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Separation ...... what if ?


Nefarious Banana

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Isn't it so that although in different countries cities such as Vancouver and Seattle have a lot more in common with each other than either of them with cities in the east of their respective countries?

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On 1/21/2018 at 1:56 PM, taxme said:

You sure make it appear as though you hate white people and Christianity alright. Am I on the right track here? 

That's very interesting. There was absolutely nothing "anti white" in my post at all. As for Christianity, I admit, I am not a fan. I think most Christians are decent people, but the church as an institution basically appears to be some sort of child rape cult. And Its not just Christianity either. I don't care for Islam, or Judaism either. The three religions associated with that despicable maggot Abraham.

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On 3/4/2018 at 9:27 AM, -TSS- said:

Isn't it so that although in different countries cities such as Vancouver and Seattle have a lot more in common with each other than either of them with cities in the east of their respective countries?

When I moved to Vancouver from Montreal several decades ago I did feel like I was actually living in an American state after awhile. Vancouver does have a lot more in common with Seattle than with Toronto or Montreal. 

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You can't ignore the imperatives of geography. The New York-Chicago- Toronto-Montreal axis is the engine of North America's economy for a reason. Economic power settles in an area based on such things as water transportation, access to markets and access to resources. Western separation would not change the economic picture of North America. 

Politically, you will have socialists as the natural governing party, with the power centred in Vancouver. How is that different than being ruled by Toronto? As for immigration, the asian demographic would become a larger proportion of the population with much more political power. For anyone with racist views, I doubt that is a prospect they would relish.

Separation brings with it an added security problem. There will be people who violently object to separation. I studied the OAS insurgency in Algeria. Due to the west's geography, it is extremely vulnerable to disruption sufficient to cripple the economy. Quebec's security would be even more perilous in the event of their separation. 

In the event of separation, there will be a significant drop in population. People do not like instability and unemployment.

Finally, there appears to be an assumption that oil production would run the economy, but for how long. We are going to run out of oil, or the rest of the world will transition away from it.

Edited by Queenmandy85
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2 hours ago, eyeball said:

I just wish Ottawa managed Alberta's oil the way it manages "BC's" fish.  That would definitely make me smile.

It is a matter of jurisdiction

  • the federal government is responsible for all marine species with the exception of anadromous and catadromous species in inland waters in some regions
  • provincial and territorial governments are responsible for freshwater species, with the exception of salmon in British Columbia.
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1 hour ago, ?Impact said:

It is a matter of jurisdiction

So, change it.  

Quote

the federal government is responsible for all marine species with the exception of anadromous and catadromous species in inland waters in some region.

I know and they really really suck at it. 

Quote

 

provincial and territorial governments are responsible for freshwater species, with the exception of salmon in British Columbia.

 

I don't care about other provincial and territorial government's responsibilities. BC's government should mostly be responsible for facilitating regional area-based management boards that co-manage with senior governments from the bottom up. 

Seriously though all I really want to separate from is Ottawa and more pointedly the lying scheming bastards that run our country from there.  Failing that I'd settle for a government monitoring and souveillance regime that would make Orwell himself blush.  That goes for Victoria too.

We can use the same type of cameras DFO put on our boats.

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4 hours ago, eyeball said:

I just wish Ottawa managed Alberta's oil the way it manages "BC's" fish.  That would definitely make me smile.

The last time they did that was with Pierre Trudeau and his National Energy Program which provided cheap gas for eastern Canada at the expense of Alberta and caused lots of people to lose their jobs and homes in Alberta.  If they tried that again, there would probably be a referendum in Alberta to separate.  People in Alberta are much more alert and won't take any BS from Ottawa.  Trudeau is trying to sneak in a kind of national energy program on Alberta's oil with his carbon pricing scheme.

Edited by blackbird
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On ‎2018‎-‎02‎-‎16 at 7:12 PM, August1991 said:

PIK, well said.

=========

Without Québec and Alberta, what would "Canada" be?

Ontario would be Michigan and Toronto would be Detroit.

Canada can't even get a pipeline built to the east coast to ship Alberta's oil and is having trouble getting the KM pipeline built to the Pacific coast.  All this doesn't help national unity.  Trudeau seems impotent to do anything about it.  He's busy being all things to all people, trying to appease the environmental movement, Quebec, and the natives  and leftists who oppose resource development.

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On 1/15/2018 at 12:24 AM, Nefarious Banana said:

Separation ..... always on the table for Canadians.

