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Altai

You are ruled by Sharia

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1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Funny how you only let the Quran "talk" when it suits your particular interpretation and agenda.   I guess that's what "interpretation" means. 

 

 

You're free to make your case for the Quran being benign and peaceful. Perhaps quote the bit where if someone takes a life it is as if your killing all of humankind...lol.

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1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Is the behavior of the Jehovah's Witnesses the responsibility of the wider Christian community?   Is the behavior of pedophilic priests the responsibility of Christians outside the Catholic church?   If Mennonite men are in the habit of raping their wives and daughters, is that something Blackbird, as a Christian, should be held responsible for?

 

I "get" where you're trying to go with this.

If a religion has a main teaching that says, "If you sacrifice your life to our God while engaging in jihad, you get to rape 72 virgins in the afterlife for doing it" and then that religion fails to clearly define what "jihad" is and just lets each person define it on their own according to their own interpretations, then yes....they are responsible for how their adherents behave.  They don't get to just sit back and say, "Hey, not our fault."

With pedophiles in the priesthood, did the entire Christian world just sit back and say, "Those priests don't represent Christianity." and do nothing about it?  No, it was exposed, it was dealt with - by the religion that was responsible for it - and it was done publicly so all could see.

If you can't see how Islam's teachings on jihad, the denigration of women and their attitudes towards non-Muslims have contributed to the free-for-all devastation they are wreaking upon the world right now, I can't help you. If you can't see that what's going on has been set in place by ideological dogma, which is now the vehicle used to express themselves, I can't help you.  To stick by your position that Islamists have nothing whatsoever to do with Islam is just absurd.  You want to stifle any conversation  about the connection between Islamic ideology and Muslim intolerance and violence, in the name of political correctness.  Obfuscating like you do does nothing except protect Muslims from having to grapple with this issue.

When a person devotes themselves fully to the extreme versions of Islam and states  his religious reasons for doing so and confesses his certainty about martyrdom on video before he blows himself up, you don't consider this as evidence that the religion's dogma is responsible.  But if he said he did it because he's full of despair and revulsion for the West, you'd accept it at face value.  The religion is exonerated.  Any criticism of Islam is met with accusations of bigotry, Islamophobia and racism.  You want to hold hands with extremists by defending medieval cultural aspects of the religion, "Because it's their culture and we have to protect it!!", then you are throwing feminist Muslims, gay Muslims and ex-Muslims under the bus.  These are the very people who need us to speak up.  By stifling this discussion, you think you're doing them a favour, but all you're really doing is making the idiotic right wing the loudest voice in this and No, I don't agree with their extreme views of "all Muslims are this way or that way."  I've had nothing but bad experiences with Muslims and I don't even think that's the way they  ALL are.  But enough of them are to make the world pretty miserable right now.

They are in desperate need of reform and they are fighting it tooth and nail.  

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4 minutes ago, Goddess said:

With pedophiles in the priesthood, did the entire Christian world just sit back and say, "Those priests don't represent Christianity." and do nothing about it?  No, it was exposed, it was dealt with - by the religion that was responsible for it - and it was done publicly so all could see.

What, did you seriously just type that? Maybe in a few generations you might get away with that, but now you sound like a holocaust denier.

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The Quran will not be "reformed". Especially at the behest of the kafir.

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2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I "get" where you're trying to go with this.

 By stifling this discussion, you think you're doing them a favour, but all you're really doing is making the idiotic right wing the loudest voice in this and No, I don't agree with their extreme views of "all Muslims are this way or that way."  I've had nothing but bad experiences with Muslims and I don't even think that's the way they  ALL are.  But enough of them are to make the world pretty miserable right now.

They are in desperate need of reform and they are fighting it tooth and nail.  

1

I don't believe you do get where I'm going with this.

