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drummindiver

Full day kindergarten

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Wynne poorly defends FDK and the 1.5 billion needed to run it per annum. Studies prove there is no benefit. Parents already get child tax benefits. Pandering for votes. Should FDK be scrapped or is this just another political bargaining tool for the many families that need cheap daycare? (Cheap for them....1.5 billion from the tax coffers)

http://m.torontosun.com/2017/08/28/premier-wynne-opens-mouth-inserts-foot

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Of course, it's just for votes. 

And, getting kids from the cradle into the system,  as early as they can!   That's in-line with Communism.

Edited by betsy

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4 hours ago, betsy said:

Of course, it's just for votes. 

And, getting kids from the cradle into the system,  as early as they can!   That's in-line with Communism.

Communism!  :D

Key findings from year 3 of FDK in Peel:

  • children who participated in FDK in comparison to children who participated in half-day kindergarten were significantly ahead in vocabulary at the end of kindergarten and have remained ahead in Grades 1 and 2. This is a very important finding given the critical foundation of vocabulary throughout the school years.
  • FDK children were also significantly ahead in self-regulation as evidenced by their performance on the Head-Toes-Shoulders-Knees Task which measures attentional and inhibitory control and behavioural self-regulation. 
  • On other academic measures such as early reading, writing and number knowledge, the senior kindergarten FDK cohort children, but not the junior kindergarten cohort, have remained ahead of their half-day peers.
  • all children appear to enjoy kindergarten regardless of program.
  • FDK parents in comparison to half-day kindergarten parents rated their children higher on all eight indices, four showing significant differences between the groups: small muscle development, general knowledge, letter-sound knowledge and number knowledge.
  • FDK not only helps children, but helps their parents as well by providing supports for full-day learning including helping in homeschool communication and reducing daily hassles. 
  • Since this research will continue until all children have finished Grade 2 and perhaps beyond, it is still too early to determine long-range effects in these other areas. New academic measures for older children will be employed this year in Year 4 and scores added to the database. Nevertheless, given the results on vocabulary and the strong performance in self-regulation it can be stated that children in FDK have benefited from their time in FDK. 

Do either of you have children?  Can you relate to the stress of working parents having children in half day programs?

Edited by WestCoastRunner
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37 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Communism!  :D

Key findings from year 3 of FDK in Peel:

  • children who participated in FDK in comparison to children who participated in half-day kindergarten were significantly ahead in vocabulary at the end of kindergarten and have remained ahead in Grades 1 and 2. This is a very important finding given the critical foundation of vocabulary throughout the school years.
  • FDK children were also significantly ahead in self-regulation as evidenced by their performance on the Head-Toes-Shoulders-Knees Task which measures attentional and inhibitory control and behavioural self-regulation. 
  • On other academic measures such as early reading, writing and number knowledge, the senior kindergarten FDK cohort children, but not the junior kindergarten cohort, have remained ahead of their half-day peers.
  • all children appear to enjoy kindergarten regardless of program.
  • FDK parents in comparison to half-day kindergarten parents rated their children higher on all eight indices, four showing significant differences between the groups: small muscle development, general knowledge, letter-sound knowledge and number knowledge.
  • FDK not only helps children, but helps their parents as well by providing supports for full-day learning including helping in homeschool communication and reducing daily hassles. 
  • Since this research will continue until all children have finished Grade 2 and perhaps beyond, it is still too early to determine long-range effects in these other areas. New academic measures for older children will be employed this year in Year 4 and scores added to the database. Nevertheless, given the results on vocabulary and the strong performance in self-regulation it can be stated that children in FDK have benefited from their time in FDK. 

Do either of you have children?  Can you relate to the stress of working parents having children in half day programs?

 

Who did this so-called "study?"   Scroll down below, you'll fine the references.  here's #1:

Arimura, T. (2008). Daily routines, parenting hassles, and social support: The role that early
childhood services play in parents’ and children’s daily life. Unpublished M.A. thesis,
University of Toronto.

 

-------------------------------

 

Quote

Full-Day Kindergarten Is Better For Parents Than Kids

Our neighbours to the south already tested the effects of all-day kindergarten when the U.S. introduced its lauded Head Start program in 1998. It has failed spectacularly. The results from the Head Start Impact Study Final Report show that "no significant impacts were found for math skills, prewriting, children's promotion, or teacher report of children's school accomplishments or abilities."

