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dialamah

Free Speech or Hate Speech?

Free Speech or Hate Speech  

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2 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

If you mean what protesters say that's quoted in your OP.....where's the evidence that all people disagree with what protesters are saying?

Did they do any referendum?

 

 I didn't say all I said most.   

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Just now, dialamah said:

 I didn't say all I said most.   

 

Where does it says that?   How did you come up with that?  Cite.

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9 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

 

To be fair, it's an explanation that fits a narrative that I think a large section of the media wants to push. So we should be concerned about the potential of confirmation bias to skew what the media presents (i.e. the media may only be presenting evidence that supports 1 narrative and ignoring evidence which may suggest an alternative narrative).

 

Sure, that's reasonable.   I don't see the media "pushing" this narrative, but they do look for reasons - as we all do - and it seemed he did change after seeing La Pen and began frequenting alt-right groups online and posting anti-immigrant and anti-feminist comments.   

I'm looking forward to a W-5 expose when they can get it organized, or maybe a book written by his twin brother in a few years.   

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6 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

I believe that was covered in the thread on the Quebec city mosque, let's not derail this one.

 

Don't censor me.  I know what I'm talking about!  I dont' care about that other thread - she made a claim on this thread.

 

Quote

Evidence that people disagree with what the protesters were saying?   It's all in the articles I posted.   

I checked out the articles on her OP.  Nowhere does it support her claim!

Edited by betsy

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5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Sure, that's reasonable.   I don't see the media "pushing" this narrative, but they do look for reasons - as we all do - and it seemed he did change after seeing La Pen and began frequenting alt-right groups online and posting anti-immigrant and anti-feminist comments.   

I'm looking forward to a W-5 expose when they can get it organized, or maybe a book written by his twin brother in a few years.   

You haven't provided a cite on your claim.  I'm waiting.

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23 hours ago, dialamah said:

I  think the response of the community to offer support to the Mosque and to make it clear to the protesters that their beliefs are not shared by the majority of people, and that their actions are socially unacceptable and unwelcome is the most effective counter to this kind of hate.

Or they could be applauded for speaking out for what they believe, without committing a crime.

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Quote

 

23 hours ago, dialamah said:

I  think the response of the community to offer support to the Mosque and to make it clear to the protesters that their beliefs are not shared by the majority of people, and that their actions are socially unacceptable and unwelcome is the most effective counter to this kind of hate.

 

Well, that's different.  We're talking killings on this particular mosque - that's not a protest!  That's multiple murder!

  Of course if I may be so bold as to claim that majority of Canadians doesn't support killings of any kinds - and that includes all victims of terrorisms, regardless of creed, race, sex , or orientation!

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47 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Evidence that people disagree with what the protesters were saying?   It's all in the articles I posted.

 

40 minutes ago, betsy said:

I checked out your articles - both from the CBC....nothing says there that "people disagree with what the protesters were saying."

 

40 minutes ago, betsy said:

Cite.

 

From the articles:

Quote

With signs of love and support plastered to its exterior, Masjid Toronto bore little sign on Saturday of the rally held there just a day before, during which more than a dozen people — with banners and loudspeakers in hand — called for a ban on Islam as Muslims prayed inside.

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Toronto police say they have received multiple complaints about the demonstration,

 

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But he was even more struck by the spontaneous counter-protest and shows of support by passersby and strangers, many of whom he says weren't Muslim.

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The shouting was so loud that Tera Goldblatt, who works on the 21st floor in a nearby building, said she could hear it from inside her office.   When she came down to see what was going on, she said, she saw some 15 people screaming, some blocking the path of those trying to enter the mosque.   "And it makes me really angry because that's not part of life and it's not freedom of speech. It's awful and hateful and it shouldn't be allowed."

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Bryant Greenbaum also witnessed the protest. "You don't do it in front of a place of worship on the holiest day of the week for Muslim people, and in an intimidating manner," he told CBC Toronto. 

 

 

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Mayor John Tory and city councillor Kristyn Wong-Tam sent tweets condemning the protest. 

 

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But the protest also resulted in some other unexpected messages — from strangers who wanted to show their support for those inside.

The following are just some of the signs taped to the mosque's exterior in the rally's wake. 

 

 

Overall the messages of support for the mosque and condemnation of the way in which the protesters behaved outnumbered the protesters who showed up. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Evidence that people disagree with what the protesters were saying?   It's all in the articles I posted.   

Mr. Khan from the mosque stating the public was behind them is hardly evidence.

The posters I saw read said "Say NO to Islam"  Hardly hate speech.

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13 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

Overall the messages of support for the mosque and condemnation of the way in which the protesters behaved outnumbered the protesters who showed up. 

 

 

 

Really. Yet the article quotes only one lady who showed up the next day.

Your link also states the police are not investigating this as a hate crime. Because in Canada we are supposed to be allowed to voice our opposition. I oppose M103 vehemently. What is your stance?

Edited by drummindiver

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Just now, drummindiver said:

Mr. Khan from the mosque stating the public was behind them is hardly evidence.

The posters I saw read said "Say NO to Islam"  Hardly hate speech.

 

Well, perhaps it's perception.   At least one person who was actually there considered it hate speech.   The cops aren't sure it rises to hate speech, but are investigating.   I, personally, don't think it was given the information in the articles, however ugly and unacceptable I find it on a personal level.    

