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California Judge Rules In Favor Of Christian


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1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Capital punishment is taught in the Bible:   "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." Genesis 9:6

"

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

Romans ch13:1-4

These verses show the government has the authority to deal with law breakers.   The matter of killing people outside of lawful authority which is in accordance with the Bible is stated in Exodus   "thou shalt not kill"   Exodus 20:13

I have it on good authority that the OT was abrogated by the coming of Christ and no longer applies.   Or is this another example of 'picking and choosing' what to believe?   Something that every faithful person on the planet does, regardless of faith.

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This is why you don't own a bake shop.  The point of a bake shop is not to show Muslims your glorious personal beliefs but to sell baked goods.

May a gay person through a cream pie in your face. This kind of crap does not belong in court or in a rational world. If someone is that upset about gay people they won't bake them a cake that is path

Who would've thought this would happen?  In California to boot!  Finally.......reason seems to be coming back.   This must be a precedent!   https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/the

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45 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Where does the bible mention "Due Process"?    

I never said you did; I only said that it happens and such children are around 8 times more likely to commit suicide than straight youth.

If the Christian faith teaches that LGBTQ people are unacceptable to God and to the Church, would that not be seen as rejection by kids?   If rejection by parents and community results in suicide, does it matter how respectful you are when you tell someone that they are unacceptable?

Now I appreciate that you believe it's important to treat people with respect.   But if your child's school were supporting a straight-gay alliance, or was providing information on LGBTQ, would you object to that or would you accept it as a way to offer respect to LGBTQ children, to help such kids to feel accepted and to reduce suicide?  I realize that you do not speak for all Christians, but I don't want to assume wrong things about you personally.

 

Of course the Bible probably doesn't mention the actual words "due process".   The principle of fairness is taught in the Bible.  The justice system must be fair.

Again you are mixing the people with the sin.  The people should be respected but Christians cannot condone the sin.  The Bible says God is love.  He loves the people but not the sins we commit.  You have to distinguish between people and what they do.  

I don't agree with schools teaching on LGBTQ because they are basically teaching it is normal.  So-called gay-straight alliances are another thing that projects it as normal and acceptable and so I could not support it. .

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23 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I have it on good authority that the OT was abrogated by the coming of Christ and no longer applies.   Or is this another example of 'picking and choosing' what to believe?   Something that every faithful person on the planet does, regardless of faith.

You are somewhat correct.  Part of the O.T. were instructions to the nation of Israel at that time and do not apply to Christians today.  There are lessons that are applicable from parts of the O.T.  and a much other teaching that would be useful.  We don't apply the laws and ordinances in the O.T. that were only meant for Israel 3000 years ago.  They had a special covenant with God and received special instructions from God which only applied to them.

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8 hours ago, blackbird said:

So you in fact would support anybody who wishes to end their life, even if it someone who wants to do it by jumping off a bridge?  I thought we discussed this and you denied it.

Now you're saying again that you support anyone having the choice to end their life.  

The reason the large American disabled rights advocacy association opposes doctor-assisted suicide is very simple.  They believe it would put disabled people at risk.  What you don't understand is there are many people who do not think clearly at certain times in their life and may be persuaded to end their life in a weaker moment.   Many young people would fall into this category.  People go through distressing times in their life, for a number of reasons.  Could be their girlfriend or boyfriend broke up with them.  Then they feel there is no point in living.  You would give these people the so-called freedom of choice to end their life.  Same with old people who have illness or dementia.  They may not be thinking straight.  Then there might be old people who feel they are a burden on their family.  Or disable people who feel they are a burden to society and want to not be a burden (as they see it).  This is one reason the disabled association in the U.S. opposes it.   Lots of reasons why someone might be persuaded at certain times to choose to end their life if given the opportunity, but at other times or in different or happier circumstances, may abhor the idea.in

You didn't read what I said.  Not properly, anyway.  Not wanting someone to do something does not equate to denying them the right to do it.  I would afford anyone the right to end their lives for whatever reason they want, but I would not deny anyone else the right to try and talk them out of it. 

I don't care who is against doctor assisted suicide.  I'm sure there are a lot of people.  I happen to be pro choice.

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37 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I don't agree with schools teaching on LGBTQ because they are basically teaching it is normal.  So-called gay-straight alliances are another thing that projects it as normal and acceptable and so I could not support it. .

Having LGBTQ programs in the schools helps to prevent suicides, bullying and homelessness among the teens.  Christianity is supposed to be about promoting family values

but when you have parents ostrasizing children because of their sexuality and making them feel worthless and sinners seems the opposite of promoting family values. 

