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Iran needs some democracy

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Sorry, I got stuck in meetings all morning.  :blink:

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to express my opinion, especially as I understand it varies widely from your own.

First to clarify – Dialamah said that I “hate Islamic dress”.  This is designed to give the impression that I just randomly and with no thought automatically disapprove of all Islamic dress.  This is incorrect.  I very much enjoy and appreciate the clothing styles of many cultures and I have no problem with people wearing their cultural dress.  But we are not talking about that here, and Dialamah knows this.  We are talking about a specific item of apparel, that has a specific purpose, carries with it a specific history and as she has even admitted here – is controversial.  It is controversial for a reason and I don’t believe those reasons should be brushed aside with a casual “It’s my choice”, as if all the reasons that make it controversial in the first place, are nothing.  To admit it is a controversial garment, and then not allow discussion of those controversies, or to quickly dismiss them with accusations of “Islamophobia!!!” is at best, poor debating.  Women and girls all over the world, including in Western countries are being forced into this garment, are dying and being killed because of it.  So yes, I have serious reservations about the legitimacy of this particular garment. 

(Incidentally, this is what makes your question a “loaded question”.  In addition, Dia’s comment is designed to distract from the discussion by creating the false impression that I am prejudiced against anything Islamic so therefore not to be listened to, and your question is designed to force a Yes or No answer to a more complex question, based on Dia’s false allegations of myself, and also designed to distract from the discussion of this particular garment.  But hey, I’ll bite today. :))

Secondly, to clarify – my background is that I was born and raised in a high-control cult.  Long story short, I managed to get myself free of it.  That is no easy task, because it involves more than just getting physically free.  You also must get mentally free.  For me, getting mentally free meant fully and honestly researching my former cult.  I also researched the mind control and thought-stopping techniques involved in brainwashing and how to break free from these processes.  I researched logical fallacies and debating so that I could identify when these were being used in my former cult’s literature.

When I got myself mentally free, I worked for 10 years on a discussion/recovery forum for others who were also trying to get free.  We occasionally had Mormons show up on our board who also needed help, so I ended up researching the shit out of that religion, too.  There aren’t many Mormon or JW or Hutterite or Amish threads here, so…..while it may seem that I only have issues with Islam *here*, I could totally blow a lot of wonky religious beliefs from many religions out of the water as well.  Blowing JW’s out of the water over the blood issue is a particular favourite of mine because this is also a belief that people are literally dying from.  It wasn’t until I lived in a town with a high Muslim population and saw their reaction to the birth of ISIS and saw the issues arising from the religion’s adherents that I said, “WTF is going on in THIS religion??” and started looking into it more.  So my interest is not just in exposing Islam, no religion is safe from me.  Haha!  It would be more accurate if you called me a “Religionophobe”.

Now, to get to your question:

Quote

is it just the islamic dress code or do you have a problem with dress codes of other religions in Canada too?

Unfortunately, my answer is:  It depends.

It depends on a variety of factors.

  • What is the history of the dress?
  • What is its purpose?
  • What is its function?
  • Is the dress code truly a part of the religion, or is it an extreme interpretation of it?
  • Is it enforced for just religious functions?  Or is it enforced at all times?
  • Does it harm or does it benefit the wearer – physically, psychologically, emotionally, socially, etc?
  • If the garment’s purpose is to make a public statement of values, does that public statement agree or disagree with what the prevailing society’s values are? 
  • Does it harm or does it benefit society as a whole?

Of course there are lots of other considerations to take into account when evaluating a religious belief.  And I wouldn’t completely dismiss any particular belief based solely on any ONE of the above criteria, except maybe the harm/benefit factor, and especially if people are dying over it.

So, back to you – find me the religion that is not just quietly practicing, but actively promoting a proven harmful article of clothing, that its adherents are being killed over and dying for, that promotes an extreme interpretation of the basic religion, that promotes social values far out of step with the rest of the modern world – and I will condemn that garment as well.

My research on this garment leads me to believe there is more harm inherent in it, than benefits. So while I completely understand your argument that it is a woman’s choice to wear this or not,  I don’t believe that should be what is of prime importance.

I think because of its many harmful attributes, it should probably treated much the same as seatbelts.  It’s totally your choice to wear or not wear them.  If you choose to not wear them, there are fines.  You also should accept the more serious consequences of choosing not to wear them – you may be seriously injured or killed by your choice.  Same with these garments, a fine if you insist on wearing it.  And you will not be shielded from society’s disapproval (within legal boundaries, of course.)

Now, Doggie!  May I borrow your umbrella to deflect the rotten tomatoes?  :lol:

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Great post, Goddess.

