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Brief concept of Geomocracy.


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19 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Bonam, the estimates are publicly accessible.

I don't want estimates, I want proper accounting for every dollar actually received and spent. I want the books to be audited yearly by an independent 3rd party agency who represents taxpayer interests, and the report of their findings published in full for everyone to read. 

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Corruption and bribery are covered by the Criminal Code of Canada. That is not to say there is no corruption.

Indeed. And yet, even in Canada, a nation relatively low on corruption compared to many others, we have many examples of corruption at the highest levels of government. And despite the criminal code, I don't recall hearing about any of those engaged in the corruption actually going to jail. 

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Compensation for government workers is mandated by their collective agreement. Workers in the private sector have comparable compensation when they are protected by a union.

Companies in the private sector have to make a profit, or they go bankrupt (or, these days, get bailed out by the government I suppose). Therefore if employees can bargain higher wages at a private company while the company still makes money, everyone wins. On the other hand, government employee salaries are paid by taxpayers. Government bosses don't have to weigh whether they will run out of money if they raise salaries, because they can't... government gets its money from taxpayers, and paying its employees is never in question because the government can always just go deeper in debt if it wants. Therefore, public sector union salaries can go up arbitrarily high without any check and balance to make sure they are reasonable. In fact, many government jobs receive far higher wages than what is necessary to recruit quality people for those jobs. I don't begrudge those people their good paying jobs, they are smart to take them, but governments need to do a better job keeping costs under control, and right now there is absolutely no incentive of any kind for them to do so.

Politicians don't get voted out for failing to keep costs down, because most people don't care about the details of government finances, and even for those people that do care, the information to analyze government finances in detail is mostly not available. Hence my want for proper open accounting as mentioned above. 

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Governments base their spending priorities on public demand. Education and healthcare for instance. They assist businesses to prevent unemployment. This is something voters demand. Voters demand a lot.

Education and healthcare are fine things to spend money on. Voters demand a lot of things, things that have been provided just fine in the past with lower tax revenues, and yet things that the government seems constantly unable to provide adequately now despite higher tax revenues. Why? Waste, corruption, and no ability or incentive to keep costs under control. Ever see government workers working on some infrastructure? One guy working and 20 guys standing around. And they're all being paid double for overtime since the project they're working on is, of course, behind schedule. 

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" I want the books to be audited yearly by an independent 3rd party agency who represents taxpayer interests..."

Auditor General.

43 minutes ago, Bonam said:
44 minutes ago, Bonam said:

Politicians don't get voted out for failing to keep costs down, because most people don't care about the details of government finances, and even for those people that do care, the information to analyze government finances in detail is mostly not available. Hence my want for proper open accounting as mentioned above. 

That is an argument against Anthony's proposal

 

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14 hours ago, Anthony said:

The reason for identification is to prevent one individual from having multiple accounts and also take responsibility for his/her actions.

There is a difference between "identifying" and "exposing". We already have technology in place for identifying a person, to prevent individuals from having multiple accounts. Yet it is not necessary to publicly list how they voted.

On your second point, any so-called "dangerous" referendum questions should be properly vetted before they even go to a vote. There is no need to publicly expose people's voting choices to "hold them accountable", if the vote is a completely legal one. What exactly do they need to be held accountable for?

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16 hours ago, Bonam said:

You can ask, but you don't generally get good answers. 

I think this is the same for all the countries. I can understand that governments would not like to explain all their plans due to national security concers but in this case there will be many stories fabricated and government will lose the public trust in time especially if the media agencies are not state controlled.

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Analogous example:

Lets step into a car dealership, where you have decided on your perfect car. It has everything you want from color,  look to a healthy powered engine. The car, your favorite, will be delivered to you 2 weeks from now, as the lease is approved.

Two weeks later a knock at your door and a flashy new car in the drive way sends you rushing outside to check out your new ride. But upon further examination you noticed the paint was already beginning to fade. Opening the door to your surprise you find no seats, not even a steering wheel. Popping the hood you find no engine installed.  You quickly phone the dealership, thinking maybe they sent you an electric car? Unfortunately no. In fact you have received the "proper" car, a 4 wheeled painted frame. Months go by as you argue with the dealership, manufacture and finally try to gather enough for a class action lawsuit. But no court will hear your lawsuit, at you unwittingly agreed to a contract where it is not guaranteed that the manufacture has to provide the product you bought. In fact you are stuck with your 4 wheeled painted frame for the next 4 years paying a signification portion of your paycheck, waiting for the dealer to determine when they want to terminate the contract of 4 years. 