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2 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Having LGBTQ programs in the schools helps to prevent suicides, bullying and homelessness among the teens.  Christianity is supposed to be about promoting family values

but when you have parents ostrasizing children because of their sexuality and making them feel worthless and sinners seems the opposite of promoting family values. 

You figure he's be all over that if it helped prevent suicides.  He's dead set against them!

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8 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Having LGBTQ programs in the schools helps to prevent suicides, bullying and homelessness among the teens.  Christianity is supposed to be about promoting family values

but when you have parents ostrasizing children because of their sexuality and making them feel worthless and sinners seems the opposite of promoting family values. 

I don't think parents ostrasize their own children.  Sounds like a fake claim.  Christians should not promote LGBT;  LGBT is not family values.  It is opposed to normal families.   You claim LGBT programs prevent suicides but I can't comment on that claim because I know nothing about it.  But LGBT programs would be teaching children that LGBT is normal and therefore be promoting it. 

All I can is what I said, that the Bible opposes LGBT and Christians should follow the Bible.  If you're not a Bible believer, you won't understand or agree.  So we will have to leave it there.

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19 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

You figure he's be all over that if it helped prevent suicides.  He's dead set against them!

What do you expect when you have people on the one hand saying that LGBT is normal and on the other hand those who oppose it.  There is going to be a conflict.  Of course you think those who oppose it should cave in to LGBT and agree with it.  Since it is abnormal, it's the pro LGBT crowd who are causing the problem and contributing to the anxiety.  Nothing will make it "normal".  You want Christians to support something abnormal.

Edited by blackbird
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5 hours ago, dialamah said:

If God will do what He wants with you, why the "OR?"    If you've got no choice -  if God directs everything - what's the punishment for?

1.  People who "choose" not to believe in God are punished, usually with the threat of eternal punishment. 

That is not really "free will" anymore than it is when someone holds a gun to your head and says "Tell me what I want to hear or I will kill you."

2.  If God has a plan for you, then that is what will happen.  Calling that free will is like saying a puppet has free will.

Ergo: no free will.

 

You're given a choice:  Either you choose life, or death.   Death is the  consequence of rejecting God! 

 

Practically everything in life comes with  choices.  You can choose whether you want to eat or not, sleep or not, have sex or not.  And every choice practically has a consequence!

Heck, positive discipline involves giving your child a choice too, like....."if you want to watch cartoons, you have to clean up your toys."  "Put away your toys and then you can watch cartoons."

 

 

As an analogy, are you saying we don't have free will in our society?  Can't you make any choice as to what you'll have for supper tonight, or if you want to go to the theatre instead of watching tv?

In our society, if you choose to rape or murder, or do any crime.......you'll face the consequence.  Death might even be the punishment if you're in certain states in the USA.    Because you're punished if you break the law - to you, that means we don't have free will! :lol:

 

We have free will, Diahlamah - but not in everything.

 

If we don't have free will, we'll just all believe in God. 

You won't have any choice....not even to contemplate atheism!  There wouldn't be any atheism at all.  That term wouldn't exist....because we'll all be created believers!  That's what it'll be like if we have no free will!

 

Edited by betsy
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7 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

You're given a choice:  Either you choose life, or death.   Death is the  consequence of rejecting God! 

 

Practically everything in life comes with  choices.  You can choose whether you want to eat or not, sleep or not, have sex or not.  And every choice practically has a consequence!

Heck, positive discipline involves giving your child a choice too, like....."if you want to watch cartoons, you have to clean up your toys."  "Put away your toys and then you can watch cartoons."

 

 

As an analogy, are you saying we don't have free will in our society?  Can't you make any choice as to what you'll have for supper tonight, or if you want to go to the theatre instead of watching tv?

In our society, if you choose to rape or murder, or do any crime.......you'll face the consequence.  Death might even be the punishment if you're in certain states in the USA.    Because you're punished if you break the law - to you, that means we don't have free will! :lol:

 

We have free will, Diahlamah - but not in everything.

 

Explain to me again how "Do what I say or DIE" is the same as 'free will' and an actual choice?   When Christians are presented that choice by Islamists, do you stand by those Christians who CHOSE to die, or do you stand by those Christians who chose to LIVE?

 

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6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Explain to me again how "Do what I say or DIE" is the same as 'free will' and an actual choice?   When Christians are presented that choice by Islamists, do you stand by those Christians who CHOSE to die, or do you stand by those Christians who chose to LIVE?

 

Read my post again.....I added.

 

God gave a choice.  Live, or die.   

Just because you don't like the consequence doesn't mean you're not given a choice.

 

Here's another choice to make:  which do you prefer.......worldly life on earth, or eternal life after death?