I agree reform of Islam is a good.  And yes, they are fighting it tooth and nail.  But so did Christianity - and they still are, but we don't see it as such, because for the most part they've submitted to the secularism and humanity we've demanded of them.   But when you consider that American Christian politicians support anti-Gay legislation in Uganda, you have to have some inkling that the evil within Christianity is still there, just muted.

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but all you're really doing is making the idiotic right wing the loudest voice in this and No, I don't agree with their extreme views of "all Muslims are this way or that way."  I've had nothing but bad experiences with Muslims and I don't even think that's the way they  ALL are.  But enough of them are to make the world pretty miserable right now.

 

Please keep in mind that any attempt I've made to meet the "idiotic right wing" half way has been completely disregarded and I have been vilified because I refuse to jump on the bandwagon of "Islam is evil".   I can agree that there are problems within Islam, as a religion, that many of the practices inherent in Middle Eastern and African Muslim majority countries are abhorrent and to be condemned.  I can't agree these are strictly "islamic" issues, however, when I see the same things happening in non-Muslim majority countries.  

And if you take the simple thing of child marriage and your statement that child marriage is a problem of Islam when it's clearly a worldwide problem and the country which has the most child-marriages isn't even a Muslim country, then how can I take your claim of being moderate and fair-minded seriously?  

Someone telling me that presentation of facts means I won't discuss the problem of Islam rationally or that I'm stifling discussion says a lot about where their bias is and the echo chamber they are looking for.

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, dialamah said:

 ....I refuse to jump on the bandwagon of "Islam is evil".

 

 

 

 

 

What is your favorite thing about Islam? What is the best quality?

Christianity for example, has awesome music...

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11 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

What, did you seriously just type that? Maybe in a few generations you might get away with that, but now you sound like a holocaust denier.

I grant that the church was basically forced to deal with it.

I wasn't going to get into a detailed history of how it was handled. 

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The word "kafir/kaffir" was firstly used in Quran by Allah. It was not used before Islam. It derivers from "kefere" root which means "becloud", "hide", "cover up", "farmer". 


Its used in Quran by Allah to describe people who hides "facts". There are also other adjectives of kafirs such as being agressive, offensive, liar, stingy, arrogant etc...


So the word kafir does not mean "those who dont believe in Allah". Someone may not believe in Allah but he/she may be an ordinary-harmless person. But there is a huge group of people that who dont believe in Allah and wants to harm Muslim people. This ones are the kafirs.


There is no word in Quran that means "non-Muslim" or "who dont believe in Allah". 

The word kafir is also used to describe persons who "rejects" Allah. So you cant reject an "uncertainty", because you cant prove there is no God. 

Edited by Altai

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Arguing about whether Islam can be reformed is ludicrous.  There is only one biblical truth.  "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me."  John ch14 vs6   There are many religions but there is only one Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.  The Lord said in the book of Isaiah "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah ch 43 vs 11.  These verses make is clear there is absolutely no salvation in other religions.  One must born again by faith in Jesus. There is no other way. 

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1 minute ago, blackbird said:

One must born again by faith in Jesus. There is no other way. 

So abortion, or killing children too young to reason is fine because they are damned anyway?

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8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Someone telling me that presentation of facts means I won't discuss the problem of Islam rationally or that I'm stifling discussion says a lot about where their bias is and the echo chamber they are looking for.

Then why keep stifling discussion on Islam by bringing up Christianity?  

It doesn't matter what anyone says, you pipe up with some obscure or ancient (or sometimes applicable :) ) example of Christians.

Why can we not discuss Islam on its own?  Every time its discussed, you come in, flip the gameboard and send the peices all over the room and then act like you're the saviour of the game.

I feel like Christianity has been divesting itself of many problems for quite a while.   Obviously there is still work to do, but strides have been made.  And as I said before, I agree they were basically forced by public opinion to change.  

How will Islam be motivated to change if we keep saying, "Oh well, other people did the same in the past." or "Oh, look! some obscure Christian group is doing the same right now."

