Why Israel does not want a sovereign Palestinian state

[Hudson Jones 79]

While Israel and its mouthpieces try to distract the big elephant in the room, by repeating ridiculous distracting arguments like: "They will not accept Israel as a Jewish State." - like anyone is obligated to do so - we are now decades into the Israeli occupation.  The realization of a Palestinian State continues to move further away. Especially with the always increasing illegal settlers in the Palestinian territory, which are over 620,000 now.

Despite the song and dance to the international community, Likud's official platform has been to never allow a Palestinian State and Netanyahu, in 2015, running for re-election, vowed that there would be no Palestinian state on his watch. 

Security is another excuse given for the foot dragging by Israel. 

Here is an article that looks at Israel's unwillingness to allow a Palestinian State:

what explains Netanyahu’s opposition to Palestinian statehood?

We can only find an answer to this question by widening the scope of our enquiry, and accepting the unpleasant but undeniable fact that opposition to Palestinian sovereignty is a position that has been shared by every single Israeli government, and remains so today, across the political spectrum.

[bush_cheney2004 3,152]

This "revelation" comes as no surprise.

Israel's staunch opposition to Palestinian statehood is consistent with the historical stances of many sovereign states that occupy territory and build settlements.   In North America, these settlements started at outposts and forts to control the native population and foster economic/political expansion, and grew to be large cities and states/provinces with many millions in population. 

Israel is doing exactly what any threatened nation state is expected to do.....vigorously protect its interests.

So why is Israel being held to a different standard ?

[Hudson Jones 79]

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Israel is doing exactly what any threatened nation state is expected to do.....vigorously protect its interests.

Israel already has a state and a border.

The occupation is outside its borders.

[bush_cheney2004 3,152]

1 minute ago, Hudson Jones said:

Israel already has a state and a border.

The occupation is outside its borders.

 

The borders of other nations, including those in North America, are an occupation on unceded territory to this day.

Israel is consistently doing the same.   So what's the problem ?

[Hudson Jones 79]

49 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The borders of other nations, including those in North America, are an occupation on unceded territory to this day.

Israel is consistently doing the same.   So what's the problem ?

Canada has an internationally recognized border and is not occupying another land. Israel has an internationally recognized border and is occupying another land.

[bush_cheney2004 3,152]

1 minute ago, Hudson Jones said:

Canada has an internationally recognized border and is not occupying another land. Israel has an internationally recognized border and is occupying another land.

 

Not true....most of British Columbia was never ceded.   It is occupied by the "Crown" and many "settlements" have been built...many natural resources taken.

Israel is acting consistently in this regard.     After all, Israel is no bigger than Vancouver Island....Canada (or the USA) cannot credibly preach to Israel on such matters.

[H10 46]

The answer is obvious.

1. If Palestine because a soverign state, they gain the right to all kinds of rockets, guns, full auto weapons and anti aircraft weapons that would turn the tide of war

2.  If Palestine becomes a state, Israel's stealing of territory becomes a violation of international law requiring invasion and un deployment of troops

3.  Israel can't steal Palestine's land anymore, and Israel is overpopulated.

4.  It is all moot, Palestinians have far more kids than Israelis, Israel will take over all of Palestine, and Israel will become an arab state again or formal apartheid system

[eyeball 1,192]

18 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

So what's the problem ?

The problem is how two wrongs make a right.

[bush_cheney2004 3,152]

16 minutes ago, eyeball said:

The problem is how two wrongs make a right.

 

Totally irrelevant when it comes to nation state interests.

Like Canada, Israel will act to defend against existential threats and control/exploit natural resources (e.g. water).

[eyeball 1,192]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Totally irrelevant when it comes to nation state interests.

Only to sycophants though.

Quote

Like Canada, Israel will act to defend against existential threats and control/exploit natural resources (e.g. water)

Unlike canada however, Israel's actions will continue worsening the plight of the people whose lands Israel is occupying and increase the number of negative consequences Israel faces.  Even more unlike my region where control over resources and their exploitation by natives is growing.yielding much more positive consequences such as a trickle down effect being felt throughout my region.  Treaty settlements and the end of occupation are probably the biggest economic driver where I live. Israel OTOH is a sovereign welfare case that's badly missed out on the benefits of settling its differences with its indigenous peoples - missed out so badly in fact that it's chance to ever realize them has come and gone.