Edited by betsy
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40 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Having LGBTQ programs in the schools helps to prevent suicides, bullying and homelessness among the teens.  Christianity is supposed to be about promoting family values

but when you have parents ostrasizing children because of their sexuality and making them feel worthless and sinners seems the opposite of promoting family values. 

How do we know that? 

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15 minutes ago, dialamah said:

   When Christians are presented that choice by Islamists, do you stand by those Christians who CHOSE to die, or do you stand by those Christians who chose to LIVE?

 

 

What's that got to do with this?   I can't judge Christians who'd been overcome by fear -  fear is a human emotion.

Out of fear, didn't Peter deny Christ 3 times?  Did Jesus hold that against him?

We'll all face God and give our account.  How exactly Christians will be judged, only God knows.

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1 hour ago, blackbird said:

I don't agree with schools teaching on LGBTQ because they are basically teaching it is normal.  So-called gay-straight alliances are another thing that projects it as normal and acceptable and so I could not support it. .

So you support a doctrine that encourages non-acceptance of LGBTQ in schools and in society.   People who do not feel accepted by their peers or within their society are much more likely to self-harm, to attempt suicide and to succeed at suicide.   If all life is valuable, according to God, then should not programs that save lives be supported by Christians?   Or are only some lives valuable to God? 

But, really - I know the answer; the only life that is valuable to God is the one that worships and obeys him.   I know you aren't responsible for how  people other than yourself treat LGBTQ people, and that you are a well-meaning and no doubt very good Christian.   Still, it is a doctrine that you believe and that you support that ultimately creates such despair among young people that they will die by their own hand.    

https://egale.ca/backgrounder-lgbtq-youth-suicide/

 

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1 minute ago, betsy said:

 

What's that got to do with this?   I can't judge Christians who'd been overcome by fear - to fear is a human emotion.

Out of fear, didn't Peter deny Christ 3 times?  Did Jesus hold that against him?

We'll all face God and give our account.  How exactly Christians will be judged, only God knows.

I asked you if a choice of do it or die is a real choice.   I see you don't want to answer.  Fair enough.  :)

 

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13 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

How do we know that? 

Read all about it:  

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3935661/

Quote

Sexual orientation disparities in suicidal thoughts were nearly eliminated in states and cities with the most protective school climates.

 

http://www.sprc.org/sites/default/files/migrate/library/SPRC_LGBT_Youth.pdf

Quote

Three venues for providing services to youth can make vital differences in the lives of LGBT youth—schools, mental health and social services, and health care services – by increasing safety and inclusion. This is accomplished not only by having knowledgeable and culturally effective staff, but by having an environment – including the setting, polices, and board – that supports safety and inclusion comprehensively.

Etc., just do a bit of googling.

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2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

So you support a doctrine that encourages non-acceptance of LGBTQ in schools and in society.   People who do not feel accepted by their peers or within their society are much more likely to self-harm, to attempt suicide and to succeed at suicide.   If all life is valuable, according to God, then should not programs that save lives be supported by Christians?   Or are only some lives valuable to God? 

But, really - I know the answer; the only life that is valuable to God is the one that worships and obeys him.   I know you aren't responsible for how  people other than yourself treat LGBTQ people, and that you are a well-meaning and no doubt very good Christian.   Still, it is a doctrine that you believe and that you support that ultimately creates such despair among young people that they will die by their own hand.    

https://egale.ca/backgrounder-lgbtq-youth-suicide/

 

No, I'm not a "good Christian",  far from it.  

No I never promoted non-acceptance of LGBT people; but can't agree with the practice.  So they probably would not want anything to do with me or bible believers.  They would probably be the ones that would not accept bible believers, not the other way around.

All I can tell you is the Bible makes it clear.  You seem to be saying I should obey men rather than God. 

I would say counseling is the best solution for people caught up in that.  The problem is finding the right counselor.  The answer is Christian counseling and the King James Bible but probably not many willing to listen to that nowadays.

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A wonderful essay by Dan Kaser that I hope people will read:  'What are Christians to do about those pesky gay children'.

He addresses a conversation that Franklin Graham and James Dobson had on a radio program about how they believe Christians and the church should respond to LGBT people and specifically to gay children.

Here are some excerpts:

Quote

 The inaccurate statements they made are the types of inaccuracies that have led well-meaning Christian parents to throw their gay children out of their home, that have led gay children to abandon their faith, and that have even led LGBTQ children to take their own lives. How big is the problem? On Christian forums that provide emotional support for gay teens and young adults that are considering “coming out” to their families, it is standard practice to advise these young people to have alternate living arrangements in place prior to “coming out.” Why? Because the experience of being rejected by their family and forced from their home is so commonplace. Because of these kinds of consequences, inaccuracies of the kind held forth by Graham and Dobson must not be left unchallenged, especially when the persons espousing such fallacies are persons of tremendous influence. The costs are simply too high.