In fact, the study shows that among the Head Start group, 55 per cent of four-year-olds can recognize all their letters by the end of kindergarten. Compare this to the control group, where 58 per cent of four-year-olds can recognize all their letters by the end of kindergarten.

 

A 2010 peer reviewed study from Duke University shows that any benefits from attending full-day kindergarten "disappeared" by Grade 3.

Furthermore, "children may not have as positive an attitude toward school in full-day versus half-day kindergarten and may experience more behaviour problems."

 

Kids First Parent Association of Canada is not impressed with the move toward all-day kindergarten. "There is not one peer-reviewed empirical study of long-term outcomes for children in universal 'early learning' programs that demonstrates benefits over costs. Not one."

 

https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/opre/head_start_report.pdf

 

 

 

 

Edited by betsy

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If there is no difference shown by age 3 then why the backlash against this program?  If you want to increase the birth rate in Canada, having FDK would I think be one incentive.

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Kindergarten is "learning" daycare and kids seem to love it.  I think that's great.  I raised two kids and know the challenges of "half day" schooling (which only last one year - two if you include playschool).  My opinion is this:  FDK should be offered to all parents that want to utilize it....at whatever it costs the educational system to provide.  Want it "taught" by union teachers?  Okay, then the cost will be far, far above daycare but that's your choice.  Taxpayers should not be on the hook for what is, ostensibly, daycare.

And if you think kindergarten is supplying learning that daycares aren't, then maybe it's time to evaluate your choice of daycare.  Colors, numbers and touching your toes - daycare or kindergarten - they should both be teaching them.

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Why would full time daycare increase the birth rate?  Is that what people are actually doing while their kids are eating finger paints?

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4 minutes ago, Hydraboss said:

Why would full time daycare increase the birth rate?  Is that what people are actually doing while their kids are eating finger paints?

Countries have introduced child care subsidies to increase the birth rate. Even you said this is a form of daycare. 

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If we're going to spend taxpayer money on it, I'd like to see some decent studies that say it works.  Kindergarten IS nothing more than daycare - provided by union personnel at multiples the cost of daycare itself.

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At the end of the day it doesn't matter much if there's a benefit to child learning or not, because that's not the purpose what FDK is and whether it was beneficial or not wouldn't have much bearing if the program continued or not I'd wager...it might only factor into if FDK or full-day daycare was chosen to be subsidized.  This is about votes & the (sad) reality that we want the state to raise our kids instead of parents/families.  Don't know of many other animals/mammals who have strangers raising their offspring so mommy & daddy can afford those BMW payments and the bigger house with the huge master bedroom, on-suite bathroom, & walk-in closet.

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I bet if kindergarten were more like a Klingon military prep school the usual suspects would be calling for residential kindergartens.

Spare the rod....spoil the society.

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16 hours ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Communism!  :D

Key findings from year 3 of FDK in Peel:

  • children who participated in FDK in comparison to children who participated in half-day kindergarten were significantly ahead in vocabulary at the end of kindergarten and have remained ahead in Grades 1 and 2. This is a very important finding given the critical foundation of vocabulary throughout the school years.
  • FDK children were also significantly ahead in self-regulation as evidenced by their performance on the Head-Toes-Shoulders-Knees Task which measures attentional and inhibitory control and behavioural self-regulation. 
  • On other academic measures such as early reading, writing and number knowledge, the senior kindergarten FDK cohort children, but not the junior kindergarten cohort, have remained ahead of their half-day peers.
  • all children appear to enjoy kindergarten regardless of program.
  • FDK parents in comparison to half-day kindergarten parents rated their children higher on all eight indices, four showing significant differences between the groups: small muscle development, general knowledge, letter-sound knowledge and number knowledge.
  • FDK not only helps children, but helps their parents as well by providing supports for full-day learning including helping in homeschool communication and reducing daily hassles. 
  • Since this research will continue until all children have finished Grade 2 and perhaps beyond, it is still too early to determine long-range effects in these other areas. New academic measures for older children will be employed this year in Year 4 and scores added to the database. Nevertheless, given the results on vocabulary and the strong performance in self-regulation it can be stated that children in FDK have benefited from their time in FDK. 

Do either of you have children?  Can you relate to the stress of working parents having children in half day programs?