As mentioned, I view the hijab and associated garments as a uniform...saying one is following the Quran literally. 

That's the message it sends to me. 

Iran shows what happens when Islam rules. The irony that Empress Farah did far more to help women in Iran than Islam ever could is apparent.

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27 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

I view the hijab and associated garments as a uniform...saying one is following the Quran literally. 

My view also.

As to the harmful effects of it and the "choice" to wear it, this author, a Muslim woman, sums up my feelings about it:

 

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16 minutes ago, Goddess said:

My view also.

As to the harmful effects of it and the "choice" to wear it, this author, a Muslim woman, sums up my feelings about it:

 

 

I recall the thread. Sounds like we had the same teachers. 

It is helpful to remember that Persia/Iran was ALSO invaded and conquered by Islamic armies during the Early Middle Ages. It wasn't just the West that felt the pointy-tip of Islam. 

In older less politically correct versions of the game Civilization...when you discovered Islam...you built armies of Fanatics for free.

:D

 

Edited by DogOnPorch

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@Goddess

As I should expect by now, you misconstrued my comments and made a ton of assumptions about my motivation.

1.  My intent was to offer support to you because I felt you were being infairly attacked.

2.  My reference to Islamic Dress was specifically intended for the items you dislike, was not intended to "distract" nor imply anything about  how you feel about cultural dress.

3.  My bad, no doubt, for even trying to speak on your behalf, and I appreciate your clarification.

 

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2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

It is helpful to remember that Persia/Iran was ALSO invaded and conquered by invading Islamic armies during the Early Middle Ages. It wasn't just the West that felt the pointy-tip of Islam. 

I haven't had a lot of exposure to the wars of Islam but I did read quite a bit about the life of Mohammed.  It seems that every time he had an issue with his wives, BINGO!  he amazingly received a new revelation from Allah that restricted their actions and vindicated Mohammed.  The more wives and sex slaves he took on, the more problems he had with them as a group and again, BINGO! amazingly new reveleations.  Every.  Time.  It would have been comical if it wasn't so sad and disheartening.

6 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

In older less politically correct versions of the game Civilization...when you discovered Islam...you built armies of Fanatics for free.

That's funny!  :lol:

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2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

@Goddess

As I should expect by now, you misconstrued my comments and made a ton of assumptions about my motivation.

1.  My intent was to offer support to you because I felt you were being infairly attacked.

2.  My reference to Islamic Dress was specifically intended for the items you dislike, was not intended to "distract" nor imply anything about  how you feel about cultural dress.

3.  My bad, no doubt, for even trying to speak on your behalf, and I appreciate your clarification.

 

My apologies for misconstruing your comments.  I'm used to being attacked on here, so I may be a bit more paranoid then I need to be at times.

Thank you.  

Truce?  :)

Perhaps we both need one of these more often:

snickers.jpg

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9 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I haven't had a lot of exposure to the wars of Islam but I did read quite a bit about the life of Mohammed.  It seems that every time he had an issue with his wives, BINGO!  he amazingly received a new revelation from Allah that restricted their actions and vindicated Mohammed.  The more wives and sex slaves he took on, the more problems he had with them as a group and again, BINGO! amazingly new reveleations.  Every.  Time.  It would have been comical if it wasn't so sad and disheartening.

That's funny!  :lol:

 

Islam militarily is about fighting the Unbeliever until religion...all of it...is for Allah. Just as the Quran says. Muhammad was personally involved in battles spreading Islam throughout the Arabian peninsula. His Companions continued the invasion after his death. It was at Tours where Charles Martel turned back the invasion into the West during the early expansion...100 years post Big-Mo's death. Lightning warfare for the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Persia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests

Edited by DogOnPorch
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3 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

So bring back the Shah...remove the Mullahs.

It is up to Iranian people to decide on the form of their future government not you or me or anyone else.

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13 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

It is up to Iranian people to decide on the form of their future government not you or me or anyone else.

Does Dog have some kind of influence over the rulership in Iran that we don't know about?

Or could it be that he's just giving his ideas on who would best rule in Iran on a discussion board for discussing such things, much like we all give our opinions on various foreign governments?

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1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Does Dog have some kind of influence over the rulership in Iran that we don't know about?

Or could it be that he's just giving his ideas on who would best rule in Iran on a discussion board for discussing such things, much like we all give our opinions on various foreign governments?

