading characters who kill for atheism?   Like a bin Laden type?   What tenets of atheism gets you to kill Muslims?

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2 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

The fact is we don't have sufficient information to make any reasonable conclusions about what the motive was. Unlike the attack by Breivik in Norway, Bisonnette didn't provide us with a detailed manifesto indicating his motive.

1

I think the reason the alt-right groups stand out is because they are among those who express dislike for immigrants, Muslim and feminists.   But yeah, Bisonnette didn't provide us with an explanation so who knows.   Maybe he got evicted from his apartment, Mom said he couldn't come back home and he figured jail was a better bet than the street.

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6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I think the reason the alt-right groups stand out is because they are among those who express dislike for immigrants, Muslim and feminists.   But yeah, Bisonnette didn't provide us with an explanation so who knows.   Maybe he got evicted from his apartment, Mom said he couldn't come back home and he figured jail was a better bet than the street.

 

To be fair, it's an explanation that fits a narrative that I think a large section of the media wants to push. So we should be concerned about the potential of confirmation bias to skew what the media presents (i.e. the media may only be presenting evidence that supports 1 narrative and ignoring evidence which may suggest an alternative narrative).

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6 hours ago, dialamah said:

I think the reason the alt-right groups stand out is because they are among those who express dislike for immigrants, Muslim and feminists.   But yeah, Bisonnette didn't provide us with an explanation so who knows.   Maybe he got evicted from his apartment, Mom said he couldn't come back home and he figured jail was a better bet than the street.

 

The alt right stood out because progressives and libs want to pin the blame on Trump and Bannon! 

I wouldn't be surprised at all if most vandalism of mosques in America and Canada are done by progressives and libs (to lay the blame on the alt right)....then they can say, see? Trump is causing all these!  Now, there's Islamophobia even in Canada, so now's the time to re-visit the motion in Parliament! 

 

After the mosque massacre in Quebec, the Canadian media asked leading questions to their panel like - do you think this has something to do with Trump and his executive order?  They're pushing that narrative!

Edited by betsy

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6 hours ago, dialamah said:

   But yeah, Bisonnette didn't provide us with an explanation so who knows.   Maybe he got evicted from his apartment, Mom said he couldn't come back home and he figured jail was a better bet than the street.

Or....maybe he just went nuts.  And he happened to focus on Muslims because terrorism is very much in the news! 

Jihadists killing people.....It's all you read about these days.  If jihadists can inspire others to copycat their methods, it can just as easily trigger an unstable person to go tit-for-tat, thinking he'll do a pay-back.

 

Who knows what goes in the minds of these people.

Edited by betsy

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21 hours ago, betsy said:

It's okay.  I read your OP.  That's why I'm saying those same protests messages have been spoken by Muslims as well.

 

So why would they be any different? In fact, Al Quds have even gone as far as calling for Israel to be wiped out.  That's worse!

While your record of citation indicates you are likely taking their words out of context and that they were probably calling for the political state of Israel to return to its roots as Palestine and not talking about killing people, if what you misrepresent were in fact the case, yes, it would be hate speech too.

See how easy it is to debate things honestly?

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2 hours ago, betsy said:

The alt right stood out because progressives and libs want to pin the blame on Trump and Bannon!

Ahhh, no. The alt right stood out because of the evidence. You know the real facts and not the alternative facts.

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22 hours ago, dialamah said:

 

I  think the response of the community to offer support to the Mosque and to make it clear to the protesters that their beliefs are not shared by the majority of people, and that their actions are socially unacceptable and unwelcome is the most effective counter to this kind of hate.

 

 

Do you have evidence of this or is this your feelings being transferred?

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Just now, drummindiver said:

Do you have evidence of this or is this your feelings being transferred?

Evidence that people disagree with what the protesters were saying?   It's all in the articles I posted.   

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15 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Ahhh, no. The alt right stood out because of the evidence. You know the real facts and not the alternative facts.

What evidence?    Be specific.

 

 

Edited by betsy

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11 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Evidence that people disagree with what the protesters were saying?   It's all in the articles I posted.   

 

If you mean what protesters say that's quoted in your OP.....where's the evidence that all people disagree with what protesters were saying?  I checked out your articles - both from the CBC....nothing says there that "people disagree with what the protesters were saying."

 

Cops are investigating whether it's a hate speech.  That's all.

 

Cite.

 

Edited by betsy

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