One would say this would be a ridiculous situation, that it would never happen in the real world, yet this is tends to happen with some democratic representative governments.

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The reason I bring up Geomocracy is to encourage discussion on outdated governmental systems.

One can to question why we have representatives when we have the technology to vote online.

One can question why we need to translate through a multitude of government officials before our options or societal problems are examined decades later.

Why our systems take decades to correct for issues within society or corrections to failed decisions made previous due to misleading information. 

Why the Canadian government feels a 2.139  + Billion dollar fund every 4 years is necessarily the optimum approach for the house of commons which fails to recognize citizen desires. 

How about our individual ability to see a simple or complex problem within society yet feel powerless as our only chance is to vote someone who claims to care about our lives. Hoping that the Prime minister and cabinet brings up our issues.

Geomocracy may not be the answer, but do we really want to accept a 150 year old governmental system that makes decisions that are not for the benefit of Canada or Canadian citizens?

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6 hours ago, Anthony said:

How about our individual ability to see a simple or complex problem within society yet feel powerless as our only chance is to vote someone who claims to care about our lives. Hoping that the Prime minister and cabinet brings up our issues.

Geomocracy may not be the answer, but do we really want to accept a 150 year old governmental system that makes decisions that are not for the benefit of Canada or Canadian citizens?

How about concerned citizens getting themselves organized and running a preferred candidate for parliament? Too much effort, and besides , then it would be necessary to somehow convince others that the preferred candidate is not a one-issue candidate but would address their concerns too.  Sort of a being accountable to the electorate kinda thing. 

  This Geomocracy idea is a fantasy of the lazy who want influence but have no desire to lift a finger in the process. 

   

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21 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

There is a difference between "identifying" and "exposing". We already have technology in place for identifying a person, to prevent individuals from having multiple accounts. Yet it is not necessary to publicly list how they voted.

On your second point, any so-called "dangerous" referendum questions should be properly vetted before they even go to a vote. There is no need to publicly expose people's voting choices to "hold them accountable", if the vote is a completely legal one. What exactly do they need to be held accountable for?

I agree with you OftenWrong, there is a difference. I am trying to avoid the problems that current systems use, where a number 3322 or alias "jollyjoe" is used. Look at forum and other social media, the ability to troll or corrupt someone is based on others not being able to identify you. If real names were used online, peoples interaction online be become extremely different. 

I have talk with many people about the issue you brought up and I tend to agree with you. Due to certain splits between people in society and the violent chaos that might insue because of "exposing" people, it might be best just have secure recognition for identifying citizens just for the voting systems. ( most of this was examined during Plato/Aristotle time)

Making Voting members identity public is probably an incorrect approach.

Thank you OftenWrong, keep up the good discussion.

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If we were to have some kind of commentary system for citizens, I suggest that the cost of the army of bureaucrats who collate, summarize, and in turn draft into proposed legislation wouild not only cost as much as, if not more than our current parliament, but now you have taken out of the hands of someone elected to represent you and I and put into the hands of unaccounable bureaucrats to generate what would ultimately become legislation - and that would be an even BIGGER disaster than what the current army of bureaucrats and lobbyists pull wool over the eyes of parliamentarians now.

No, I could not support the idea of that kind of "direct democracy", but what I could support is elimination of rule-by-special-interest.   Make lobbying highly illegal, and make partisanship also illegal.   Representatives would actually represent, rather than toe some party line that was shaped by donors and lobbyists.  Overlap terms as do the Yanks so there is always an experienced core.  Parliament would elect ministers from their ranks according to qualification, and have the power to remove same.  Ditto on full recall for elected members by the electorate.

THEN, I believe we could have some sort of direct democracy that was effective by having your representatives present proposals that have been vetted and debated for online voting, instant referendae for critical issues.  Ditto recall of representatives or legislation they had passed would need only sufficient number of voters to chime in on line.

BTW: earlier, someone commented that Canada produces the best of politicians:  how the frick do you explain the unbelivably poor excuses now sitting in Cabinet and 24 Sussex?

Edited by cannuck
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