No studies to back up Peels findings.  Every where children are doing worse, not better.

Edited by drummindiver

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I have been in full day kindergarten while I was soo small. I had some good and some bad memories there. For example I learned to brush my teeth there, how to wash my hands. We were forced to sleep afternoons, so they were putting us in the beds and waiting for us to sleep and I was never sleeping and waking up all the other kids :lol: There was a car in its garden (yes a real car), it was used as a toy (yes I am not kidding). Whenever we were allowed to get out to the garden everyone was running to the car to take a place in it. One day again we were out and I runned to the car and took the last space in it, then a bully guy came to me who was out of the car and wanted me to leave the car. Ofcourse I said "NO", then he again wanted me to leave the car and again I said "NOOOO", he just grabbed a stone from the ground and again wanted me to leave the car and again I said "NOOOOOOOOOOO", so he though with his small brain that I will be afraid of him because of a weapon he has :rolleyes: and he threw that stone directly to my head and scratched my head. I dont remember the rest :lol: I just remember everyone was in panic and they could not stop my bleeding for long time. 

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20 hours ago, WestCoastRunner said:

If this incentive increases the birthrate, wouldn't that mean less immigration of those dark skinned immigrants.

Why only dark skinned? What are you suggesting that there are no light skinned immigrants?  No it just seems that way. I saw a couple of them once. I think they came from Poland.

Your point means what? You think people are anti immigrant only because immigrants are not white? That's as bigoted assumption is it not or does bigotry only apply when it has nothing to do with white people? Where were you when Micks, Ukes, Kikes, Waps, Krouts who came to Canada were being spit at?  You think anti-immigration is only because of race issues. Horse crap. It has to do with many conflicts not just skin colour. Skin colour or the race card is what you play to shut down the debate about immigration. I am not a racist because I am concerned about the criteria for qualification to be an immigrant. I am not a racist because I am concerned some people may bring their bigoted intolerance with them and demand it be allowed based on the Charter guaranteeing them religious freedom.

I am not a racist or a bigot if I believe fundamentalist Islam is incompatible with many of our democratic values that we fought hard to achieve. No I do not want a society that covers the faces of women, demands they be treated second class, and teaches its children people of other religions are inferior infidel kafir dhimmi the same reason I don't want neo Nazis coming in, Boca Raton coming in from Nigeria, Iranian terrorist sympathizers and so on. No people doin't get to hide behind their race or religion card if they are undemocratic, intolerance, violent or assholes or a combo of these. I have the right to say something.

But thanks, I know you have never ever in your life had any biases against any people

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FDK is at best wasteful and possibly regressive.

It's no secret that the best practices in education are in Finland, we should be copying them:

"In Finland, children don't receive formal academic training until the age of 7. Until then, many are in day care and learn through play, songs, games and conversation. Most children walk or bike to school, even the youngest. School hours are short and homework is generally light."

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0318-doyle-finnish-schools-20160318-story.html

Kindergarten starts at age 6 - where a typical school day is just four hours long.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/10/the-joyful-illiterate-kindergartners-of-finland/408325/

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On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 5:16 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

At the end of the day it doesn't matter much if there's a benefit to child learning or not, because that's not the purpose what FDK is and whether it was beneficial or not wouldn't have much bearing if the program continued or not I'd wager...it might only factor into if FDK or full-day daycare was chosen to be subsidized.  This is about votes & the (sad) reality that we want the state to raise our kids instead of parents/families.  Don't know of many other animals/mammals who have strangers raising their offspring so mommy & daddy can afford those BMW payments and the bigger house with the huge master bedroom, on-suite bathroom, & walk-in closet.

This may be the best post I've read on this forum. So true. Most people don't realize their reliance on the state to raise their kids, while making posts on facebook and twitter about how great their kids are.

 

I'm not sure your age MG, but you definitely exude wisdom.

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On 8/29/2017 at 3:16 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

Don't know of many other animals/mammals who have strangers raising their offspring so mommy & daddy can afford those BMW payments and the bigger house with the huge master bedroom, on-suite bathroom, & walk-in closet.

There's not many share in the raising of offspring but the ones that do are generally more intelligent and socially developed than the other animals around them.  They do it because it confers an advantage to the survival of their offspring and species.

But like I said perhaps something more like a military prep school would be a better more appropriate choice for us.