Franklin Graham: “We have allowed the Enemy to come into our churches. I was talking to some Christians and they were talking about how they invited these gay children to come into their home and to come into the church and that they were wanting to influence them. And I thought to myself, they’re not going to influence those kids; those kids are going to influence those parent’s children. What happens is we think we can fight by smiling and being real nice and loving. We have to understand who the Enemy is and what he wants to do. He wants to devour our homes. He wants to devour this nation and we have to be so careful who we let our kids hang out with. We have to be so careful who we let into the churches.”

A moment later, after saying that gay people could go to heaven if they repented of their sins and accepted Christ, Graham said: “You cannot stay gay and continue to call yourself a Christian. You can’t do it.”

It appears that Graham thinks that being gay is a choice, since he suggests people can just stop being gay. So what does the Bible have to say about whether or not being gay is a choice?

Nothing. We can have great and lengthy theological debates about what the Bible says about sexual relationships as it relates to being gay, but there can be no debate about the origins of sexual orientation because the Bible never speaks to the subject. It only speaks to our behavior.

Make no mistake: People will die as a result of their remarks. Parents will hear these errant teachings, believe them, and be influenced to reject gay children they otherwise might have helped—sometimes even their own. As a result of that, some of those gay children will take their own lives. Gay children are five times more likely to attempt suicidethan straight children. Highly rejected gay children have been found to be eight times more likely to attempt suicide. Can you think of a higher rejection than being put out of your home by your Christian parents or put out of your church—as a gay or transgender child—simply for an orientation you didn’t ask for? Don’t let someone created in the image of God, loved by God, and pursued by God fall through the cracks because of errant information, regardless of the source. Instead, reach out. And while you’re at it, pray for Graham and Dobson—that they will experience the love of Christ themselves so that they grow more willing to extend that love to the “least of these.”

 

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8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

No, I'm not a "good Christian",  far from it.  

No I never promoted non-acceptance of LGBT people; but can't agree with the practice.   

But you said you oppose school programs designed to keep LGBTQ people from committing suicide, here:  

I don't agree with schools teaching on LGBTQ because they are basically teaching it is normal.  So-called gay-straight alliances are another thing that projects it as normal and acceptable and so I could not support it. .

Quote

I would say counseling is the best solution for people caught up in that.  The problem is finding the right counselor.  The answer is Christian counseling and the King James Bible but probably not many willing to listen to that nowadays.

Yes, counselling would help.  Acceptance would help even more.

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55 minutes ago, blackbird said:

What do you expect when you have people on the one hand saying that LGBT is normal and on the other hand those who oppose it.  There is going to be a conflict.  Of course you think those who oppose it should cave in to LGBT and agree with it.  Since it is abnormal, it's the pro LGBT crowd who are causing the problem and contributing to the anxiety.  Nothing will make it "normal".  You want Christians to support something abnormal.

It's only abnormal in the same way left handedness is.  You would want to ban gallocks, would you?

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36 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I've googled a fair bit actually.  I can't find anything except theory that say's programs in schools prevents anything at all.  I can see that people claim "attempted suicide" is down, but that's still just opinion.  I'm willing to listen to facts, just haven't seen any.  What I did find interesting is that gay males commit suicide at a 50% rate more than straight males.  Considering the ratio of gays vs. straights this is very troubling for straight males - but who cares about them, right?  Also, straight males commit suicide at a rate much higher than straight and gay women combined and men both straight and gay combined consist of over 80% of suicides.  This is all staggering. 

What can we do about preventing male suicide?

Edited by Hal 9000
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10 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

A wonderful essay by Dan Kaser that I hope people will read:  'What are Christians to do about those pesky gay children'.

He addresses a conversation that Franklin Graham and James Dobson had on a radio program about how they believe Christians and the church should respond to LGBT people and specifically to gay children.

Here are some excerpts:

 

Yes, it all sounds very logical from your perspective, to just accept it as normal.  But it is more complex and difficult than your article suggests..  You have offered no solution.

What would you say about someone who has become a drug addict?  Would you try to get him to seek counseling to get him off drugs or would you say he should be given drugs to feed his habit?  A drug addict cannot quit unless he is determined to quit and treatment won't work unless he makes a decision to quit.

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4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Yes, it all sounds very logical from your perspective, to just accept it as normal.  But it is more complex and difficult than your article suggests..  You have offered no solution.