And there was more than just Mr. Khan from the Mosque saying the public was behind them.   There were many printed messages left at the mosque; there were strangers approaching the Mosque occupants to say nice things, and there were people speaking to the reporter.   

Perhaps you agree with the protesters, and that's ok too.   But agreeing with them doesn't make the fact that more people disagree than agree false.  

 

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3 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

The posters I saw read said "Say NO to Islam"  Hardly hate speech

Yes, those were certainly the main printed signs from the organized part of the protest. I agree that is not hate speech. It was the other hand written signs, and what was verbally shouted that is in issue. Were people blocked from attending the mosque or not. We need more answers from the investigation.

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3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Well, perhaps it's perception.   At least one person who was actually there considered it hate speech.   The cops aren't sure it rises to hate speech, but are investigating.   I, personally, don't think it was given the information in the articles, however ugly and unacceptable I find it on a personal level.    

And there was more than just Mr. Khan from the Mosque saying the public was behind them.   There were many printed messages left at the mosque; there were strangers approaching the Mosque occupants to say nice things, and there were people speaking to the reporter.   

Perhaps you agree with the protesters, and that's ok too.   But agreeing with them doesn't make the fact that more people disagree than agree false.  

 

Your link distinctly states it is not being investigated as a hate crime.

And i'm sure members of the mosque spoke out against the rally. That is their right.

And I agree with free speech.

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4 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Yes, those were certainly the main printed signs from the organized part of the protest. I agree that is not hate speech. It was the other hand written signs, and what was verbally shouted that is in issue. Were people blocked from attending the mosque or not. We need more answers from the investigation.

Again, from Dialamah's link, there is no investigation. No hate crime was deemed to have occurred.

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7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Well, perhaps it's perception.   At least one person who was actually there considered it hate speech.   The cops aren't sure it rises to hate speech, but are investigating.   I, personally, don't think it was given the information in the articles, however ugly and unacceptable I find it on a personal level.    

And there was more than just Mr. Khan from the Mosque saying the public was behind them.   There were many printed messages left at the mosque; there were strangers approaching the Mosque occupants to say nice things, and there were people speaking to the reporter.   

Perhaps you agree with the protesters, and that's ok too.   But agreeing with them doesn't make the fact that more people disagree than agree false.  

 

From your link

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-anti-muslim-rally-1.3990606

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5 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

Your link also states the police are not investigating this as a hate crime

 

From my link:

Quote

Police are looking into whether an anti-Islam rally held on the doorstep of a mosque in the heart of downtown Toronto Friday had any criminal element and whether it could be considered a hate crime.

 
 

 

Quote

Douglas-Cook said it's too early to determine whether the incident will be considered a hate crime but that they are looking into the possibility.

 

 

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The police received many complaints, but they are awaiting a formal complaint from the mosque in order to begin a formal investigation. I guess many phone calls don't constitute a formal complaint, the police only work on a written (preferably from an expensive lawyer) complaint.

Edited by ?Impact

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3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

That is not my link.  But thanks for the update; I didn't think they'd consider it a hate crime.  

That is from your link in the OP. I just got it from there.

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3 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

The police received many complaints, but they are awaiting a formal complaint from the mosque in order to begin a formal investigation. I guess many phone calls don't constitute a formal complaint, the police only work on a written (preferably from an expensive lawyer) complaint.

Here we go with not being able to voice our opinion. Of course muslims complained, but I've also reads many accounts that it was a peacefull rally.

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2 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

Here we go with not being able to voice our opinion. Of course muslims complained, but I've also reads many accounts that it was a peacefull rally.

If you were going to church on Sunday with your kids, and there was a large crowd blocking the entrance with signs that said "No to Christianity" and others that talked about pedophilia, etc. and they had megaphones and were shouting insults, would you be all sunshine and lollipops?

Again we don't have an investigation so we don't know the specifics. The police won't investigate until your Minister launches a formal complaint, most likely costing your church thousands in legal expenses.

 

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5 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

 Of course muslims complained, but I've also reads many accounts that it was a peacefull rally.

That's beside the point.

Here's the definition:

 

Quote

 

The Criminal Code of Canada[edit]

Sections 318, 319, and 320 of the Code forbid hate propaganda.[3] "Hate propaganda" means "any writing, sign or visible representation that advocates or promotes genocide or the communication of which by any person would constitute an offence under section 319."

Section 318 prescribes imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years for anyone who advocates genocide. The Code defines genocide as the destruction of an "identifiable group." The Code defines an "identifiable group" as "any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation."

Section 319 prescribes penalties from a fine to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years for anyone who incites hatred against any identifiable group.

Under section 319, an accused is not guilty: (a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true; (b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text; (c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or (d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.

Section 320 allows a judge to confiscate publications which appear to be hate propaganda.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Canada#The_Criminal_Code_of_Canada

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13 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

That is from your link in the OP. I just got it from there.

Drummindiver's Link that says no hate crime:  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-anti-muslim-rally-1.3990606

My first link:  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-investigate-anti-muslim-rally-hate-crime-1.3990044

My second link:  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/anti-muslim-protest-masjid-toronto-1.3988906

Take a look at the bolded numbers at the end of the links, they are all different.   

Again, thanks for the update.  

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