Quebec threatening separation .... ad infinitum. The Federal Government ass kissing ad infinitum.  A dog chasing its tail .....

What if ..... the four western provinces, Yukon and the old NWT separated to become a vibrant 'cancer free' country of its own. No more transfer payments pouring into the third world Maritime Provinces, same for that 'have-not' cancer that is Quebec ...... and the fact is that, Ontario needs the West more than we need them.  

With two more ice free months due to global warming, shipping to Europe via Churchill would be feasible .... and of course, the western shipping to Asia via Vancouver/Prince Rupert.

Let Ontario decide which direction to align with .... east or west.  No special status. All have an equal say/seats in the new Western govt.  Manufacturing and the needed resources are all here.

Next time the 'spoiled child' of Canada threatens separation ..... show them the door.  You can bet that the northern FN groups, and other ceded/gifted lands won't be included in the 'separated Quebec' .... Quebec will be a strip of real estate along the St Lawrence ..... help the spoiled little kid with the pissy pants leave. The rest of us will be better off for it.

Am really tired of Ontario and Quebec calling the shots in this country.

Otherwise ..... How are ya' ..... ?

Is this like a fantasy?

If the four western provinces separate, it would basically be dominated by the NDP who control the government of Alberta and BC, but mainly by the far left in BC.  You'd never garner enough votes for a conservative government again because the swing districts are mostly in the maritimes, suburbs of Toronto and parts of Quebec.  Alberta cannot even form a union with BC because BC's is radically liberal and they are the opposite.  It would be like if California was adjoined to Texas or New York state adjoined to Georgia, and the voters in Georgia were going to secede because they were tired of left wing liberals.  The territories tend to be liberal as well.

 

Ontario doesn't need the West, it has the strongest, largest, biggest economy in the country and its money built the west, when the west was just a poor farming area.  If the West separates, we want all the tax money we put into developing your oil sector when you had none back, because you guys were too poor to pay for it.

 

Why would Ontario with several times the population of Alberta agree to have equal seats to it.  What Ontario would do is invade you and raid your resources like we did to the indians.  Don't like it, go back to your homeland.

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18 hours ago, blackbird said:

The last time they did that was with Pierre Trudeau and his National Energy Program which provided cheap gas for eastern Canada at the expense of Alberta and caused lots of people to lose their jobs and homes in Alberta.

Except it was the other way around. For years, Ontario was forced to pay premium prices above world prices to Alberta. You could drive across the border into Quebec where the gas was refined in Montreal from an oil pipeline to the coast of Maine and pay significantly less. Alberta prefers to sell their heavily discounted oil to Americans rather than have Ontario pay world prices for their gas, even though they have everything to thank Ontario for in building their industry. Alberta doesn't see eastern Canada as a partner in ensuring an energy self sufficient Canada, but rather a wasteland they can pump their dirty sludge through to other markets.

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That dirty sludge pays a lot of taxes which help all Canadians.  There are a huge amount of people from Ontario that work in the Alberta oil patch and are happy to do so.  Your statement of pumping dirty sludge through to other markets and that they don't care is incompetent. 

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12 minutes ago, Dale said:

That dirty sludge pays a lot of taxes which help all Canadians.  There are a huge amount of people from Ontario that work in the Alberta oil patch and are happy to do so.  Your statement of pumping dirty sludge through to other markets and that they don't care is incompetent. 

My statement about pumping dirty sludge was in response to the pathetic slagging of eastern Canadians.

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On 3/9/2018 at 6:36 AM, H10 said:

....

Ontario doesn't need the West, it has the strongest, largest, biggest economy in the country and its money built the west, when the west was just a poor farming area.  If the West separates, we want all the tax money we put into developing your oil sector when you had none back, because you guys were too poor to pay for it.

....

Why would Ontario with several times the population of Alberta agree to have equal seats to it.  What Ontario would do is invade you and raid your resources like we did to the indians.  Don't like it, go back to your homeland.

Homeland?

indians?

=====

Without Alberta/Québec, Ontario is Michigan and Toronto is another Detroit.

And without the rest of us (immigrants), natives are poor. When well organised, we all make ourselves richer.

The world does not lack children; it lacks educated children.