It'll have to be your way or the highway now. Good luck with that. Don't forget to bring your chequebook.

[bush_cheney2004 3,152]

52 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Unlike canada however, Israel's actions will continue worsening the plight of the people whose lands Israel is occupying and increase the number of negative consequences Israel faces.  Even more unlike my region where control over resources and their exploitation by natives is growing.yielding much more positive consequences such as a trickle down effect being felt throughout my region.  Treaty settlements and the end of occupation are probably the biggest economic driver where I live. Israel OTOH is a sovereign welfare case that's badly missed out on the benefits of settling its differences with its indigenous peoples - missed out so badly in fact that it's chance to ever realize them has come and gone.

 

Actually, Palestinians have fared much better than many "aboriginals" in Canada, given Canada's long history of occupation, settlements, residential schools, sterilization, resource theft, lack of potable water, "Sixties Scoop", etc. , etc.   Canada would not tolerate terrorism, kidnappings, and rocket attacks any more than Israel.

Israel doesn't have the luxury of occupying half a continent and dominating native people based on more than 150 years of imperial power and subjugation that continues to this day.   Israel will act in like fashion when faced with existential threats and resource scarcity.

 

Quote

It'll have to be your way or the highway now. Good luck with that. Don't forget to bring your chequebook.

 

You'll be paying more than me for the continued occupation of British Columbia and other native lands.     God Save the Queen.

Edited November 17, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[Hudson Jones 79]

On 11/16/2017 at 5:12 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Not true.

No, it's true. Both Canada and Israel have internationally recognized borders but only Israel is occupying another land.

 

[bush_cheney2004 3,152]

4 hours ago, Hudson Jones said:

No, it's true. Both Canada and Israel have internationally recognized borders but only Israel is occupying another land.

 

 

A Palestinian state and requisite borders are not recognized by many nations, including Canada.

 

Quote

As of 14 September 2015, 136 (70.5%) of the 193 member states of the United Nations and two non-member states have recognized the State of Palestine. Many of the countries that do not recognize the State of Palestine nevertheless recognize the PLO as the "representative of the Palestinian people".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine

 

[Rue 997]

I would point out the person who started this thread engaged me on another thread where I challenged  and exposed his false representation of Israeli state positions and his misrepresentations as to the positions of the PA and Hamas to recognizing the state of Israel. Rather then have the integrity to respond he started a new thread to avoid having to respond to me and has now made the same false statements again in a new thread.

I would argue the very title of this thread is not an invitation to debate but pronounces a falsehood, specifically a false attribution of position placed on all Israelis. The title of his thread is false. It is  not the position of the state of Israel or any Israeli. He does not speak for either or know what the state of Israel or Israelis want. In fact he has made it clear on this forum he believes anyone who believes in Zionist ideology has cancer that needs to be wiped out. As such any claim or pretense of discussing the conflict as if he understands the Israeli position is a joke.

Let's be clear what the state of Israel position is. It is public record as to its attempts over the years to initiate and attempt to recognize and make peace with Palestinians. It is public record that Arafat told the world his negotiations with Israel were a sham, simply a bad faith stalling exercise and he stated the PA would never accept a Jewish state and would never stop until Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza are all taken back and turned into a Palestinian sharia law state and with terrorism and violence.

That remains the position of the PA and Hamas. In fact Mr. Abbas stood up in his assembly, confirmed this and cheered and gave a standing ovation as fellow PA members called for war and terror to take back Israel.

The constitutions of Hamas and the PA are public record and make the above positions clear as is possible calling for holy war to continue until Israel is turned into a Sharia law state.

So to commence a thread saying Israel doesn't want to recognize a Palestinian state is a joke particularly when Hudson Jones ran from his last thread where he was exposed for  refusing to acknowledge the PA and Hamas are at war with Israel let alone why. His pathetic response in avoiding discussing their true positions was a limp, "they don't have to recognize Israel as being Jewish". That is past pathetic its intellectually dishonest.

"Hudson Jones"  suggests Palestinians and Muslims  must be recognized as a collective states but not Jews. In "Hudson Jones''' world, Israel must recognize a Palestinian state that refuses to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, and  demands Israel cease to exist as a Jewish state and maintains  their war of terror against Israel, ALL Jews, and anyone who supports Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state,  until Israel agrees to become a Sharia law state.