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On 8/29/2017 at 3:42 PM, Hydraboss said:

Why would full time daycare increase the birth rate?  Is that what people are actually doing while their kids are eating finger paints?

You have to ask?????!!!!

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On 9/2/2017 at 1:17 PM, eyeball said:

There's not many share in the raising of offspring but the ones that do are generally more intelligent and socially developed than the other animals around them.  They do it because it confers an advantage to the survival of their offspring and species.

Since the evidence is that we shit in our own nest, overpopulate beyond sustainability, breed indiscriminatley and spend our intelligent moments trying to figure out how to screw our fellow man out of resources or make weapons to kill them more efficiently (without eating the liberated protein and fats), I would ague that point.

Edited by cannuck

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On 8/29/2017 at 4:16 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

At the end of the day it doesn't matter much if there's a benefit to child learning or not, because that's not the purpose what FDK is and whether it was beneficial or not wouldn't have much bearing if the program continued or not I'd wager...it might only factor into if FDK or full-day daycare was chosen to be subsidized.  This is about votes & the (sad) reality that we want the state to raise our kids instead of parents/families.  Don't know of many other animals/mammals who have strangers raising their offspring so mommy & daddy can afford those BMW payments and the bigger house with the huge master bedroom, on-suite bathroom, & walk-in closet.

I believe to some children are required accessories so they can fit in...

I think we need to start realizing we just can't have it all, in my opinion raising our own children should considered a career choice and should be supported as such. I can't understand how someone can bring a child into the world, stick with it a few months then hand it over to others to raise. I realize there are circumstances that may make it necessary but as a society we should have more and better ways to keep children and parents together. I have four siblings, we were raised on the farm by our parents, we all grew up and entered different career and life paths. Of the five of us one chose career over children, there are eleven children among the rest of us and not one of our children had a nanny or entered a daycare. So far between us, our spouses and our children there are no drinkers, smokers, no drugs, no criminals no random offspring, divorces etc.. I realize this is just a very small sample and maybe we are just lucky but there are other families like ours that seem to be doing as well and there are other that had children raised by others that don't seem to be doing nearly as well.

By the way, all day kindergarten gets my vote, saves having to drive into town to either pickup or drop off the kid. Better for the environment too :)

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On 10/1/2017 at 10:21 PM, Thinkinoutsidethebox said:

I believe to some children are required accessories so they can fit in...

I think we need to start realizing we just can't have it all, in my opinion raising our own children should considered a career choice and should be supported as such. I can't understand how someone can bring a child into the world, stick with it a few months then hand it over to others to raise. I realize there are circumstances that may make it necessary but as a society we should have more and better ways to keep children and parents together.

The other very sad reality is that children born in Canada and stay-at-home parents are considered a net drain on our economy. The government doesn't want stay-at-home parents because a parent who isn't working isn't producing GDP and isn't earning income therefore they reduce government tax revenue compared to if a parent worked, reduce overall GDP, and reduce money spent in the economy which further reduces GDP/economic growth.

Why would the government value children (even those born in Canada) that tax dollars need to be spent on (like healthcare and education) and who produce little tax revenue & GDP (since they don't work many hours until out of school) when the government can import working-age immigrants who will almost immediately contribute to the economy?  Children also take parents out of the economy, which is a further drain.  People who aren't full-time working age are a net economic drain in our capitalist system.

Edited by Moonlight Graham

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14 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The other very sad reality is that children born in Canada and stay-at-home parents are considered a net drain on our economy. The government doesn't want stay-at-home parents because a parent who isn't working isn't producing GDP and isn't earning income therefore they reduce government tax revenue compared to if a parent worked, reduce overall GDP, and reduce money spent in the economy which further reduces GDP/economic growth.

Why would the government value children (even those born in Canada) that tax dollars need to be spent on (like healthcare and education) and who produce little tax revenue & GDP (since they don't work many hours until out of school) when the government can import working-age immigrants who will almost immediately contribute to the economy?  Children also take parents out of the economy, which is a further drain.  Children full-time working age are a net economic drain in our capitalist system.

It is a sad state of events...

Government wants everybody to work yet they are financing and encouraging technology, robots, automation, globalization, exporting jobs etc. to replace people in the workforce. Maybe it's time to step back and look at the big picture. What exactly is their ultimate goal? Besides buying votes?

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