Edited by August1991
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21 minutes ago, August1991 said:

1. Without Alberta/Québec, Ontario is Michigan and Toronto is another Detroit.

2. And without the rest of us (immigrants), natives are poor. When well organised, we all make ourselves richer.

1. Toronto's Britishness kept it from becoming Detroit

2. Your situation is so hypothetical as to be meaningless

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Toronto's Britishness kept it from becoming Detroit

2. Your situation is so hypothetical as to be meaningless

1. If Quebec had voted "yes" in 1980 or 1995, Ontario would be Michigan - and Toronto would be another Detroit. Alberta/Quebec would be other places. 

2. Immigrants made natives rich. You may "own" a gold mine on the Moon but unless you have a way to bring the gold to Earth, you're not rich.

=====

Ontario, more than any other jurisdiction in Canada, is dependent on "Canada". Newfoundland has existed for centuries before 1867. Quebec, well before 1763.

Ontario is a creation of the BNA Act. Alberta, less so.

======================

Michael, another point: there were in fact two 1763 treaties: one signed in Fontainebleau (the Treaty of Paris, a misnomer) and the other in Hubertusberg.

I have seen Fontainebleau but never walked through it. I walked through Hubertusberg, nowadays a DDR relic in Saxony; it's a delight.

 

Edited by August1991
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3 hours ago, August1991 said:

1. If Quebec had voted "yes" in 1980 or 1995, Ontario would be Michigan - and Toronto would be another Detroit. Alberta/Quebec would be other places. 

2. Immigrants made natives rich. You may "own" a gold mine on the Moon but unless you have a way to bring the gold to Earth, you're not rich.

=====

3. Ontario, more than any other jurisdiction in Canada, is dependent on "Canada". Newfoundland has existed for centuries before 1867. Quebec, well before 1763.

4. Ontario is a creation of the BNA Act. Alberta, less so.

======================

5. Michael, another point: there were in fact two 1763 treaties: one signed in Fontainebleau (the Treaty of Paris, a misnomer) and the other in Hubertusberg.

6. I have seen Fontainebleau but never walked through it. I walked through Hubertusberg, nowadays a DDR relic in Saxony; it's a delight.

 

1. By 1980 Detroit was an empty slum.  If Montreal had kept its corporate headquarters, it would be richer but Toronto would be the same thanks to its conciliatory and civilized government of the day, especially Bill Davis.

2. What is the value of gold to someone who is terminally ill ?  Your analogy isn't any clearer than before.

I'm not sure the relevance of 3, 4, 5, 6 but I will say that I have been to Chartres, Versailles, and walked through them.  I live a few minutes' walk from Casa Loma but have never walked through it.  

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On 3/14/2018 at 2:45 AM, August1991 said:

Homeland?

indians?

=====

Without Alberta/Québec, Ontario is Michigan and Toronto is another Detroit.

And without the rest of us (immigrants), natives are poor. When well organised, we all make ourselves richer.

The world does not lack children; it lacks educated children.

I think you have your analogy reversed.  toronto is the economic center of the country and so is Ontario, 60% of the nations GDP occurs in this region. If Ontario leaves, the rest of you are done.

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32 minutes ago, H10 said:

 Ontario, 60% of the nations GDP occurs in this region. If Ontario leaves, the rest of you are done.

I’m guessing math isn’t your strong suit? It’s more like 39%. Ontario is right on par with the GDP Per capita so I don’t think your argument holds much water

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_gross_domestic_product

 

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On 3/15/2018 at 9:01 AM, Accountability Now said:

I’m guessing math isn’t your strong suit? It’s more like 39%. Ontario is right on par with the GDP Per capita so I don’t think your argument holds much water

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_gross_domestic_product

 

Ontario is 38% of the population but produces 41% of the economy

http://www.pearsoned.ca/school/secondary/atlas/instructor/ON_Answers.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Canada#Provinces_and_territories

And the leader in attracting FDI in north America.

"Ontario was the leading state/province for attracting foreign direct investment (FDI) in North America in 2013, with $7.23bn. This accounted for more than one-tenth of all FDI in North America. It was also the 4th biggest state for outward FDI, recording $7.74bn"

 

So we are building this nation.  We should separate because I am sick and tired of paying for welfare queens in Alberta and Quebec.

 

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Lets face it. We would be a lesser country if any one of the provinces separated. We are greater than the sum of our parts. Beyond the economy, there is culture.

As for the similarity between Vancouver and Seattle, the biggest difference is Seattle is full of Americans. They are a wonderful people but Canadians and Americans are culturally different. Neither is better than the other, just different.

Edited by Queenmandy85
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