What would you say about someone who has become a drug addict?  Would you try to get him to seek counseling to get him off drugs or would you say he should be given drugs to feed his habit?  A drug addict cannot quit unless he is determined to quit and treatment won't work unless he makes a decision to quit.

Of course such considerations are completely unrelated, and if I wasn't so difficult to offend, I might even say offensive.  I'll stick to calling them dumb.

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10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Of course such considerations are completely unrelated, and if I wasn't so difficult to offend, I might even say offensive.  I'll stick to calling them dumb.

Here is a detailed article on the subject and why it is a threat to society.

"

What does the Bible say about homosexuality?

 

by Matt Slickhomosexuality symbols

The Bible doesn't speak of homosexuality very often; but when it does, it condemns it as sin.  Let's take a look.

  • Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1
  • Leviticus 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them."
  • 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
  • Romans 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

Homosexuality is clearly condemned in the Bible.  It undermines God's created order where He made Adam and Eve, a man and a woman, to carry out his command to fill and subdue the earth (Genesis 1:28). Homosexuality cannot fulfill that mandate. Also, homosexuality undermines the basic family unit of husband and wife which is the God-ordained means of procreation.  Again, homosexuality cannot do that. And, believe it or not, homosexuality is also dangerous to society. (See Is homosexuality dangerous? for the statistics)

Homosexuality has a heavy judgment administered by God Himself upon those who commit it and support it.

Romans 1:26-27, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."

As a result of being "given over," they can no longer see the error of what they are doing.  They will not seek forgiveness, and they will not repent.  They will then die in their sins and face God's righteous condemnation. But, their rebellion against God does not stop there.  Those who are judged by God this way, also promote their sin and condemn others who don't approve of their behavior.

Romans 1:32, "...and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them."

So, in their "hearty approval" of homosexuality, they encourage others to accept their practice, and so their sin and rebellion against God spread. This means they will reject Christ's redemptive work on the cross.  Without Jesus, they will have no forgiveness.  Without forgiveness, they will have no salvation. Without salvation, there is only damnation in eternal hell.  We Christians don't want this for anyone.  We want them to experience the great love of God through the person and work of Christ who died for our sins (1 Peter 2:24).

Persecution of the non-politically correct?

The Bible's view of homosexuality is not politically correct - and this is a concern. Will the Bible soon be considered hate speech by the moral-less majority? There is already significant social pressure being put on the American populace to accept homosexuality as normal and healthy.  Homosexuality is promoted in movies, television, magazines, schools, etc. Social re-engineering is well underway. Yet statistically, only 3% of the population are homosexuals.2 Christians, on the other hand, occupy a far higher percentage, 70%3 yet they are not fairly represented in the media.  Instead, Christians are routinely portrayed as bigots, narrow-minded idiots, hypocrites, and worse. Why?  Because there are little tolerance and equality from the left for those who disagree with them.  The social attitude of America is slowly being engineered to accept liberal sexual behavior while condemning and silencing those who disagree.  Since behavior follows belief, what is to stop our increasingly liberal society from acting on its silence-the-opposition attitude and become more and more harsh in its dealings with Christians?  Nothing. In fact, there are increasing calls to get Christians kicked off of social networks for speaking out against homosexual marriage.  Silence the Christians! At work, many Bible believers are told to go through sensitivity training in favor of the LGBT community, even though such "sensitivity training" is highly offensive to them. If they don't go, they can be fired.  It seems that sensitivity must be shown towards the homosexuals, but never towards the Christians.  This hypocrisy is blatant and dangerous.

And then there is the increase in lawsuits.  Will homosexuals attend churches for the purpose of asking pastors to perform a wedding and then when they are refused, they sue?  Will they seek out Christian owned businesses and ask to have a cake baked, a wedding photographed, or music played at their homosexual wedding and then file a lawsuit when Christians who are holding to their religious convictions refuse to comply? It is already happening, and such legal attacks are on the increase.  In light of this, I suggest that you look at history to see what politically correct momentum can do in and to a society. Think of Nazi Germany and the Jews. Do some research on communist Russia and its persecution of dissenters in the 1900s.  History is full of examples of how those in politically correct power oppress those who don't agree with them. If you think the comparison is too extreme, then you join with many throughout history who said "It will never happen," and then sat by and watched it manifest.    Unquote

https://carm.org/bible-homosexuality

There is much more in this article about it.

 

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1 minute ago, blackbird said:

Here is a detailed article on the subject and why it is a threat to society.

"

What does the Bible say about homosexuality?

 

Obviously I would have no interest in what the Bible has to say about homosexuality.  Might as well as what Tom and Jerry think of it.

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