It doesn't move the discussion forward.

If we all officially acknowledge that we believe there were problems in Christianity and that there continue to be some problems in Christianity, will we then be allowed to discuss what's going on in Islam without having the gameboard tossed across the room?

 

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5 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

So abortion, or killing children too young to reason is fine because they are damned anyway?

I don't understand your perverse logic.  Murder is condemned in the Bible. "thou shalt not kill".   Jesus loved little children and said of such is the kingdom of God.

I think I see what you are getting at.  If someone is mentally incapable of understanding the gospel, either because they are too young or are an infant, and they pass away, most churches believe they will go to heaven.  God is a just God and merciful and as the bible says, he wills that non will perish.

Edited by blackbird

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2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 Jesus loved little children and said of such is the kingdom of God.

The why does he forsake them. I believe it was one of his disciples that had to create a loophole, but certainly one that is not consistently used by all Christians. I don't think Mennonite children are baptized until they are almost adults.

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Why the hell doesn't this stupid god of ours just snap it's supremely powerful fingers and fix everything?

He/She can create an infinite number of universes but it can't do that? Talk about perverse logic.

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Just now, eyeball said:

Why the hell doesn't this stupid god of ours just snap it's supremely powerful fingers and fix everything?

It's called free will. The video game is not really that interesting if you use he cheat code.

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8 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

The why does he forsake them. I believe it was one of his disciples that had to create a loophole, but certainly one that is not consistently used by all Christians. I don't think Mennonite children are baptized until they are almost adults.

I don't think Jesus forsakes children.   There are different views about when believer's children should be baptized.  Two schools of thought:  infant baptism in Reformed and Presbyterian churches (and some other denominations)  and in Baptist churches, believer's baptism.  However, it comes down to the truth that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone.  Churches that baptize infants believe baptism is a sign and a seal.  Baptists who baptize older children when they profess their faith have a similar belief but perhaps slightly different about the meaning of baptism.  That is a whole different subject.  The essential thing is a person must be born again to receive eternal life. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"  book of Acts

Edited by blackbird

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Just now, blackbird said:

The essential thing is a person must be born again to receive eternal life. 

Killing Muslims isn't essential enough?

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Our first issue was the marriage age. So big part of countries puts a lower age limit to allow youth people, because we should prevent them to make mistakes until they reach enough maturity. All countries supports it because this is the logical behavior. Logic brings them to the same result. So which is told by Sharia 1,5 millennium ago. 


Now lets choose another issue; Secularism

What does secularism means. The original meaning of secularism was to treat citizens independently from their religions. In time, its meaning was changed by atheist people and began to describe atheist governments. Sharia defends people's freedom of faith and it rules over people "secularly" since last 1,5 millennium.

Verse 2:256 says that there is no compulsion in the system. 

Verse 16:125 wants prophet to be gentile against people while inviting them for Islam.

Verse 50:45 warns the prophet and says that he is not a bully on people.

Verse 10:99 warns the prophet and says that he cant force people to be Muslims. 

Verse 4:135 orders that Muslims have to be fair, they cant even make a unfair favor for their own family members. 

Verse 5:8 orders that even if Muslims does not like some people, still they have to be fair. 






 

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2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I don't think Jesus forsakes children

...

The essential thing is a person must be born again to receive eternal life. 

So does that mean there is a third place you can go?

2 minutes ago, Altai said:

Verse 2:256 says that there is no compulsion in the system.

Once you enter the system, are you compelled to stay?

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1 hour ago, ?Impact said:

So does that mean there is a third place you can go?

Once you enter the system, are you compelled to stay?

Saying "There is no compulsion in the system" is a fairly comprehensive definition. Do whatever you want.

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1 hour ago, Charles Anthony said:

Folks, 

Please avoid derailing the discussion. 

Hello sir, I am the owner of this topic and I am trying to keep it within boundaries. 

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