So how many more of these repeat scripts of "Hudson Jones" repeating the same b.s. will be posted under this section? How many times will his script be repeated verbatim?

How many times will he ignore ALL Palestinian Hamas and PA leaders have argued that recognizing a Jewish state would necessitate relinquishing the so-called "right of return"– the option of allowing Palestinians who fled Israel in 1948, and their millions of descendants to resettle in the State of Israel?

Why will Hudson Jones not admit the above? Why when he is asked to acknowledge the above, he won't deny it, he simply runs from it and starts a new thread pretending its not a fact and refusing to respond to it? Why will he not acknowledge it? He can't deny it because he knows its true, but he is not intellectually honest to admit it. Why?

Why does he pull the same stunt and refuse to acknowledge the Hamas and PA charters call for the dismantling of a Jewish state and the only state they will recognize is a Sharia law one? Why does he think if he plays semantics and says Hamas and PA recognize a state in Israel but omits it has to  be a Sharia law state, this fools anyone? Who does his script "fool" or try recruit to his way of thinking at this point?

Why does "Hudson Jones" start such threads with deliberately false titles?

Why does he not acknowledge Arafat told the whole world that all peace talks Arafat carried out were done in bad faith and Israel and the US should have known Arafat would never settle for anything but the return of Israel as a Muslim state and that he was only stalling for time?

Why does "Hudson Jones" refuse to disclose that Mr. Abbas has stood up in his assembly giving a standing ovation and cheering and chanting along with death to Israel chants while at the same time posing as a person Israel should recognize as a good faith peace partner? 

Why does "Hudson Jones" refuse to admit that Mr. Abbas stated that once a Palestinian state is created it will be used to complete the and I quote "liberation of Palestinian territory, pre 1967 Israel as per article 8 of the PA covenant?

Why does "Hudson Jones" refuse to admit that Arafat when meeting with Arab diplomats in Stockholm in 1996 stated and I quote: 

 "We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living on the West Bank and in Jerusalem. All Palestinian Arabs will be welcomed back by us. If the Jews can import all kinds of Ethiopians, Russians, Uzbekians and Ukranians as Jews, then we can import all kinds of Arabs to us. We plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion; Jews will not want to live among us Arabs"

Why does this supposed "Hudson Jones" come on this forum and pose as discussing the Israeli state position but refuses to disclose the above and  the positions of the PA and Hamas as to Israel?

I ask you, would you recognize someone who will not recognize you? Does that make sense? Will you recognize someone as legitimate who says his only  position in regards to you  is to kill you?  

This thread I argue is nothing more than a transparent attempt by Hudson Jones to have avoided responding to the above points I made in a previous thread with him  where he hijacked a thread on Islamophobia to use that thread as an opportunity to piss on Jews for being Israeli which had nothing to do with the topic, not a damned thing. 

Now when exposed on that thread and he ran from me,  he starts another thread repeating the same stale script he won't defend. What he does is state a position but won't defend it in debate. I would argue he can't defend it. He can't. He can't point out one thing I said is false so his m.o. is to run and start new threads or simply call me a personal name. The difference between us is when I call out "Hudson Jones" as being dishonest I state why, he claims I am dishonest but never once has produced a thing from me that shows I have lied about the positions I presented.

This is why I have stated as long as "Hudson Jones" is on this board I will respond and repudiate each and every word he writes.

I do so because I believe the name "Hudson Jones" is a script that is being placed on this forum over and over again to propagate lies and misrepresentations and its past the point given its pattern and repeat content of being anything but in my opinion anti Israel spam.

When will  "Hudson Jones" have the integrity to acknowledge what the actual position of the PA and Hamas is, just once.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Rue

[JamesHackerMP 75]

Any country wanting to prevent Israel from becoming a legal state is 70 years too late. Sure, you can choose not to recognize it, but it's a bit stupid not to do so, ya think?

[marcus 359]

17 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

Any country wanting to prevent Israel from becoming a legal state is 70 years too late. Sure, you can choose not to recognize it, but it's a bit stupid not to do so, ya think?

Israel is here to stay.

The drama queens who are so up in arms about the recognition of a state that already exists have no problem with the prevention of State of Palestine to be formed by Israel. They're also okay with the always increasing illegal settlements and the decades long occupation. 

70 years later:

- So how about a Palestinian State?

- OMG! They won't recognize Israel as a "Jewish" State - Why is that word not being used?!