 

During WW2, Iran/Persia was invaded by the USSR and the UK in 1941. This due to the Shah's father being pro-German and Operation Barbarossa getting underway. This led to Iran becoming the famous Persian Corridor for Lend-Lease and supplies to the USSR. A critical move during the War. However, at the end of the war, the Russians didn't want to leave...with the support of certain elements inside Iran. This led to the 1946 UN Iran Crisis...which offhandedly led to the 1953 Coup if we want to get into the details.

Everybody gets involved in Iran...and if we look at the photos of the actual Coup participants...even Iranians get involved...because they pulled the Coup...we often forget. Sure, with CIA assistance...and with KGB assistance pouring in from the other side.

:lol:

Edited by DogOnPorch

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1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

It is up to Iranian people to decide on the form of their future government not you or me or anyone else.

 

It was up to the German people in the 1930s, as well. And look where that got us.

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1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Does Dog have some kind of influence over the rulership in Iran that we don't know about?

Or could it be that he's just giving his ideas on who would best rule in Iran on a discussion board for discussing such things, much like we all give our opinions on various foreign governments?

You seem to have a biased different interpretations of what Dog says always!!!!. Look up his post before commenting. He has quoted MY post and wih his post ordering or advising me to remove mullahs and bring back the Shah like I have a say in this matter or I am some kind of a magician or bewitched to twitch my nose and make things the way he or I want!!!!!!.

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1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

You seem to have a biased different interpretations of what Dog says always!!!!. 

Because she understands English 100%.

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5 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

He has quoted MY post and wih his post ordering or advising me to remove mullahs and bring back the Shah like I have a say in this matter or I am some kind of a magician or bewitched to twitch my nose and make things the way he or I want!!!!!!.

 

So how do you "support" the women of Iran in this time of need?

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27 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

During WW2, Iran/Persia was invaded by the USSR and the UK in 1941. This due to the Shah's father being pro-German and Operation Barbarossa getting underway. This led to Iran becoming the famous Persian Corridor for Lend-Lease and supplies to the USSR. A critical move during the War. However, at the end of the war, the Russians didn't want to leave...with the support of certain elements inside Iran. This led to the 1946 UN Iran Crisis...which offhandedly led to the 1953 Coup if we want to get into the details.

They are both Aryan nations. That is why.

The Russians have the habit of not leaving when they enter. Look at entire Eastern Europe they occuppied and refused to leave for almost half a century.

Edited by CITIZEN_2015

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Just now, CITIZEN_2015 said:

They are both Aryan nations. That is why.upied and refuse to leave.

The Russians have the habit of not leaving when they enter. Look at entire Eastern Europe they occuppied and refused to leave for almost half a century.

 

Russia is a lot of things; Aryan isn't one.

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27 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

So how do you "support" the women of Iran in this time of need?

By letting the world know about their struggle and need for support and sharing the pictures/articles on social media (This is how the first female who pioneered this movement who was arrested was released after a month as thousands of social media users shared her pictures asking where is she?). Encourage writing to MPs......

Edited by CITIZEN_2015

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3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Russia is a lot of things; Aryan isn't one.

Now what is wrong with your English?. The comment I quoted was about Shah's father supporting Germany in WWII. It was clear to any English speaking that I meant to say Iranians and Germans are both Aryans not Russians!!!! What is wrong with you?

Edited by CITIZEN_2015

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1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

By letting the world know about their struggle and need for support and sharing the pictures/articles on social media. Encourage writing to MPs......

 

Perhaps Trudeau can give them a good tongue wagging and then cry for the camera...

1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Now what is wrong with your English?. The comment I quoted was about Shah's father supporting Germany in WWII. It was clear to any English speaking that I meant to say Iranians and Germans are both Aryans!!!! What is wrong with you?

 

You mentioned Russia in the second sentence.

The Shah's father went so far as to re-name Persia Iran and sport Hitler's mustache...when not entertaining SS men.  

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1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Indeed they are a lot of things, at last we agreed on something!!!!! Down with Russia.

 

An old joke...what's a seven letter word for something you find in Russia??

T

R

O

U

B

L

E

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3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

You mentioned Russia in the second sentence.

The Shah's father went so far as to re-name Persia Iran and sport Hitler's mustache...when not entertaining SS men.  

Well the second part was a response to second part of your quoted post.

Edited by CITIZEN_2015

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Just now, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Well the second part was a response to second part.

:lol:

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More on the acts of Bravery.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5334343/Iranian-women-chador-supports-anti-hijab-protests.html

Being myself a feminist (of male gendre) in the West it makes me thrilled to see females fighting for their rightful rights anywhere in the world so bravely. Long live female struggles all over the world, strongest being in Iran. Saudis and other women should learn and rise up too.

Edited by CITIZEN_2015

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