The foot dragging, the double standards, the hypocrisy and the theatre continues. 

[Rue 997]

14 minutes ago, marcus said:

 

The drama queens who are so up in arms about the recognition of a state that already exists have no problem with the prevention of State of Palestine to be formed by Israel.

Your comment above makes no sense. "have no problem with the prevention of State of Palestine to be formed by Israel"  is nonsensical. But hey thanks for sharing. I mean what would a "Hudson Jones" thread be without a  "Marcus" contribution no matter how nonsensical and disjointed it is.

Got it. Thanks for the translator mangled English and the selective disjointed syntax. Now find me someone at the disinformation desk who will make an effort to finish a sentence in English properly.

I have already volunteered to respond in Arabic and Farsi if you boys can't handle the translator. Just try once, send someone who can finish a sentence that makes sense.

Here is a list of "drama" for you:

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisrael.html

It's called Palestinian terrorism.

 

روز آهسته محمد

بطيئة اليوم محمد

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Rue

[JamesHackerMP 75]

Rue, I don't think your most recent comment really added to the thread. Can you please clarify it a bit?

[GostHacked 426]

On 11/21/2017 at 2:15 PM, Rue said:

Your comment above makes no sense. "have no problem with the prevention of State of Palestine to be formed by Israel"  is nonsensical.

I don't believe we need to recognize any nation as a  religious state (maybe aside from the Vatican)  We can recognize Israel as a nation-state, but that's about as much as they are going to get.  I will recognize it as a state, but not a Jewish state. Mainly because I don't recognize any nation as any  *religious* state.

As long as Israel continually supports building new and expanding current settlements in the occupied territories, they are going to continue to have this problem.

Sure I will add that the terror attacks on BOTH sides need to stop.  Both need to grow up and head back to the table for more talks. But I have a feeling we will still be talking about this in 20 years.

Edited November 22, 2017 by GostHacked

[marcus 359]

It's rare for Israel to show honesty, especially when they address the international community. Everything is theatre. Everything is about trying to manipulate the public into believing something that is not true. For decades, Israel wants to show itself as a victim. A nuclear power, with one of the largest armies in the world, with 25% of it paid by American taxpayers, wants to tell the world that they are victims. An aggressive country who has attacked its neighbours, has at least three times carpet bombed the Gaza strip, killing thousands and has been called out by human rights organizations and the UN for war crimes and possible crimes against humanity. A country that practices apartheid, with the increasing illegal settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and the walls and roads that cut Palestinians from each other. This is the poor little victim that Israel tries to sell itself as.

There are hundreds of examples of this, but one thing I read in Haaretz very recently, just to demonstrate their blatant dishonesty:

Israel Claimed Iran Refused Its Offer for Humanitarian Aid. Red Cross Says Otherwise

Haaretz

So much about Israel is a lie. All manufactured to sway the people. The only time Israel and its mouthpieces are not lying is when they're not talking.

Why doesn't Israel want a Palestinian State to be formed? Simple. Because they want control over the whole thing. 

[Rue 997]

On 11/21/2017 at 3:09 PM, JamesHackerMP said:

Rue, I don't think your most recent comment really added to the thread. Can you please clarify it a bit?

Its clear to the people it was sent to.  So is the fact that the entire thread provides no information, just the same subjective

anti Israel comments.

[marcus 359]

Fifty years ago, the UN Security Council passed Resolution 242. The resolution is used as a framework for implementing the two-state solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

But since its adoption in 1967, Israel has violated the resolution by entrenching its occupation of the Palestinian territories through illegal settlements.

600,000 - 750,000 - Illegal settlers in the occupied Palestinian territories (which includes East Jerusalem)

150 - Settlements

119 - Outposts

42% - Of West Bank land controlled by settlements

86% - Of East Jerusalem for Israeli state and settler use

The majority of settlements have been built either entirely or partially on private Palestinian property

Link

[bush_cheney2004 3,152]

5 hours ago, marcus said:

But since its adoption in 1967, Israel has violated the resolution by entrenching its occupation of the Palestinian territories through illegal settlements.

 

Israel is not required to abide by Resolution 242 in the face of existential threats.  

Occupation of "indigenous" lands are common throughout the world without regard for the UN.

Like Canada and the United States, Israel will consolidate territory and natural resources, including the establishment of "settlements" (e.g. Caledonia, Ontario).

Edited November 24, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[Rue 997]

This threads recycles the same scripts that have been placed on this forum for years. For James Hacker who may not understand my responses and find them cryptic, if he traced back the pattern and content of Hudson Jones-Marcus-Bud threads he would notice this thread is recycled.

The use of the word "occupied" in the Hamas-PA script has been repeated so many times now that it is assumed to be true by the left because of the sheer amount of times its been used incorrectly.

The actual  legal definition of "occupation" comes from the 1907 Hague Convention,  Articles 42 and 43:

            Article 42:

Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercise.

Article 43:

The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country.

 

The articles above state for land to be "occupied: it must be: 

1-under the actual control of a hostile army; and

2- previously the sovereign territory of another state; and

3-  the occupier holds the area with the purpose of returning it to the prior sovereign.

 

In the myth of occupation that the PA-Hamas script script states which was actually originally drafted by ex Nazis who were welcomed to Damascus, Syria and controlled its Ministry of Communications (Propoganda) and then later disseminated by the former Soviet Union and used today by spambots and trendy leftists who have no clue of international law but think they do, these spambots stop after the first sentence in article 42. They pretend they can read one sentence in Article 42 separate from the rest of the wording in 42 and read it as well separate from article 43.

The land on the West Bank was never part of a sovereign territory, ever. That's the first myth the PA and Hamas and for that matter Arab League push.

They also ignore the fundamental precept that to be occupied in addition to having had to have been a sovereign territory, the occupier, Israel, intends to return it to the prior sovereign.

There is no prior sovereign.

The thing though is when you spam and inundate boards with propaganda it depends on people not understanding the laws misrepresented.

For those who have been on this forum long enough they've seen this bullshit myth spewed over and over again.

So these spambots can pretend all they want Palestinian as a sovereign state existed prior r to 1948 and 1967 or like Mr. Abbas completely invent a false history of Palestinian civilization 1,500 years ago but its all horse crap and its why despite all the anti Israel rhetoric no international court can NOT tell Israel to leave the West Bank without Israel agreeing to. The rhetoric passed through UN resolutions or "recommendations" are not and have never been legally binding.

As for the pretending that the PA and Hamas are not terrorist organizations in a current state of war with Israel as these spambots do, its part of the myth and fantasy.

The fact is Marcus, Hudson Jones et al, remain unable and unwilling to state their actual agenda which is to support turning Israel's current Jewish state into a Sharia law Muslim one. Until they do, until they admit their true agenda and continue to ignore and hide from me  with their agenda, they are to me spambots. Their script is far from original.

They do not represent Palestinians or Israelis. They haven't a clue who either are and are quite happy with a conflict between the two because they sure as hell will not discuss the continuous Muslim internal turmoil. They think pissing on Israel detracts from what now is happening across the Muslim world whether it be Malawi, Chad, Niger, Dahomey, Senegal, Somalia, Kenya,  Nigeria, Philippines, Indonesia Malaysia, Libya. Tunisia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Chechnya, China, Lebanon. Bahrain, Oman,Pakistan, Afghankistan,  on and on where Muslim factions kill each oher and non Muslims.

The exercise of pissing on Jews because they have a Jewish nation no longer serves as the unifying glue and vision of the Muslim world to prevent its implosion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[marcus 359]

There is no myth that Israel is occupying and stealing land.

This is part of the denial of the truth and part of the theatre that Israel and its apologists try to sell us. 

Security Council resolution 242, emphasized "the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war,".

There are two interpretations of this matter:

A) The rest of the world's interpretation, including Canada's: 

Occupied Territories and Settlements

Canada does not recognize permanent Israeli control over territories occupied in 1967 (the Golan Heights, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip). The Fourth Geneva Convention applies in the occupied territories and establishes Israel's obligations as an occupying power, in particular with respect to the humane treatment of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. As referred to in UN Security Council Resolutions 446 and 465, Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The settlements also constitute a serious obstacle to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace.

Link

B ) Israel's interpretation which is of course, more b.s. theatre

I'm not sure, I could be wrong.. but maybe Micronesia agrees with Israel's stance?  

The time to debate the laws that applies to the land are over. There is no dispute outside the dispute the mouthpieces try to make.

It's time to acknowledge the violators and to punish them. The punishment has already begun with the BDS movement, which has shaken the violators and their apologists.